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filthy
SFN Die Hard

USA
14408 Posts

Posted - 05/25/2006 :  03:24:36   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send filthy a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Compassion

If the Bible is a book of myths, then evolution is the thought of a blind.

The Bible is not a myth - rather ALL historical records and scientific records show that the Bible is God-breathed and is made of facts and teachings. Evolution is made up for those who do not want to believe that someone is infinitely better than them. That is called ignorance and pride.

If you wonder why I believe in God, I can simply answer that God has answered ALL my prayers and healed people in know in my church, as well as myself and my friends. I know people that are great in faith and have been cured from cancer. God is almighty and answers at ALL TIMES.

Anecdotes do not comprise evidence. What scientific records? Lots of people have been cured of cancer, saint and reprobate alike. Please put forth some case studies. I suggest that you study this site. It will make things a little easier in that you won't fall into the logical fallacy traps.




"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)

"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres


"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude

Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,

and Crypto-Communist!

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moakley
SFN Regular

USA
1888 Posts

Posted - 05/25/2006 :  05:08:56   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send moakley a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by marfknox

If God heals all your prayers but putters out when scientists are actually paying attention, does that mean you're special in some way? I guess God didn't give a crap about all the people who die of cancer and pray their asses off.

That is it. That is exactly it. How does compassion justify these good people not having their prayers answered. Is it as beskeptigal pointed out in the opinion of the clergy, that they just didn't pray right. Now in addition to being sick, dying or already dead, you and your family are being insulted for not praying right. The world view and practices of the religious is certainly not cohesive nor consistent when it comes to reality.

quote:
Originally posted by marfknox

Historical records... exactly what historical records prove the Bible true? Because its pretty commonly known among educated people now that the vast majority of Bible stories are not supported by historical evidence. Even most Christian clergy admit that.

And how much of the bible was actually coopted from existing tradition. Rising from the dead may be a neat trick, but it definitely did not originate with the bible.

edited: Hey - How

Life is good

Philosophy is questions that may never be answered. Religion is answers that may never be questioned. -Anonymous
Edited by - moakley on 05/25/2006 05:10:05
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HalfMooner
Dingaling

Philippines
15831 Posts

Posted - 05/25/2006 :  05:37:42   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send HalfMooner a Private Message
moakley posted:
quote:
And how much of the bible was actually coopted from existing tradition. Rising from the dead may be a neat trick, but it definitely did not originate with the bible.
It's just plain creepy, too, almost in an Elron Hubbard-Jim Jones sense of creepy. A rabbi has a supper with this cult followers, and feeds them his own flesh and blood as the main dish. Then the bloody Romans torture the poor rabbi to death in one of the most horrific executions ever invented. But three days later, the guy's a zombie-god, popping out of his grave and ready to boogie. His disciples must have forgotten to inscribe "Rest in Peace" on the tombstone.

Definitely a Gothic-style fairy-tale. Of course, if you've read the Brothers Grimm, you'll know that kind is the best for delightfully scaring little children of all ages. Just like the Bible.


Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive.
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Paulos23
Skeptic Friend

USA
446 Posts

Posted - 05/25/2006 :  08:38:06   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Paulos23's Homepage Send Paulos23 a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Compassion

If the Bible is a book of myths, then evolution is the thought of a blind.


Maybe not all of it, but very little seams to be factual. Evolution on the other hand is based on solid observation and repeatable experimentation.

quote:

The Bible is not a myth - rather ALL historical records and scientific records show that the Bible is God-breathed and is made of facts and teachings.


Err, says who? Links please.

quote:

Evolution is made up for those who do not want to believe that someone is infinitely better than them. That is called ignorance and pride.


Not true. I do believe in God, and I think the scientists are right on about evolution. Does that make God lesser or greater?

quote:

If you wonder why I believe in God, I can simply answer that God has answered ALL my prayers


Then you must me rich and wealthy.

quote:

and healed people in know in my church, as well as myself and my friends. I know people that are great in faith and have been cured from cancer.


It has been shown that attitude does have a great effect on healing, an if you buck up your spirit by prayer, ok. I prefer a good comity myself.

And are you sure they where healed by 100% prayer? Or did their doctors help out?

quote:
God is almighty and answers at ALL TIMES.



Define answered. Giving you what you pray for?

You can go wrong by being too skeptical as readily as by being too trusting. -- Robert A. Heinlein

Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored. -- Aldous Huxley
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Robb
SFN Regular

USA
1223 Posts

Posted - 05/25/2006 :  09:55:25   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Robb a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Compassion

God is almighty and answers at ALL TIMES.

God does not answer every prayer, He did not answer Jesus prayer in the garden before his crucifixion. Or do you mean that he may answer by not answering? Prayer is not only for asking for things it is to build a relationship with God.

Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master. - George Washington
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Fripp
SFN Regular

USA
727 Posts

Posted - 05/25/2006 :  11:00:33   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Fripp a Private Message
Compression,

Why bother with hospitals, doctors, bandaids, medicines, etc? You get cut? PRAY for it to heal. You got a headache? PRAY for it to go away.

But why bother praying? God is all-knowing. He should know that he power is needed. Why is more prayer better than one. God should be able to see by one mere prayer what needs to be done. Why does he let some suffer, especially god-fearing folks. He obviously plays favorites.

"What the hell is an Aluminum Falcon?"

"Oh, I'm sorry. I thought my Dark Lord of the Sith could protect a small thermal exhaust port that's only 2-meters wide! That thing wasn't even fully paid off yet! You have any idea what this is going to do to my credit?!?!"

"What? Oh, oh, 'just rebuild it'? Oh, real [bleep]ing original. And who's gonna give me a loan, jackhole? You? You got an ATM on that torso LiteBrite?"
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BigPapaSmurf
SFN Die Hard

3192 Posts

Posted - 05/25/2006 :  11:58:12   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send BigPapaSmurf a Private Message
God has answered all of my prayers as well, what a coincidence. Of course I have prayed 0 times, but hey my new TV is awesome, thanks God.

Its a good thing God loves Americans more than Africans. Darf-what now?

"...things I have neither seen nor experienced nor heard tell of from anybody else; things, what is more, that do not in fact exist and could not ever exist at all. So my readers must not believe a word I say." -Lucian on his book True History

"...They accept such things on faith alone, without any evidence. So if a fraudulent and cunning person who knows how to take advantage of a situation comes among them, he can make himself rich in a short time." -Lucian critical of early Christians c.166 AD From his book, De Morte Peregrini
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Compassion
New Member

8 Posts

Posted - 05/25/2006 :  19:08:48   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Compassion a Private Message
God has healed them all with his OWN might and power, and he healed them so that his glory might be shown in his name. Neither did they take medicine, nor did the doctors do anything.

God is beyond understanding, just as evolutionists believe that "nothing" existed "beyond." But it is different. God will not always say yes. As a matter of fact, God is just. Did God let anyone live and remain on the earth forever? It is set for all man to die, until the judgment day.

Robb, that's what I meant. Since prayer is not begging, it can be depicted as a conversation with God. But God's answer is usually not revealed through words, but actions. What happens to you and the things around you all depend on God.

Are YOU going to heaven? Read the Bible, God's Word, to find out the truth. God is filled with compassion for you, His creation, and will reach out to bring you salvation. He sent his son, Christ Jesus, as a substitute for your sins. Accept Christ into your heart once and for all to be saved. God's deliverance from death for you is here!
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marfknox
SFN Die Hard

USA
3739 Posts

Posted - 05/25/2006 :  19:50:28   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit marfknox's Homepage  Send marfknox an AOL message Send marfknox a Private Message
Compassion, are you going to actually respond to anything people are saying, or are you just going to continue making incredibly vague and nonsensical statements about the topic in general?

"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong

Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com

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marfknox
SFN Die Hard

USA
3739 Posts

Posted - 05/25/2006 :  20:02:15   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit marfknox's Homepage  Send marfknox an AOL message Send marfknox a Private Message
quote:
God has healed them all with his OWN might and power, and he healed them so that his glory might be shown in his name.
If God wants glory, if we wants people to recognize that he acts in the natural world, then why don't any of the many studies of prayer-healing shown any positive results?

quote:
Neither did they take medicine, nor did the doctors do anything.
Are these incidents documented anywhere or are we just supposed to believe these stories (that completely lack any details) based on the account of some anonymous dude on an Internet forum?

quote:
God is beyond understanding,
Yup, so you really can't claim that he healed anyone. He's beyond understanding, remember?

quote:
just as evolutionists believe that "nothing" existed "beyond."
Not sure what you are quoting from. Evolutionists believe that nothing existed beyond? Most people who accept evolutionary theory of believers in either God or supernatural realms that transcend the natural world. So you are either ignorant or telling lies about "evolutionists".

quote:
But it is different. God will not always say yes. As a matter of fact, God is just. Did God let anyone live and remain on the earth forever? It is set for all man to die, until the judgment day.
Hey, now, I thought you just said that God was beyond understanding? You're claiming a hell of a lot of understanding about God.

quote:
But God's answer is usually not revealed through words, but actions. What happens to you and the things around you all depend on God.
There you go trying to understand God again. If we can't understand God then why would he bother ever answering us. It's not like we can properly understand his answers.

If there is a God, he either doesn't get involved in the natural world once he's created it or he gets involved in a way that cannot be detected by mankind. Personal spiritual experiences are not sound evidence, and they are not any kind of evidence for people who haven't had the spiritual experience.

"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong

Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com

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Paulos23
Skeptic Friend

USA
446 Posts

Posted - 05/25/2006 :  22:06:45   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Paulos23's Homepage Send Paulos23 a Private Message
Dang marfknox, I really can't add to that. Good one.

You can go wrong by being too skeptical as readily as by being too trusting. -- Robert A. Heinlein

Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored. -- Aldous Huxley
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Starman
SFN Regular

Sweden
1613 Posts

Posted - 05/26/2006 :  01:55:35   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Starman a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Robb

God does not answer every prayer, ...
I could accept that but with the vast amount of people praying, shouldn't the effects of prayer be statistically measurable?

How could prayer have an effect on the natural world, without this being measurable?

"Any religion that makes a form of torture into an icon that they worship seems to me a pretty sick sort of religion quite honestly"
-- Terry Jones
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moakley
SFN Regular

USA
1888 Posts

Posted - 05/26/2006 :  04:51:58   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send moakley a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Compassion

God has healed them all with his OWN might and power, and he healed them so that his glory might be shown in his name. Neither did they take medicine, nor did the doctors do anything.

God is beyond understanding ... God will not always say yes ... God is just ... Did God let anyone live and remain on the earth forever ...

prayer is a conversation with God. But God's answer is usually not revealed through words, but actions. What happens to you and the things around you all depend on God.

As marfknox pointed out, you sure have a lot to say about how your God works considering how you also consider your God to be beyond understanding. Seems like your God is a known unknowable and that passing along any God assertions as Truth is dishonest at best.

Life is good

Philosophy is questions that may never be answered. Religion is answers that may never be questioned. -Anonymous
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Robb
SFN Regular

USA
1223 Posts

Posted - 05/26/2006 :  05:34:36   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Robb a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Starman

quote:
Originally posted by Robb

God does not answer every prayer, ...
I could accept that but with the vast amount of people praying, shouldn't the effects of prayer be statistically measurable?

How could prayer have an effect on the natural world, without this being measurable?

I thnk it is and can be measurable. Mostly by devotion to God. Prayer is a communication with God that increases our faith and understanding. The best prayers are just telling God how you feel.

Most christians beleive God can heal people of illness. Go to a church and ask if anybody has been miraculously healed. If so, ask those people about it. If in Ft Worth drop by our church and I can put you in touch with people that have been healed. Now, I know that any of these cases cannot be proved that it was God that healed them, but there has not been a scientific explaination for them either.

Most people here agree that God cannot be proven to exist by science because God is not in the realm of science. So why do you think there should be scientific proof of prayer? What would you accept as scientific proof?

Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master. - George Washington
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filthy
SFN Die Hard

USA
14408 Posts

Posted - 05/26/2006 :  06:11:06   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send filthy a Private Message
"Pray in one hand, piss in the other, and see which one fills up first."

I don't know who came up with that -- hell, maybe I did. It sounds like something I might say.

I fear our friend Compassion is here to preach rather than discuss. Preaching is all well and good if one has a receptive audience such as a congregation of like minds. Unfortunately, the minds here range from sane and reasonable believers in several faiths, to critical agnostics, to those unbelievers who have blasphemy as second tongue and heresy as their cradle language, and to whom nothing is sacred. But I've gotta give him/her medium-high marks for the effort.

Compassion, here's what you need to do: round up your references that have the strongest evidential support and present them, with links, in an appropriate thread; or open a new thread for it. I ask for the links because, unlike most other fora, here we will open and critique them, and the library is too far to go just to back-check your statements. In short, common courtesy demands that you provide this information. I do it almost as a reflex, as do the other regulars here.

There is a certain advantage for you in this. As you go through your references, you might discover that your premise is weak and best abandoned. Or, you might find food for more thought that can lead you to stronger support for that premise. Try it. It's not only informative, but fun. After all, what could be more fun, or profitable, than learning?



All Glory to the Hypnotoad!




"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)

"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres


"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude

Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,

and Crypto-Communist!

Edited by - filthy on 05/26/2006 06:16:02
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