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 Another transitional fossil...
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Dave W.
Info Junkie

USA
26014 Posts

Posted - 05/06/2006 :  23:31:01   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Dave W.'s Homepage Send Dave W. a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by verlch

Nice guys. Another half a fossil and a drawing to boot! In genius, explains how the whole entity came to life. Gave himself skin, bones, a heart, a brain, with everything that went with it.

The above from a guy who thinks that evolutionary theory states that while one fish evolved into (for example) shrews, a completely different fish evolved into elephants. verlch is the undisputed king of the strawmen.

- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
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filthy
SFN Die Hard

USA
14408 Posts

Posted - 05/07/2006 :  03:58:05   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send filthy a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by verlch

Nice guys. Another half a fossil and a drawing to boot! In genius, explains how the whole entity came to life. Gave himself skin, bones, a heart, a brain, with everything that went with it.

This, this fact of evolutionary science, is there any actually testing and observing of creatures in the transitional stages? Or is it all fully formed creatures?

O ye with skull of solid titainium, it is (was) a fully-formed creature that represents a transitional species. It is (was) a fish out of water, a lobefin fish with the proper bones in the lobes to eventually, hundreds of thousands of generations away, become limbs. At that point, it would become an amphibian in the water part-time. How is that so difficult to grasp?

Why verlch, that fossil could be our ancient cousin, or even our granny. Show a little respect!




"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)

"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres


"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude

Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,

and Crypto-Communist!

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filthy
SFN Die Hard

USA
14408 Posts

Posted - 05/07/2006 :  08:15:54   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send filthy a Private Message
This fossil is such a splendid find! I've no doubt that there is still a great deal to be learned from it, especially if more examples are discovered.

But y'know, it kind'a puts the tellers of the Noah yarn in an awkward, even embarrasing situation. Here we have an animal that is not mentioned in any text, religious or otherwise, and only very recently in modern writings. This animal breathed air and walked the land, albeit clumsily. Someone correct me if I am wrong, but doesn't this qualify it for a berth on the Ark? I rather think so. And indeed, what with all of the metaphysical odd-balls described in the Bible, one would think that the authors would at least include such a beast in their stories.

A pity it's too small to have swallered Jonah.....

But the YECs tell us (endlessly) that dinosaurs and mastodons sailed with Noah, so I ask: what of T. roseae? Were they kept in the bilges so their skins wouldn't entirely dry out? And if such as Tiktaalik was qualified for Arkness, where does that leave this guy?



Oh, wait, mudskippers don't breath air...... My bad.




"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)

"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres


"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude

Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,

and Crypto-Communist!

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Hawks
SFN Regular

Canada
1383 Posts

Posted - 05/07/2006 :  14:17:21   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Hawks's Homepage Send Hawks a Private Message
quote:
This, this fact of evolutionary science, is there any actually testing and observing of creatures in the transitional stages? Or is it all fully formed creatures?

Stop it, you're killing me!!!

METHINKS IT IS LIKE A WEASEL
It's a small, off-duty czechoslovakian traffic warden!
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pleco
SFN Addict

USA
2998 Posts

Posted - 05/07/2006 :  16:38:23   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit pleco's Homepage Send pleco a Private Message
I would love to hear what some people think a transitional creature is, and what it would look like. I'm thinking something comic-book like, or perhaps something from a 1950s movie that would be great fodder for Mystery Science Theater 3000 (RIP)?

by Filthy
The neo-con methane machine will soon be running at full fart.
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Dude
SFN Die Hard

USA
6891 Posts

Posted - 05/09/2006 :  01:13:59   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Dude a Private Message
Whenever you mention transitional fossils, you inevitably get some YEC who thinks that such a thing should be a less than complete organism that has the head of a dog and the ass-end of a fish...

They just can't wrap their tiny little brains around several of the concepts involved, like deep time, multiple transitional stages across time (of which our record is vastly incomplete), and so on.

They just can't mentally handle the truth when it contradicts their infallible book.


Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson

"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin

Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth
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verlch
SFN Regular

781 Posts

Posted - 05/16/2006 :  10:37:54   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Send verlch an AOL message Send verlch a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Dave W.

quote:
Originally posted by verlch

Nice guys. Another half a fossil and a drawing to boot! In genius, explains how the whole entity came to life. Gave himself skin, bones, a heart, a brain, with everything that went with it.

The above from a guy who thinks that evolutionary theory states that while one fish evolved into (for example) shrews, a completely different fish evolved into elephants. verlch is the undisputed king of the strawmen.




So, let me get this straight, only humans evolved from fish?

What did monkeys evolve from? What transitional fish?

Big huge dinosaurs, how did they climb out of the primordial Soup, and create themselves from nothing to become huge complex creatures, without any origins, or design from an intelligent being, that was alive to supervise the events.

What came first the chicken or the egg?

How do plants exist without bugs in the soil, and bugs in the soil without plants producing oxygen?

There are no atheists in foxholes

Underlying the evolutionary theory is not just the classic "stuff" of science conclusions arrived at through prolonged observation and experimentation. Evolution is first an atheistic, materialistic world view. In other words, the primary reason for its acceptance has little to do with the evidence for or against it. Evolution is accepted because men are atheists by faith and thus interpret the evidence to cor-respond to their naturalistic philosophy.

For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables. II Timothy 4:3,4

II Thess. 2:11 And for this cause God shall
send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

You can not see the 'wind', but you can see its effect!!!!

Evolution was caused by genetic mistakes at each stage?

Radical Evolution has 500 million years to find fossils of fictional drawings of (hard core)missing links, yet they find none.

We have not seen such moral darkness since the dark ages, coencides with
teaching evolution in schools. (Moral darkness)

For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places, EPH 6:12.

"Thus, many scientists embracing naturalism find themselves in the seeming dilemma recently articulated by biochemist Franklin Harold: "We should reject, as a matter of principle, the substitution of intelligent design for the dialogue of chance and necessity [i.e., Darwinian evolution]; but we must concede that there are presently no detailed Darwinian accounts of the evolution of any biochemical system, only a variety of wishful speculations."
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verlch
SFN Regular

781 Posts

Posted - 05/16/2006 :  10:43:34   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Send verlch an AOL message Send verlch a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Dude

Whenever you mention transitional fossils, you inevitably get some YEC who thinks that such a thing should be a less than complete organism that has the head of a dog and the ass-end of a fish...

They just can't wrap their tiny little brains around several of the concepts involved, like deep time, multiple transitional stages across time (of which our record is vastly incomplete), and so on.

They just can't mentally handle the truth when it contradicts their infallible book.





http://www.jesusplusnothing.com/prophecy.htm

That is some good prophecy for Christians.

In the gospels the disciples were eye witnesses to these events. They wrote down what they saw.

Jesus died on a cross, that is proven. Does anybody die for a cause they do not believe in?

Would you guys die to defend your believe in Evolution, with a sword to your throat?

I have not found one yet that would stand by their believes over death.

Yet 11 of Jesus disciples choose death, than rather to change their minds about what they had seen. Peter being hung upside down on a cross.

What came first the chicken or the egg?

How do plants exist without bugs in the soil, and bugs in the soil without plants producing oxygen?

There are no atheists in foxholes

Underlying the evolutionary theory is not just the classic "stuff" of science conclusions arrived at through prolonged observation and experimentation. Evolution is first an atheistic, materialistic world view. In other words, the primary reason for its acceptance has little to do with the evidence for or against it. Evolution is accepted because men are atheists by faith and thus interpret the evidence to cor-respond to their naturalistic philosophy.

For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables. II Timothy 4:3,4

II Thess. 2:11 And for this cause God shall
send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

You can not see the 'wind', but you can see its effect!!!!

Evolution was caused by genetic mistakes at each stage?

Radical Evolution has 500 million years to find fossils of fictional drawings of (hard core)missing links, yet they find none.

We have not seen such moral darkness since the dark ages, coencides with
teaching evolution in schools. (Moral darkness)

For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places, EPH 6:12.

"Thus, many scientists embracing naturalism find themselves in the seeming dilemma recently articulated by biochemist Franklin Harold: "We should reject, as a matter of principle, the substitution of intelligent design for the dialogue of chance and necessity [i.e., Darwinian evolution]; but we must concede that there are presently no detailed Darwinian accounts of the evolution of any biochemical system, only a variety of wishful speculations."
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie

USA
4826 Posts

Posted - 05/16/2006 :  12:24:48   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Valiant Dancer's Homepage Send Valiant Dancer a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by verlch

quote:
Originally posted by Dude

Whenever you mention transitional fossils, you inevitably get some YEC who thinks that such a thing should be a less than complete organism that has the head of a dog and the ass-end of a fish...

They just can't wrap their tiny little brains around several of the concepts involved, like deep time, multiple transitional stages across time (of which our record is vastly incomplete), and so on.

They just can't mentally handle the truth when it contradicts their infallible book.





http://www.jesusplusnothing.com/prophecy.htm

That is some good prophecy for Christians.

In the gospels the disciples were eye witnesses to these events. They wrote down what they saw.

Jesus died on a cross, that is proven. Does anybody die for a cause they do not believe in?


So did the Branch Davidians and Heaven's Gate folks. Does that make them right?

quote:

Would you guys die to defend your believe in Evolution, with a sword to your throat?

I have not found one yet that would stand by their believes over death.

Yet 11 of Jesus disciples choose death, than rather to change their minds about what they had seen. Peter being hung upside down on a cross.




Absofuckinglutely. I'm sure that the Christofacists would hesitate before striking me down. Just to show compassion. That is if I'm not killed by the stromtroopers first. I'll be sure to take as many of them with me as I can.

Never again, the burning times.

Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils

Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion
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filthy
SFN Die Hard

USA
14408 Posts

Posted - 05/16/2006 :  12:37:34   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send filthy a Private Message

quote:

http://www.jesusplusnothing.com/prophecy.htm



quote:
That is some good prophecy for Christians.

How so? Looked like a variation on the same, ol' thing to me.

quote:
In the gospels the disciples were eye witnesses to these events. They wrote down what they saw.

And......?
quote:
Jesus died on a cross, that is proven. Does anybody die for a cause they do not believe in?

Many do. Ask the 'Nam vets and the soldiers in Iraq.
quote:
Would you guys die to defend your believe in Evolution, with a sword to your throat?

Hell no! How stupid do you think we are? If you've got to die for a cause, let it be an important one in the service of your people.
quote:
I have not found one yet that would stand by their believes over death.

Death is merely the end of life, and life is all we have, various lunatics to the contrary. The silly concepts of Heaven and Hell have yet to be shown as anything but anecdotes.
quote:
Yet 11 of Jesus disciples choose death, than rather to change their minds about what they had seen. Peter being hung upside down on a cross.


See the above answer -- there are lunatics on all sides of the question. Crucifixions were carried out by many methods and a head down one was not remarkable. Some were done with an extra nail driven through the genitals.




"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)

"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres


"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude

Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,

and Crypto-Communist!

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Dave W.
Info Junkie

USA
26014 Posts

Posted - 05/16/2006 :  13:57:45   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Dave W.'s Homepage Send Dave W. a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by verlch

So, let me get this straight, only humans evolved from fish?
Quite the opposite.
quote:
What did monkeys evolve from? What transitional fish?
Same one that humans and the rest of the mammals evolved from.
quote:
Big huge dinosaurs, how did they climb out of the primordial Soup, and create themselves from nothing to become huge complex creatures, without any origins, or design from an intelligent being, that was alive to supervise the events.
Who said they had no origins?
quote:
Would you guys die to defend your believe in Evolution, with a sword to your throat?
Of course not, since evolution isn't a belief. If I were "denounce" evolution due to a death threat, it wouldn't change the fact of evolution whatsoever.

That's why your god is so pathetic, verlch: those 11 disciples thought that their god was so weak that if they doubted his existence, he would vanish. And they were right.

Scientists don't have such problems. Reality will go on being reality no matter who "believes" in it or no matter who denies it with a sword to their throat.

Hey, V-man: tell us again the one about how Christians have been put to death by scientists, or how nobody's ever burned a copy of On the Origins of Species. Those stories of yours always gave me a good chuckle.

- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too.
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Dave W.
Info Junkie

USA
26014 Posts

Posted - 05/16/2006 :  17:25:58   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Dave W.'s Homepage Send Dave W. a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by verlch

Would you guys die to defend your believe in Evolution, with a sword to your throat?

I have not found one yet that would stand by their believes over death.
Thinking about this some more, I've realized how alarming it is.

Group A won't ask members of group B to defend their beliefs at knife-point unless group A feels profoundly threatened by group B. Back when Christianity was just starting out (and disciples were being crucified), Christians were subversives whose beliefs really did threaten the security of their Roman oppressors. "Follow Jesus and gain eternal life" is a powerful tease which threatened to rip authority from the rulers of the age. Spitting in the faces of the establishment by defending Christ under threat of death served a valuable purpose, that of generating martyrs for the cause and further undermining the government's ability to govern. I have little doubt that all of this political machinery was self-evident to those Christians involved.

Evolution, on the other hand, attempts to undermine precisely nothing. It threatens nobody overtly. And it seems the majority of people who feel threatened by it are those who don't understand it (witness verlch), followed by a smaller group who may or may not understand it but believe that it is so contradictory to their narrow religious views that to grant it even a hint of validation would be akin to rubbing salt in Jesus' crucifixtion wounds (witness verlch). Note that evolution doesn't, itself, address such issues - it simply appears threatening to these people.

It is, really, only the Christian fundamentalists who would be so threatened by evolution as to ask a person - a prominent scientist, for example - to denounce evolution or die. They're the ones who invented the "Darwin recanted on his deathbed" story, after all, and they're so indoctrinated with "death for your beliefs" persecution complexes that they see such martyrdom as being a guage of how "correct" a belief really is.

But the idea that "denounce or die" is a meaningful method of measuring the accuracy of a belief (used loosely, whether it's a religious belief or a scientific theory) is quite terrifying. That verlch even thinks it's a reasonable hypothetical suggests there's something truly broken about his ideas of morality and faith.

verlch, the number of Christians who have died at the hands of evolutionary scientists engaged in research about evolution because the Christian wouldn't renounce his faith in Christ is zero. Why is it that you think that even a single evolutionary scientist dying for Darwin because he/she refused to convert to your brand of Christianity would mean something other than that fundamentalists are brutish thugs who can only get their way through violence?

- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too.
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filthy
SFN Die Hard

USA
14408 Posts

Posted - 05/16/2006 :  17:37:30   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send filthy a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Dave W.

quote:
Originally posted by verlch

Would you guys die to defend your believe in Evolution, with a sword to your throat?

I have not found one yet that would stand by their believes over death.
Thinking about this some more, I've realized how alarming it is.

Group A won't ask members of group B to defend their beliefs at knife-point unless group A feels profoundly threatened by group B. Back when Christianity was just starting out (and disciples were being crucified), Christians were subversives whose beliefs really did threaten the security of their Roman oppressors. "Follow Jesus and gain eternal life" is a powerful tease which threatened to rip authority from the rulers of the age. Spitting in the faces of the establishment by defending Christ under threat of death served a valuable purpose, that of generating martyrs for the cause and further undermining the government's ability to govern. I have little doubt that all of this political machinery was self-evident to those Christians involved.

Evolution, on the other hand, attempts to undermine precisely nothing. It threatens nobody overtly. And it seems the majority of people who feel threatened by it are those who don't understand it (witness verlch), followed by a smaller group who may or may not understand it but believe that it is so contradictory to their narrow religious views that to grant it even a hint of validation would be akin to rubbing salt in Jesus' crucifixtion wounds (witness verlch). Note that evolution doesn't, itself, address such issues - it simply appears threatening to these people.

It is, really, only the Christian fundamentalists who would be so threatened by evolution as to ask a person - a prominent scientist, for example - to denounce evolution or die. They're the ones who invented the "Darwin recanted on his deathbed" story, after all, and they're so indoctrinated with "death for your beliefs" persecution complexes that they see such martyrdom as being a guage of how "correct" a belief really is.

But the idea that "denounce or die" is a meaningful method of measuring the accuracy of a belief (used loosely, whether it's a religious belief or a scientific theory) is quite terrifying. That verlch even thinks it's a reasonable hypothetical suggests there's something truly broken about his ideas of morality and faith.

verlch, the number of Christians who have died at the hands of evolutionary scientists engaged in research about evolution because the Christian wouldn't renounce his faith in Christ is zero. Why is it that you think that even a single evolutionary scientist dying for Darwin because he/she refused to convert to your brand of Christianity would mean something other than that fundamentalists are brutish thugs who can only get their way through violence?

Now there's a PotM if ever I saw one!




"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)

"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres


"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude

Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,

and Crypto-Communist!

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Dave W.
Info Junkie

USA
26014 Posts

Posted - 05/16/2006 :  17:56:01   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Dave W.'s Homepage Send Dave W. a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by filthy

Now there's a PotM if ever I saw one!
Thanks!

- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too.
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R.Wreck
SFN Regular

USA
1191 Posts

Posted - 05/16/2006 :  18:47:56   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send R.Wreck a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by verlch:

Does anybody die for a cause they do not believe in?

Would you guys die to defend your believe in Evolution, with a sword to your throat?

I have not found one yet that would stand by their believes over death.

Yet 11 of Jesus disciples choose death, than rather to change their minds about what they had seen. Peter being hung upside down on a cross.



So by your logic (if one could call it that), you could make the argument that Allah is the one true god, because so many are willing to die for their belief. You never cease to amaze, V.

The foundation of morality is to . . . give up pretending to believe that for which there is no evidence, and repeating unintelligible propositions about things beyond the possibliities of knowledge.
T. H. Huxley

The Cattle Prod of Enlightened Compassion
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