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HalfMooner
Dingaling

Philippines
15831 Posts

Posted - 05/22/2006 :  13:46:12  Show Profile Send HalfMooner a Private Message
An article on the AAAS's Website throws new light upon the difficult abiogenesis issue, which has been touched upon in these fora:
quote:
Microbe Gives Clues to Origin of Life

By Betsy Mason
ScienceNOW Daily News
19 May 2006
One of the most vexing questions facing biologists is how life on Earth first emerged. Now, research on a methane-producing microbe has led to a novel theory that could breathe new life into the field and help two opposing theories find common ground.

On a simple level, the origin-of-life debate comes down to a question of how the first complex molecules came to be. The so-called heterotrophic hypothesis says that life arose from an organic soup of small molecules that were either brought to Earth by extraterrestrial objects or were produced through lightning-triggered reactions that combined gasses. Life originated when these smaller molecules assembled into larger molecules such as RNA and proteins. On the other hand, the chemoautotrophic hypothesis posits that iron sulfide reactions released hydrogen, which combined with carbon dioxide in the atmosphere to form organic compounds. These in turn gave rise to more complex molecules.

One problem with both hypotheses is that they don't have a reasonable source of energy for putting the larger molecules together. The heterotrophic theory ignores the issue, and the chemoautotrophic theory relies on extremely complicated enzymes that were unlikely to have already evolved.

An unusual microbe may give both sides hope. While microbial biochemist James Ferry and geomicrobiologist Christopher House of Pennsylvania State University in State College were studying the Methanosarcina acetivorans microbe, they noticed that it had a unique biochemistry: Many of the oldest bacteria on Earth can convert carbon monoxide into methane, but this microbe has the added ability to produce acetate from carbon monoxide as well.

Ferry and House suggest that the first metabolism involved two ancient enzymes found in this microbe that help produce the acetate. In a hypothetical ancient "protocell," excreted acetate would react with iron sulfides outside of the cell to form a sulfide-containing derivative known as an acetate thioester. The protocell would then take this in and break it down to acetate, completing the loop. A key part of the idea is that the formation of acetate inside the cell creates energy-rich molecules known as ATP that could provide the energy needed to combine small molecules into bigger ones. While the theory doesn't completely resolve the origin-of-life debate, it provides a common source of energy for both sides and could be a useful starting point for a compromise, the authors report in the June issue of Molecular Biology and Evolution.

. . .


Simple life.
The Methanosarcina acetivorans microbe
may provide clues to where the energy
that helped life evolve came from.


Credit: Pennsylvania State University

Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive.

Dude
SFN Die Hard

USA
6891 Posts

Posted - 05/23/2006 :  00:02:06   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Dude a Private Message
Good stuff!


Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson

"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin

Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth
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filthy
SFN Die Hard

USA
14408 Posts

Posted - 05/23/2006 :  01:48:23   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send filthy a Private Message
Yes, very interesting. I'll keep an eye peeled for further results.




"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)

"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres


"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude

Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,

and Crypto-Communist!

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Bill scott
SFN Addict

USA
2103 Posts

Posted - 05/23/2006 :  07:08:14   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Bill scott a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by HalfMooner

An article on the AAAS's Website throws new light upon the difficult abiogenesis issue, which has been touched upon in these foraMicrobe Gives Clues to Origin of Life

By Betsy Mason
ScienceNOW Daily News
19 May 2006
One of the most vexing questions facing biologists is how life on Earth first emerged.




quote:
Now, research on a methane-producing microbe has led to a novel theory that could breathe new life into the field and help two opposing theories find common ground.


(bill) Where did the methane-producing microbe come from?



quote:
On a simple level, the origin-of-life debate comes down to a question of how the first complex molecules came to be. The so-called heterotrophic hypothesis says that life arose from an organic soup of small molecules that were either brought to Earth by extraterrestrial objects


(bill) Where did the organic soup of small molecules come from? Where did the Earth come from that was the giant bowl for the primordial soup? Where did the extraterrestrial objects come from? Where did outer space come from?


quote:
or were produced through lightning-triggered reactions that combined gasses.


(bill) Where did this lightning and gases come from?


quote:
Life originated when these smaller molecules assembled into larger molecules such as RNA and proteins


(bill) Is Betsy stating this as fact of theory?

quote:
On the other hand, the chemoautotrophic hypothesis posits that iron sulfide reactions released hydrogen, which combined with carbon dioxide in the atmosphere to form organic compounds. These in turn gave rise to more complex molecules.


(bill) Where did the iron sulfide, hydrogen, and carbon dioxide come from?



quote:
While the theory doesn't completely resolve the origin-of-life debate,


(bill) To say the least...


quote:
it provides a common source of energy for both sides and could be a useful starting point for a compromise, the authors report in the June issue of Molecular Biology and Evolution.


(bill) Starting point? I thought this was new information on life's origins? This piece begins in the middle of the story with the starting point not even mentioned.



"Lets get one thing clear, Bill. Science does make some assumptions." -perrodetokio-

"In the end as skeptics we must realize that there is no real knowledge, there is only what is most reasonable to believe." -Coelacanth-

The fact that humans do science is what causes errors in science. -Dave W.-

Edited by - Bill scott on 05/23/2006 07:13:30
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pleco
SFN Addict

USA
2996 Posts

Posted - 05/23/2006 :  07:37:05   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit pleco's Homepage Send pleco a Private Message
Bill, why don't you tell us your theory about how it all got started?

by Filthy
The neo-con methane machine will soon be running at full fart.
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend

Sweden
9677 Posts

Posted - 05/23/2006 :  07:41:31   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Send Dr. Mabuse an ICQ Message Send Dr. Mabuse a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Bill scott
quote:
it provides a common source of energy for both sides and could be a useful starting point for a compromise, the authors report in the June issue of Molecular Biology and Evolution.


(bill) Starting point? I thought this was new information on life's origins? This piece begins in the middle of the story with the starting point not even mentioned.


Blue emphasis mine.
If your reading comprehension is that bad, then I'm not surprised that you have trouble coping with any and all sciences. It's much easier to sit in front of a minister and like a sponge suck up whatever tripe he spews forth.


Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3

"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse

Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder.
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Bill scott
SFN Addict

USA
2103 Posts

Posted - 05/23/2006 :  07:58:46   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Bill scott a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Dr. Mabuse

quote:
Originally posted by Bill scott
quote:
it provides a common source of energy for both sides and could be a useful starting point for a compromise, the authors report in the June issue of Molecular Biology and Evolution.


(bill) Starting point? I thought this was new information on life's origins? This piece begins in the middle of the story with the starting point not even mentioned.


Blue emphasis mine.
If your reading comprehension is that bad, then I'm not surprised that you have trouble coping with any and all sciences. It's much easier to sit in front of a minister and like a sponge suck up whatever tripe he spews forth.





Non-sense doc. Those were all perfectly acceptable questions regarding the science of Betsy's piece. Of course that is if science is what you are truly interested in and not just pushing some just-so story based upon a hypothesis upon a hypothesis based upon some theory...


As the avid skeptic that you say you are I am very surprised that it was not you who asked where the primordial pond or the methane-producing microbe came from? I know the skeptic in me begged to ask the question...

"Lets get one thing clear, Bill. Science does make some assumptions." -perrodetokio-

"In the end as skeptics we must realize that there is no real knowledge, there is only what is most reasonable to believe." -Coelacanth-

The fact that humans do science is what causes errors in science. -Dave W.-

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Bill scott
SFN Addict

USA
2103 Posts

Posted - 05/23/2006 :  08:04:22   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Bill scott a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by pleco

Bill, why don't you tell us your theory about how it all got started?




Because the subject was methane-producing microbes and their part in the origins of life and not Bill's personal abiogenesis theory.

"Lets get one thing clear, Bill. Science does make some assumptions." -perrodetokio-

"In the end as skeptics we must realize that there is no real knowledge, there is only what is most reasonable to believe." -Coelacanth-

The fact that humans do science is what causes errors in science. -Dave W.-

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Kil
Evil Skeptic

USA
13463 Posts

Posted - 05/23/2006 :  08:48:02   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Kil's Homepage  Send Kil an AOL message  Send Kil a Yahoo! Message Send Kil a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Bill scott

quote:
Originally posted by HalfMooner

An article on the AAAS's Website throws new light upon the difficult abiogenesis issue, which has been touched upon in these foraMicrobe Gives Clues to Origin of Life

By Betsy Mason
ScienceNOW Daily News
19 May 2006
One of the most vexing questions facing biologists is how life on Earth first emerged.




quote:
Now, research on a methane-producing microbe has led to a novel theory that could breathe new life into the field and help two opposing theories find common ground.


(bill) Where did the methane-producing microbe come from?



quote:
On a simple level, the origin-of-life debate comes down to a question of how the first complex molecules came to be. The so-called heterotrophic hypothesis says that life arose from an organic soup of small molecules that were either brought to Earth by extraterrestrial objects


(bill) Where did the organic soup of small molecules come from? Where did the Earth come from that was the giant bowl for the primordial soup? Where did the extraterrestrial objects come from? Where did outer space come from?


quote:
or were produced through lightning-triggered reactions that combined gasses.


(bill) Where did this lightning and gases come from?


quote:
Life originated when these smaller molecules assembled into larger molecules such as RNA and proteins


(bill) Is Betsy stating this as fact of theory?

quote:
On the other hand, the chemoautotrophic hypothesis posits that iron sulfide reactions released hydrogen, which combined with carbon dioxide in the atmosphere to form organic compounds. These in turn gave rise to more complex molecules.


(bill) Where did the iron sulfide, hydrogen, and carbon dioxide come from?



quote:
While the theory doesn't completely resolve the origin-of-life debate,


(bill) To say the least...


quote:
it provides a common source of energy for both sides and could be a useful starting point for a compromise, the authors report in the June issue of Molecular Biology and Evolution.


(bill) Starting point? I thought this was new information on life's origins? This piece begins in the middle of the story with the starting point not

Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.

Why not question something for a change?

Genetic Literacy Project
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pleco
SFN Addict

USA
2996 Posts

Posted - 05/23/2006 :  09:13:38   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit pleco's Homepage Send pleco a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Bill scott

quote:
Originally posted by pleco

Bill, why don't you tell us your theory about how it all got started?




Because the subject was methane-producing microbes and their part in the origins of life and not Bill's personal abiogenesis theory.



True.

Okay, here you go, your own thread. Please fire away:

http://www.skepticfriends.org/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=6170

by Filthy
The neo-con methane machine will soon be running at full fart.
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie

USA
4826 Posts

Posted - 05/23/2006 :  09:42:17   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Valiant Dancer's Homepage Send Valiant Dancer a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Bill scott

quote:
Originally posted by Dr. Mabuse

quote:
Originally posted by Bill scott
quote:
it provides a common source of energy for both sides and could be a useful starting point for a compromise, the authors report in the June issue of Molecular Biology and Evolution.


(bill) Starting point? I thought this was new information on life's origins? This piece begins in the middle of the story with the starting point not even mentioned.


Blue emphasis mine.
If your reading comprehension is that bad, then I'm not surprised that you have trouble coping with any and all sciences. It's much easier to sit in front of a minister and like a sponge suck up whatever tripe he spews forth.





Non-sense doc. Those were all perfectly acceptable questions regarding the science of Betsy's piece. Of course that is if science is what you are truly interested in and not just pushing some just-so story based upon a hypothesis upon a hypothesis based upon some theory...


As the avid skeptic that you say you are I am very surprised that it was not you who asked where the primordial pond or the methane-producing microbe came from? I know the skeptic in me begged to ask the question...



(snork) skeptic. That's a good one.

Let's face it, Bill will continue to ask where this came from until you traverse through abiogenesis, cosmology, and finally past the BB to an area beyond which science can comment because there is no data to stroke his "Creationism must be true because for every causal event I can ask what caused it" contentions.

Inevitably, he will declare victory and state that God exists and is author of the world as foretold by the Bible. Yaweh be praised in the highest. (BONG HIT!!!!!!)

Looking forward to your personal abiogenesis conjecture in the seperate thread. Haven't had a decent laugh in a while.

Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils

Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion
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Bill scott
SFN Addict

USA
2103 Posts

Posted - 05/23/2006 :  10:05:19   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Bill scott a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Kil

quote:
Originally posted by Bill scott

quote:
Originally posted by HalfMooner

An article on the AAAS's Website throws new light upon the difficult abiogenesis issue, which has been touched upon in these foraMicrobe Gives Clues to Origin of Life

By Betsy Mason
ScienceNOW Daily News
19 May 2006
One of the most vexing questions facing biologists is how life on Earth first emerged.




quote:
Now, research on a methane-producing microbe has led to a novel theory that could breathe new life into the field and help two opposing theories find common ground.


(bill) Where did the methane-producing microbe come from?



quote:
On a simple level, the origin-of-life debate comes down to a question of how the first complex molecules came to be. The so-called heterotrophic hypothesis says that life arose from an organic soup of small molecules that were either brought to Earth by extraterrestrial objects


(bill) Where did the organic soup of small molecules come from? Where did the Earth come from that was the giant bowl for the primordial soup? Where did the extraterrestrial objects come from? Where did outer space come from?


quote:
or were produced through lightning-triggered reactions that combined gasses.


(bill) Where did this lightning and gases come from?


quote:
Life originated when these smaller molecules assembled into larger molecules such as RNA and proteins


(bill) Is Betsy stating this as fact of theory?

quote:
On the other hand, the chemoautotrophic hypothesis posits that iron sulfide reactions released hydrogen, which combined with carbon dioxide in the atmosphere to form organic compounds. These in turn gave rise to more complex molecules.


(bill) Where did the iron sulfide, hydrogen, and carbon dioxide come from?



quote:
While the theory doesn't completely resolve the origin-of-life debate,


(bill) To say the least...


quote:
it provides a common source of energy for both sides and could be a useful starting point for a compromise, the authors report in the June issue of Molecular Biology and Evolution.

"Lets get one thing clear, Bill. Science does make some assumptions." -perrodetokio-

"In the end as skeptics we must realize that there is no real knowledge, there is only what is most reasonable to believe." -Coelacanth-

The fact that humans do science is what causes errors in science. -Dave W.-

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Bill scott
SFN Addict

USA
2103 Posts

Posted - 05/23/2006 :  10:13:50   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Bill scott a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Valiant Dancer

quote:
Originally posted by Bill scott

quote:
Originally posted by Dr. Mabuse

quote:
Originally posted by Bill scott
quote:
it provides a common source of energy for both sides and could be a useful starting point for a compromise, the authors report in the June issue of Molecular Biology and Evolution.


(bill) Starting point? I thought this was new information on life's origins? This piece begins in the middle of the story with the starting point not even mentioned.


Blue emphasis mine.
If your reading comprehension is that bad, then I'm not surprised that you have trouble coping with any and all sciences. It's much easier to sit in front of a minister and like a sponge suck up whatever tripe he spews forth.





Non-sense doc. Those were all perfectly acceptable questions regarding the science of Betsy's piece. Of course that is if science is what you are truly interested in and not just pushing some just-so story based upon a hypothesis upon a hypothesis based upon some theory...


As the avid skeptic that you say you are I am very surprised that it was not you who asked where the primordial pond or the methane-producing microbe came from? I know the skeptic in me begged to ask the question...



(snork) skeptic. That's a good one.

Let's face it, Bill will continue to ask where this came from until you traverse through abiogenesis, cosmology, and finally past the BB to an area beyond which science can comment because there is no data to stroke his "Creationism must be true because for every causal event I can ask what caused it" contentions.

Inevitably, he will declare victory and state that God exists and is author of the world as foretold by the Bible. Yaweh be praised in the highest. (BONG HIT!!!!!!)

Looking forward to your personal abiogenesis conjecture in the seperate thread. Haven't had a decent laugh in a while.




quote:
Let's face it, Bill will continue to ask where this came from until you traverse through abiogenesis, cosmology, and finally past the BB to an area beyond which science can comment


I am an inquiring skeptic through and through who is never satisfied with "it was just-so."


quote:
Haven't had a decent laugh in a while.


That is to bad, you should get out more then. You probably spend way to much time behind your computer screen...

"Lets get one thing clear, Bill. Science does make some assumptions." -perrodetokio-

"In the end as skeptics we must realize that there is no real knowledge, there is only what is most reasonable to believe." -Coelacanth-

The fact that humans do science is what causes errors in science. -Dave W.-

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Bill scott
SFN Addict

USA
2103 Posts

Posted - 05/23/2006 :  10:27:04   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Bill scott a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by pleco

quote:
Originally posted by Bill scott

quote:
Originally posted by pleco

Bill, why don't you tell us your theory about how it all got started?




Because the subject was methane-producing microbes and their part in the origins of life and not Bill's personal abiogenesis theory.



True.

Okay, here you go, your own thread. Please fire away:

http://www.skepticfriends.org/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=6170



Thanks for the invite. Fortunately, or unfortunately, I have very little time to spend on this forum. Therefore it is my best interest to stick with one thread at a time least my time will get to thinly stretched. Besides, we have hit on my abiogenesis beliefs on numerous occasions over the past few months so I am afraid that the thread would just turn into a regurgitation of past conversations.

"Lets get one thing clear, Bill. Science does make some assumptions." -perrodetokio-

"In the end as skeptics we must realize that there is no real knowledge, there is only what is most reasonable to believe." -Coelacanth-

The fact that humans do science is what causes errors in science. -Dave W.-

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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie

USA
4826 Posts

Posted - 05/23/2006 :  10:53:56   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Valiant Dancer's Homepage Send Valiant Dancer a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Bill scott

quote:
Originally posted by Valiant Dancer

quote:
Originally posted by Bill scott

quote:
Originally posted by Dr. Mabuse

quote:
Originally posted by Bill scott
quote:
it provides a common source of energy for both sides and could be a useful starting point for a compromise, the authors report in the June issue of Molecular Biology and Evolution.


(bill) Starting point? I thought this was new information on life's origins? This piece begins in the middle of the story with the starting point not even mentioned.


Blue emphasis mine.
If your reading comprehension is that bad, then I'm not surprised that you have trouble coping with any and all sciences. It's much easier to sit in front of a minister and like a sponge suck up whatever tripe he spews forth.





Non-sense doc. Those were all perfectly acceptable questions regarding the science of Betsy's piece. Of course that is if science is what you are truly interested in and not just pushing some just-so story based upon a hypothesis upon a hypothesis based upon some theory...


As the avid skeptic that you say you are I am very surprised that it was not you who asked where the primordial pond or the methane-producing microbe came from? I know the skeptic in me begged to ask the question...



(snork) skeptic. That's a good one.

Let's face it, Bill will continue to ask where this came from until you traverse through abiogenesis, cosmology, and finally past the BB to an area beyond which science can comment because there is no data to stroke his "Creationism must be true because for every causal event I can ask what caused it" contentions.

Inevitably, he will declare victory and state that God exists and is author of the world as foretold by the Bible. Yaweh be praised in the highest. (BONG HIT!!!!!!)

Looking forward to your personal abiogenesis conjecture in the seperate thread. Haven't had a decent laugh in a while.




quote:
Let's face it, Bill will continue to ask where this came from until you traverse through abiogenesis, cosmology, and finally past the BB to an area beyond which science can comment


I am an inquiring skeptic through and through who is never satisfied with "it was just-so."


quote:
Haven't had a decent laugh in a while.


That is to bad, you should get out more then. You probably spend way to much time behind your computer screen...




Ah, but you've decided to puss out on the invite as you can't seem to find the time. How about we close down this thread so that you would have the time and opportunity to advance and defend your ideas on your conjecture of abiogenesis?

Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils

Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion
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Bill scott
SFN Addict

USA
2103 Posts

Posted - 05/23/2006 :  11:15:26   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Bill scott a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Valiant Dancer
[br
Ah, but you've decided to puss out on the invite as you can't seem to find the time. How about we close down this thread so that you would have the time and opportunity to advance and defend your ideas on your conjecture of abiogenesis?



I will make it easier on you yet, VD. Just go back and reread my posts for the past three months and it will save a lot of time for everyone.

"Lets get one thing clear, Bill. Science does make some assumptions." -perrodetokio-

"In the end as skeptics we must realize that there is no real knowledge, there is only what is most reasonable to believe." -Coelacanth-

The fact that humans do science is what causes errors in science. -Dave W.-

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