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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5311 Posts |
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GeeMack
SFN Regular
USA
1093 Posts |
 Posted - 04/09/2006 : 07:35:51 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Gorgo...
Soldiers have a duty to disobey illegal orders:
Maybe you forgot, Gorgo, but we did that one to death several months ago in this thread... Criminal George W. Bush. As I recall the issue was pretty thoroughly addressed. The general consensus was that individual soldiers cannot be expected to be aware of all the legal specifics involved in their general orders, nor can they be expected to make independent judgment calls on the legality of an entire military operation and opt out of participation based on their own assessment.
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5311 Posts |
Posted - 04/09/2006 : 07:38:53 [Permalink]
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| Actually, that was not the general consensus. There were several opinions. Some said that it was not illegal because the UCMJ did not say it was illegal, but of course it does. One was that the U.S. is not subject to international law, which of course it is. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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GeeMack
SFN Regular
USA
1093 Posts |
Posted - 04/09/2006 : 08:29:43 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Gorgo...
Actually, that was not the general consensus. There were several opinions. Some said that it was not illegal because the UCMJ did not say it was illegal, but of course it does. One was that the U.S. is not subject to international law, which of course it is.
You seemed to have a hard time understanding then, and it looks like you're having a hard time understanding now. The legality of a particular military action and the requirement of participation by individual soldiers, although seemingly related concerns, are actually very separate issues. There may not have been a consensus opinion regarding the legality of the military action itself, but there did seem to be a generally shared agreement, not unanimous of course, on the issue of each soldier's choice to participate. So I repeat, the general consensus was that individual soldiers cannot be expected to be aware of all the legal specifics involved in their general orders, nor can they be expected to make independent judgment calls on the legality of an entire military operation and opt out of participation based on their own assessment.
We probably all agree that the Iraq War is wrong, and are probably in nearly unanimous agreement that it's illegal according to international law. We probably all agree that the soldiers shouldn't be over there. We probably mostly agree that some individual soldiers have been involved in specific actions which they should have known were illegal, or at least wrong, and should be held accountable for those actions. But it seems like you're suggesting the soldiers themselves should be held accountable for an illegal act simply for following their orders to participate in the war. And among those involved in the previous discussion, the consensus was apparently that they should not.
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 04/09/2006 : 08:35:12 [Permalink]
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To simplify:
A soldier has a responsibility to disobey an order to shoot an unarmed civillian.
A soldier has a responsibility to obey an order that mobilizes his unit and deploys them to combat.
Individual soldiers are accountable for their own personal actions, not for the broad orders from their commanders and civillian leaders.
It isn't really a difficult concept.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5311 Posts |
Posted - 04/09/2006 : 10:40:47 [Permalink]
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quote:
But it seems like you're suggesting the soldiers themselves should be held accountable for an illegal act simply for following their orders to participate in the war. And among those involved in the previous discussion, the consensus was apparently that they should not.
I don't understand the phrase "held accountable" in this instance. It seems to be that you think it's important, so I wish to understand. As to the rest, what you are saying is that ignorance of the law is an excuse. It isn't in any other case, and you seem to be the only one saying it. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5311 Posts |
Posted - 04/09/2006 : 10:42:57 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Dude
To simplify:
A soldier has a responsibility to disobey an order to shoot an unarmed civillian.
A soldier has a responsibility to obey an order that mobilizes his unit and deploys them to combat.
Individual soldiers are accountable for their own personal actions, not for the broad orders from their commanders and civillian leaders.
It isn't really a difficult concept.
And I have brought forth some evidence to show that you are wrong. You haven't. That isn't really a difficult concept.
Seriously, none of us are judges sitting in actual international courts that will have any impact, so we can argue this all year and come up with nothing. But I've seen no one offer anything but opinion. I know that lawyers stretch the truth, but at least I've brought the opinions of experts on the matter. I've seen none of that from anyone else. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13481 Posts |
Posted - 04/09/2006 : 12:34:48 [Permalink]
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The Petty Officer 3rd Class Pablo Paredes case is interesting. Never the less, he was convicted of a crime.
The last time we debated this, I said there is no reason to not cheer on the kind of protest that Paredes engaged in for refusing orders based on the illegality of the Iraq war.
But I'm not getting exactly where you are coming from Gorgo. Are you suggesting that we should be actively blaming the troops for following orders?
quote:
GeeMack:
the general consensus was that individual soldiers cannot be expected to be aware of all the legal specifics involved in their general orders, nor can they be expected to make independent judgment calls on the legality of an entire military operation and opt out of participation based on their own assessment.
Bingo.
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Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5311 Posts |
Posted - 04/09/2006 : 12:42:14 [Permalink]
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Thanks for the link, Kil. Interesting. Courts do things which are not in accordance with the law as well as other people and groups of people.
I don't know why "blame" and condemning people is so important to everyone. I'm not "blaming" or condemning Bush for anything and he's undoubtedly a criminal. We need to remove him from office. I've always made it clear here and everywhere else that I don't need to see him hung, so I'm certainly not going to hang anyone else.
I'm bringing a subject up for discussion. Why are these people treated differently than others who do much less damage, and who have probably even less choice in what they do? |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5311 Posts |
Posted - 04/09/2006 : 13:19:56 [Permalink]
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quote:
You seemed to have a hard time understanding then, and it looks like you're having a hard time understanding now.
This is where Dave W. , a representative of this site, would say something like "fuck you Snake." |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard
USA
4574 Posts |
Posted - 04/09/2006 : 13:34:27 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Gorgo
quote:
You seemed to have a hard time understanding then, and it looks like you're having a hard time understanding now.
This is where Dave W. , a representative of this site, would say something like "fuck you Snake."
Gorgo, Dave has never said anything remotely close to that. You owe him an apology.
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"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman
"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie |
| Edited by - H. Humbert on 04/09/2006 13:35:09 |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5311 Posts |
Posted - 04/09/2006 : 13:47:58 [Permalink]
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quote:
b]Gorgo, Dave[/b] has never said anything remotely close to that. You owe him an apology.
You're right. It was "fuck you too, Norma." My apologies.
http://www.skepticfriends.org/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=5734&whichpage=4 |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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| Edited by - Gorgo on 04/09/2006 17:39:22 |
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard
USA
4574 Posts |
Posted - 04/09/2006 : 13:59:15 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Gorgo
You're right. It was "fuck you too, Norma." My apologies.
http://www.skepticfriends.org/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=5734&whichpage=4
Well, I guess he did say it.
But as to the content of this thread. Gorgo, are you acting under the impression that the current war in Iraq was absolutely, no doubt about it, can't be argued otherwise, an illegal war? Because that doesn't seem to be a settled issue. So you can hardly fault footsoldiers for failing to object to following orders which aren't clearly illegal.
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"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman
"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5311 Posts |
Posted - 04/09/2006 : 14:39:00 [Permalink]
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Again, I'm not faulting anyone.
Yes, there is no question, that by any measure that's important, this is illegal. Certainly, killing Jews and attacking other countries wasn't illegal in Germany, but other people disagreed. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard
USA
4574 Posts |
Posted - 04/09/2006 : 15:03:45 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Gorgo
Yes, there is no question, that by any measure that's important, this is illegal. Certainly, killing Jews and attacking other countries wasn't illegal in Germany, but other people disagreed.
Well, when the rest of the world agrees with you and Bush is on trial for war crimes, we can worry about what culpability the average soldier shares.
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"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman
"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie |
| Edited by - H. Humbert on 04/09/2006 15:44:37 |
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GeeMack
SFN Regular
USA
1093 Posts |
Posted - 04/09/2006 : 15:06:48 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Gorgo...
I don't understand the phrase "held accountable" in this instance. It seems to be that you think it's important, so I wish to understand.
You apparently believe the soldiers in the US military are engaged in an illegal activity by participating in what you deem an illegal war. "Held accountable" is pretty unambiguous when used regarding someone who is willingly involved in an illegal act. If you don't understand it, look it up. And you, Gorgo, not everyone else, seem to think it's important that the soldiers themselves take some kind of legal responsibility, or blame, for doing their job and following orders. You're the one who apparently believes they're committing a crime.
Suppose you tell us what sort of accountability should be required from those who are, according to your judgment, performing an illegal act by simply participating in the Iraq War. Would you have them arrested before shipping out to their various military stations overseas? Would you have them imprisoned as they step off the planes when returning home from their tours? Are the guys driving the tanks and shooting the guns the only criminals? Are the support personnel, medical, maintenance, transportation, logistics, construction, and intelligence people criminals, too? How about those who willingly pay the soldiers to commit those crimes? Are the US taxpayers engaging in an illegal act, or maybe just those who have yellow ribbon "support the troops" magnets on their cars?
You entitled this thread, "A Duty to Disobey Illegal Orders." It seems the responsibility falls on you to define which orders you feel are illegal, and to explain how those soldiers should know which are legal and which are not. It seems if your objective is to initiate a discussion, you'd be willing to say whether you think those soldiers should make their own legal judgment call on every order handed down, if they should simply refuse orders if they have any doubts, if they should somehow automatically know your position and accommodate your desires, if they should have more extensive training on legal issues and be educated on the precedents.
You seem to be saying that those participating in the war, the soldiers anyway, should have come to the same conclusion as you regarding the questionable legality of this war, and should have chosen to participate (or not) with specific consideration to that part of the issue. But you haven't mentioned how they should know this. You haven't mentioned what process might be applied to determine if they are in fact criminals, or what sorts of repercussions these "criminals" might be subject to. Do you think they ought to be tossed in jail or brought before some international tribunal? You've cast a very wide net here, huge, then limited your comment to simply suggesting a soldier has a duty to disobey illegal orders.quote:
As to the rest, what you are saying is that ignorance of the law is an excuse. It isn't in any other case, and you seem to be the only one saying it.
I didn't say anything like that. Firstly, I said you've already beat this subject to death in a previous discussion. Then, one more time, I said, "The general consensus was that individual soldiers cannot be expected to be aware of all the legal specifics involved in their general orders, nor can they be expected to make independent judgment calls on the legality of an entire military operation and opt out of participation based on their own assessment." The phrase "general consensus" means most people involved in the discussion appeared to agree with that position, so obviously I'm not the only person saying that.quote:
Again, I'm not faulting anyone.
Yes, there is no question, that by any measure that's important, this is illegal. Certainly, killing Jews and attacking other countries wasn't illegal in Germany, but other people disagreed.
Yes, you are faulting someone; you're faulting the soldiers. Review your title on this thread. Review your position that the Iraq War is illegal. You're the one who continues to draw a direct relationship between those issues. As H. Humbert alluded, since there is clearly a disagreement as to the legality of the Iraq War, until the status of that becomes unambiguous, it isn't reasonable for the individual soldier to make his own judgment call on that part of the matter, nor is it reasonable for him to be held responsible for simply doing the job he was hired to do.
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