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Bill scott
SFN Addict

USA
2103 Posts

Posted - 04/14/2006 :  11:20:23   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Bill scott a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Paulos23

If I remeber correctly, they sent the two fossils back to China where they found that both where completely new species that where not known before. It may not have been a missing link, but they do fill a gap in our knowlage.




quote:
If I remeber correctly, they sent the two fossils back to China where they found that both where completely new species that where not known before. It may not have been a missing link, but they do fill a gap in our knowlage.


(bill) Right, at best they had a new speices of bird and dino, but not a "missing link" connecting birds to dinos. And so the search goes on for that missing link that does connects birds to dinos.

"Lets get one thing clear, Bill. Science does make some assumptions." -perrodetokio-

"In the end as skeptics we must realize that there is no real knowledge, there is only what is most reasonable to believe." -Coelacanth-

The fact that humans do science is what causes errors in science. -Dave W.-

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Bill scott
SFN Addict

USA
2103 Posts

Posted - 04/14/2006 :  11:34:44   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Bill scott a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Paulos23

Yes, I was correct. Here are the links:

http://www.talkorigins.org/indexcc/CC/CC352.html
and
http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v420/n6913/abs/420285a.html;jsessionid=68F59B34353739C5A655E4E2B5A863A1

And, the claim was made in a non-peer reviewed magazine, not by published scientests. Just an example of someone pulling a fast one to make a buck and someone not looking closely enough. It happens. However, science was able to pull something valuable from this mess.




quote:
And, the claim was made in a non-peer reviewed magazine, not by published scientests. Just an example of someone pulling a fast one to make a buck and someone not looking closely enough. It happens.


(bill) My point was not to highlight that the fossils was a fake, but rather to highlight that they are still looking for that "missing link" that does connect birds and dinos. Sloan described it as, "a missing link that would connect dinosaurs and birds". He did not say it was another missing link that would connect dinosaurs and birds. Demonstrating that they are still looking for a missing link that connects birds to dinos...





quote:
However, science was able to pull something valuable from this mess


(bill) Yes, it demonstrated that they have no missing links that connect birds and dinos and are still looking...

Again, here is what Storris L. Olson had to say on the whole fiasco:

After the November National Geographic came out, Storrs L. Olson, curator of birds in the National Museum of Natural History of the Smithsonian Institution, published an open letter on November 1, 1999, pointing out that "the specimen in question is known to have been illegally exported"; protesting the "prevailing dogma that birds evolved from dinosaurs"

"Lets get one thing clear, Bill. Science does make some assumptions." -perrodetokio-

"In the end as skeptics we must realize that there is no real knowledge, there is only what is most reasonable to believe." -Coelacanth-

The fact that humans do science is what causes errors in science. -Dave W.-

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filthy
SFN Die Hard

USA
14408 Posts

Posted - 04/14/2006 :  11:45:06   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send filthy a Private Message
quote:
(bill) Right, at best they had a new speices of bird and dino, but not a "missing link" connecting birds to dinos. And so the search goes on for that missing link that does connects birds to dinos.



<sigh> Been long found, statement is nonsense. Archaeopteryx, microaptor, et al, cover the question nicely, as I have noted in another thread. But you don't open links, do you?

And I agree, Archaeoraptor was a splendid find. It was constructed from two animals that had yet to be classified.




"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)

"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres


"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude

Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,

and Crypto-Communist!

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HalfMooner
Dingaling

Philippines
15831 Posts

Posted - 04/14/2006 :  12:55:44   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send HalfMooner a Private Message
Now, this may sound silly, and it is in a way, but I think I have a cogent point here:

Nobody will ever find a "missing link" fossil.

And that is what Creationsts count upon. It's simple: What once was lost, if now is found, is immediately not "missing." Creationists can simply say, as does Bill above, that it belongs to either of the two groups that it resembles, and deny it's a "transitional" fossil.

And other transitional fossils will always be "missing," providing Creationists with empty museum shelves to point at and say, "Look, no transitional fossils there!"


Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive.
Edited by - HalfMooner on 04/14/2006 12:56:50
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Bill scott
SFN Addict

USA
2103 Posts

Posted - 04/14/2006 :  13:13:33   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Bill scott a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by filthy

quote:
(bill) Right, at best they had a new speices of bird and dino, but not a "missing link" connecting birds to dinos. And so the search goes on for that missing link that does connects birds to dinos.



<sigh> Been long found, statement is nonsense. Archaeopteryx, microaptor, et al, cover the question nicely, as I have noted in another thread. But you don't open links, do you?

And I agree, Archaeoraptor was a splendid find. It was constructed from two animals that had yet to be classified.








quote:
<sigh> Been long found, statement is nonsense. Archaeopteryx, microaptor, et al, cover the question nicely, as I have noted in another thread. But you don't open links, do you?




It is a bird, bro.










We are not even authorized to consider the exceptional case of archaeopteryx as a true link. By link, we mean a necessary stage of transition between classes such as reptiles and birds, or between smaller groups. An animal displaying characteristics belonging to two different groups cannot be treated as a true link as long as the intermediary stages have not been found, and as long as the mechanisms of transition remain unknown." evolutionist Pierre Lecomte du Nouy:


Human Destiny (New York: Longmaus, Green and Co., 1947), quoted in: Hank Hanegraaff, The Face That Demonstrates the Farce of Evolution (Nashville: Word, 1998), 37.

http://www.trueauthority.com/cvse/archaeopteryx.htm





This lack of intermediates dilemma is also echoed by Heiser Pough and McFarland in their text Vertebrate Life.

"No intermediate fossils link Archaeopteryx with any of the groups from which it might have evolved."

Vertebrate Life, 3rd ed. (New York: McMillan, 1989), pp. 468, 470

http://www.trueauthority.com/cvse/archaeopteryx.htm



Yet again, this concept is reiterated by Larry Martin, a paleontologist from the Univeristy of Kansas who said that the

"archaeopteryx is not an ancestor of any modern birds; instead, it's a member of a totally extinct group of birds."

(quoted in Icons of Evolution, Jonathan Wells, p. 116) Meaning, of course, that it is unique unto itself, although a bird nonetheless.

http://www.trueauthority.com/cvse/archaeopteryx.htm


Dr. Alan Feduccia, professor and former head of biology at the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill, and the author of the encyclopedic The Origin and Evolution of Birds (1999).

Paleontologists have tried to turn Archaeopteryx into an earth-bound, feathered dinosaur. But it's not. It is a bird, a perching bird. And no amount of ‘paleobabble' is going to change that."

Archaeopteryx: Early Bird Catches a Can of Worms by V. Morell, Science 259(5096):764–65, 5 February 1993.

And:

"Archaeopteryx probably cannot tell us much about the early origins of feathers and flight in true protobirds because Archaeopteryx was, in a modern sense, a bird."

Science 259:790-793 (1993).

http://www.trueauthority.com/cvse/archaeopteryx.htm


"The most striking feature of Archaeopteryx is its well-developed feathered wings. These wings are not significantly different in size and shape from those of modern birds such as magpies or coucals,

"Lets get one thing clear, Bill. Science does make some assumptions." -perrodetokio-

"In the end as skeptics we must realize that there is no real knowledge, there is only what is most reasonable to believe." -Coelacanth-

The fact that humans do science is what causes errors in science. -Dave W.-

Edited by - Bill scott on 04/14/2006 13:15:39
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend

Sweden
9677 Posts

Posted - 04/14/2006 :  13:53:35   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Send Dr. Mabuse an ICQ Message Send Dr. Mabuse a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by filthy
Archaeopteryx, microaptor, et al, cover the question nicely, as I have noted in another thread. But you don't open links, do you?

He does, but Morton's Demon is making those pages all blank or blurry, so what is there to read?

Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3

"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse

Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder.
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filthy
SFN Die Hard

USA
14408 Posts

Posted - 04/14/2006 :  13:54:01   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send filthy a Private Message


The Amniote Egg


"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)

"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres


"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude

Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,

and Crypto-Communist!

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marfknox
SFN Die Hard

USA
3739 Posts

Posted - 04/14/2006 :  14:56:04   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit marfknox's Homepage  Send marfknox an AOL message Send marfknox a Private Message
Bill, you fail to understand many thing regarding the bird-dinosaur connection. First of all, you keep saying that supposedly it was already established so why would we need a "transitional fossil", but you never explain how it has been established. The theory that birds evolved from a specific group of dinosaurs called theropods has been established by other comparisons. Read all about it: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theropod
quote:
Among the features linking theropods to birds are the three-toed foot, a wishbone, air-filled bones, and (in some cases) feathers and brooding of the eggs.
Also, you say Archaeopteryx was a bird, but it has been called a protobird or primitive bird because of pronounced similarities to dinosaurs: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Archaeopteryx
quote:
Archaeopteryx was similar in size and shape to a magpie, with short, broad wings and a long tail. The feathers resemble those of living birds, but Archaeopteryx was rather different from any bird we know of today: it had jaws lined with sharp teeth, three fingers ending in curving claws, and a long bony tail.
The matter over bird evolution from dinosaurs is rather complicated and all the pieces aren't there, but there is certainly enough of the puzzel put together at this point to see that there is a connection. By the way, of all the science you posted about archaeopteryx, did it ever occur to you that you are using science. That in fact, the only way we can prove anything about the nature of the natural world is through science? Only science disproves bad science. Only scientific testing gives more evidence for or against a theory. Your religious ideas are not based on science. They are based on Biblical assumptions. And whenever science doesn't produce the results you want, you throw it out. And whenever science hasn't gotten around to completely proving without a shadow of a doubt something that doesn't mesh with your narrow-minded theology, you point at any gaps in knowledge as evidence of your claims. You could be worse, I suppose. You could be religiously defiant even in the face of evidence that proves without a shadow of a doubt - such as flat earthers. So yours is simply a milder form of denial.

Seriously, Bill, what the hell do these scientists as a whole have as their motivation to be lying to themselves and everyone else? Many of them are Christian and other religions. How can there possibily be this worldwide, 150-year-old conspiracy of willful ignorance in the face of plain evidence to the contrary among people whose careers are devoted to discovering the truth about the natural world?

"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong

Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com

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HalfMooner
Dingaling

Philippines
15831 Posts

Posted - 04/14/2006 :  15:00:15   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send HalfMooner a Private Message
Marf noted:
quote:
Seriously, Bill, what the hell do these scientists as a whole have as their motivation to be lying to themselves and everyone else? Many of them are Christian and other religions. How can there possibily be this worldwide, 150-year-old conspiracy of willful ignorance in the face of plain evidence to the contrary among people whose careers are devoted to discovering the truth about the natural world?
So well stated! This strikes directly to the paranoid, conspiracy-theory heart of the Creationist movement. Such a conspiracy would have to be enormous among the scientific community. Perhaps the Creationists' evolution-conspiracy assumption comes out of the psychological principle of "projection" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychological_projection), considering that the IDers in particular are involved in a real (though rather transparent) conspiracy to outwardly appear "scientific" while secretly being motivated only by religious Creationism.


Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive.
Edited by - HalfMooner on 04/14/2006 15:15:17
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pleco
SFN Addict

USA
2998 Posts

Posted - 04/14/2006 :  15:17:24   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit pleco's Homepage Send pleco a Private Message
quote:
the IDers are themselves involved in a real (though rather transparent) conspiracy to outwardly appear "scientific" while secretly being motivated only by religious Creationism.


True, but they haven't done very well at hiding it...I guess the believers in the atheistic worldview are just "naturally" better liars than the good-hearted christian IDers.

by Filthy
The neo-con methane machine will soon be running at full fart.
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HalfMooner
Dingaling

Philippines
15831 Posts

Posted - 04/14/2006 :  16:21:20   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send HalfMooner a Private Message
pleco wrote:
quote:
True, but they haven't done very well at hiding it...I guess the believers in the atheistic worldview are just "naturally" better liars than the good-hearted christian IDers.
Far better conspirators, too. We're smart enough not to publish our real secret beliefs on Atheist Web sites.

Oops.


Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive.
Edited by - HalfMooner on 04/14/2006 16:34:40
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marfknox
SFN Die Hard

USA
3739 Posts

Posted - 04/14/2006 :  16:39:33   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit marfknox's Homepage  Send marfknox an AOL message Send marfknox a Private Message
Half wrote:
quote:
Far better conspirators, too. We're smart enough not to publish our real secret beliefs on Atheist Web sites.

Oops.
You fool! Now they'll know!

Edited to add this: You know this means we have to kill you.

"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong

Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com

Edited by - marfknox on 04/14/2006 16:40:30
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filthy
SFN Die Hard

USA
14408 Posts

Posted - 04/15/2006 :  07:31:35   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send filthy a Private Message
Sorry Bill, but it certainly was not fully a bird.

The claim has ben made many times and it is a reflection of creationist tunnel vision that they are still blathering about it.
quote:
Claim CC214.1.1:
Archaeopteryx was fully bird. It had fully formed wings and feathers.
Source:
Watchtower Bible and Tract Society, 1985. Life--How Did It Get Here? Brooklyn, NY, pp. 79-80.
Morris, Henry M., 1974. Scientific Creationism, Green Forest, AR: Master Books, p. 85.
Response:
Archaeopteryx is defined to be a bird (technically, an avialan). However, it had many more dinosaurian traits than bird traits. Its main bird traits are
long external nostrils.
quadrate and quadratojugal (two jaw bones) not sutured together.
palatine bones that have three extensions.
all teeth lacking serrations.
large lateral furrows in top rear body of the vertebrae.

Other birdlike traits of Archaeopteryx are found also on several non-avian dinosaurs. These traits include feathers, a furcula (wishbone) fused at the midline, and a pubis elongate and directed backward. The birdlike hallux (toe) attributed to Archaeopteryx may be an error due to poor preservation (Middleton 2002).

Dinosaurian traits include the following:
no bill
teeth on premaxilla and maxilla bones
nasal opening far forward, separated from the eye by a large preorbital fenestra (hole)
neck attached to skull from the rear
center of cervical vertebrae that have simple concave articular facets
long bony tail; no pygostyle
ribs slender, without joints or uncinate processes, and not articulated with the sternum
sacrum that occupies six vertebrae
small thoracic girdle
metacarpals free (except third metacarpal), wrist hand joint flexible
claws on three unfused digits
pelvic girdle and femur joint shaped like those of archosaurs in many details
bones of pelvis unfused
and over 100 other differences from birds (Chiappe 2002; Norell and Clarke 2001).

In addition, Archaeopteryx was intermediate between dinosaurs and modern birds in the shape of the coracoid and humerus bones and the brain (Elzanowski 2002; Nedin 1999).



Now then, when are we going to learn and starting using the url code?I for one, am getting tired of fifteen foot links fucking up the format and making the page a pain in the ass to read.

Here it is again: All you've got to do is paste the address between the quotation marks and the bit of text you want to be the link between the center parenthesis, thus:

[url='whatever_ the_link_is']Whaddafuck?[/url].

This will give you Whaddafuck in blue and clickable. I have modified the quotation marks so that the example wouldn't work. Turn the apostrophies back into a quotation marks, and you will get this:

Whaddafuck?

Which will give you an error, but go ahead and click the fucker anyway.

If an ignorant redneck like me can learn it, anybody can.




"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)

"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres


"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude

Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,

and Crypto-Communist!

Edited by - filthy on 04/15/2006 09:19:49
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HalfMooner
Dingaling

Philippines
15831 Posts

Posted - 04/15/2006 :  09:04:06   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send HalfMooner a Private Message
Filthy promised:
quote:
If an ignorant redneck like me can learn it, anybody can.
Thank you, Filthy, I needed that formatting information, too.


Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive.
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filthy
SFN Die Hard

USA
14408 Posts

Posted - 04/15/2006 :  09:29:28   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send filthy a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by HalfMooner

Filthy promised:
quote:
If an ignorant redneck like me can learn it, anybody can.
Thank you, Filthy, I needed that formatting information, too.



Oops, I scrooed it up. Where it sez "center quotation marks," it should read "center parenthesis." It's now fixed.

Excellent. Few things are more irritating than having to scroll halfway across the county just to read something. And I had a selfish reason as well. My transitional species screed is almost finished and I wanted a clean page to post it on. The one ahead of us will do nicely...




"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)

"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres


"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude

Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,

and Crypto-Communist!

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