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marfknox
SFN Die Hard
USA
3739 Posts |
 Posted - 04/15/2006 : 13:21:59
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http://www.nytimes.com/2006/04/16/us/16medicaid.html?hp&ex=1145160000&en=b051e3aa4922ec13&ei=5094&partner=homepage
quote:
WASHINGTON, April 15 — More than 50 million Medicaid recipients will soon have to produce birth certificates, passports or other documents to prove that they are United States citizens, and everyone who applies for coverage after June 30 will have to show similar documents under a new federal law.
The requirement is meant to stop the "theft of Medicaid benefits by illegal aliens," in the words of Representative Charlie Norwood, Republican of Georgia, a principal author of the provision, which was signed into law by President Bush on Feb. 8.
I can't believe this passed and was signed into law. I was listening to people talk about it on the radio just last week, and the big concern was How many homeless people who walk in off the street have access to these documents? Of course the hospitals are going to treat sick people, but if the sick people don't produce documents, the government simply won't pay any of the costs. A lot of people just won't get treatment.And the hospitals will be footing the bills that the government should be.
All because of irrational hatred and fear of people who were not born in the USA and natively speak Spanish. I keep hearing people lately barking about how horrible all these illegal aliens are, but I have yet to see any hard evidence that shows exactly how they are harming the United States.
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"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong
Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com
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Edited by - marfknox on 04/15/2006 13:26:03
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beskeptigal
SFN Die Hard
USA
3834 Posts |
 Posted - 04/15/2006 : 13:58:41 [Permalink]
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| This whole situation is one big mess. The border has been open too long. People began crossing then it turned into a stream and then a deluge. On the one hand we're all human beings, but on the other it's the tragedy of the commons. I have mixed feelings. |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26020 Posts |
Posted - 04/15/2006 : 20:45:09 [Permalink]
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Whenever I hear discussions of illegal aliens, I remember that with the rights guaranteed by the Constitution come responsibilities, and non-citizens (whether here legally or not) often have no need to live up to those responsibilities. So, I ask myself, why should the rights be conferred to them?
Now, I have little problem with conferring basic rights such as those listed in the First Amendment, and also non-discrimination, to aliens of any stripe. But on the other hand, I've also got little problem with saying that if there's even the appearance of impropriety on the part of a non-citizen, then deport 'em. (Were I King of the USA, even "diplomatic immunity" would be severely restrained.) And when it comes to more-or-less direct government hand-outs of my tax dollars, I definitely have no problem saying "no."
Now, the homeless do indeed throw a wrench in the way of my ideals regarding aliens (legal or illegal), since I also have ideals about how we should treat the less fortunate among our citizenry. However, even the current Medicaid overview mentions citizenship requirements, and I can't believe they've changed the web site so quickly. In fact, the NYT article states that they haven't:Under a 1986 law, applicants for Medicaid have to declare in writing, under penalty of perjury, whether they are citizens and, if not, whether they are "in a satisfactory immigration status."
State Medicaid officials were already required to check the immigration status of people who said they were noncitizens. But until this year, when applicants claimed United States citizenship, states had discretion: they could choose whether to require documentation.
More than 40 states accepted the applicants' written statements as proof of citizenship unless the claims seemed questionable to state eligibility workers. So it seems the only thing this new Federal law did was to take control away from the States on a matter already determined. It's not as though the Feds created a whole new rule, they just strengthened the old one to say, "no matter what the States feel is adequate, this is what we demand."
And the draconian part - it seems to me - is how people are expected to prove citizenship, not that they have to at all. In other words, the really bad part is that the people who voted for this law reject the reality of some peoples' sparse or non-existent citizenship records, even though these people really are citizens. There's also a circular-logic hurdle to leap in getting a picture ID without a birth certificate in order to show ID to get your birth certificate, but I am witness to the fact that such is not impossible.
That, it seems to me, is the problem which really needs to be fixed. The outrage expressed in the linked article is not about the law itself, but in the difficulty that some people have proving that they are citizens. Whether the Medicaid law stays on the books or not, proof-of-citizenship is still going to be an issue which needs to be resolved.
I mean, if everyone who is a citizen had their ID chip implanted in their palm, this wouldn't have been a news story at all.  |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
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marfknox
SFN Die Hard
USA
3739 Posts |
Posted - 04/15/2006 : 23:58:47 [Permalink]
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beskeptical wrote: quote:
This whole situation is one big mess. The border has been open too long.
The US has been gradually but consistently tightening border security since at least the mid-1990's. And the results: (from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U.S.-Mexico_border) quote:
According to Dr. Douglass Massey (Smoke and Mirrors: U.S. Immigration Policy in the Age of Globalization, Russel Sage, 2001) and other experts, the efforts to curtail illegal immigration by means of security has done nothing but redirect the migration flows into the most desolate and desertic areas of the border, thus increasing the mortality rate of illegal immigrants. Furthermore, the security measures prevent the migrants re-entering Mexico, as they had done in the past. Instead, they remain in the U.S. for longer periods of time and eventually bring their families with them.
beskeptical wrote: quote:
People began crossing then it turned into a stream and then a deluge.
That's largely because the factories that moved to Mexico then moved to China, leaving Mexican workers totally destitute. We can't just build a wall to shut out the realities of a global economy that the US is a huge part of. The concerns people are having in the US about immigrants don't go beyond their own nationalistic nose. We fear they will cost us more in taxes when we pay for their medical care and childrens' education. We fear they will take jobs from our lower classes. We fear their assimilated and educated children might compete with our children in the future for professional careers. In other words, we'd much rather they just go away and deal with their unfortunate situation somewhere else. We're like upper middle class and rich people who go into the suburbs because they don't want to be directly affected by urban poverty, and then complain about the taxes. If we are ever going to have an ethical economic and political system, the situation of the poor needs to have a negative effect on the situation of the rich. If they are totally separated, the rich will not give a crap about the poor's situation and not do anything in their ample power to make the world a more humane place. If a huge insurgence of immigrants does hurt our economy in some way, then we can respond and do something about that, and if our nation does something that works, it can hopefully be mimicked in other parts of the world that are having similar problems. Some people say this is Mexico's problem, but the Mexican government doesn't have the same power and resources of the US government, and people are people.
beskeptical wrote:quote:
On the one hand we're all human beings, but on the other it's the tragedy of the commons.
How do you get past that we're all human beings? Yes, these are human beings, and they are deserving of life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness no less than Americans. NPR's analyst Daniel Schorr did a piece about the demonstrations all over the nation last week as being the sign of a "migrant workers movement". http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=5338986&ft=1&f=1059 That is exactly what the ideal values of the US nation are supposed to inspire - the idea that all people deserve equal opportunity.
I don't understand why immigration is viewed as such a horrible thing. I've heard that it it depresses wages for all workers in the US, but I've yet to hear or read any evidence of that. I've heard that they cost so much in social benefits, but really it is a drop in the bucket. They can't get welfare, and as for the medical care they get - what, so we'd prefer they just get sick and die in Mexico or the other impoverished countries they come from?
Of course there is the other side. Illegal immigrants pay millions every year into Social Security through jobs they got with fake IDs, and that's money they'll never collect back. And I also hear about how the US economy is dependent on them - afterall, there are estimated to be at least 11 million of them, most of whom are willing to work for lower wages and even below legal minimum wage.
While I think some of the opposition to immigration is fueled by misplaced fears about economics, much is also just plain racism and xenophobia, such as this drivel: http://www.contracostatimes.com/mld/cctimes/news/local/states/california/14349966.htm quote:
Welcome to the United States, one and all -- within reason and according to the law -- but all must become one if we are to remain a strong republic.
That's the single most compelling truth we seem to know instinctively even if no one is willing to say it.
Anyone who thinks the US is culturally united in any way with or without Mexican immigrants is really not paying attention to either history or modern times. We are not one people. We never have been one people. So obviously we do not need to be one people to remain "strong". Who the hell are these people who get annoyed at having to press an extra button to choose between English and Spanish? Or better yet, who are these people who actually think the US might become a bilingual nation? English is not only extremely dominent in the US, but it is dominent around the world. Obviously there are huge pressures for anyone living the US to learn English, and second generation immigrants always do even if some of their parents don't.
Incidentally, allowing immigrants in the US to become citizens is good for Dems and bad for Republicans: http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=5335760&ft=1&f=1059
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"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong
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| Edited by - marfknox on 04/16/2006 00:03:03 |
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Snake
SFN Addict
USA
2511 Posts |
Posted - 04/16/2006 : 00:50:29 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by marfknox
And the hospitals will be footing the bills that the government should be.
The government??? Just who do you think the government is and where do they get the money?
I'm tired of scrimping and saving so I can have things. I don't even go to the doctor right away when I should because it's too expensive. And they just walk in to emergency rooms to treat a cold. Or have a free baby. Please! I should pay for criminals to do that?
quote:
I keep hearing people lately barking about how horrible all these illegal aliens are, but I have yet to see any hard evidence that shows exactly how they are harming the United States.
Have you been to Los Angeles lately? Gangs and graffiti. And 3rd world habits bringing down neighborhoods.
And even if they aren't 'harming' the US, they are illegal anyway. NOT legal. That's against the law, which makes them criminals.
I'd like to see them wait their turn just like everyone else.
We waited a long time to have my partner be here legally. Let them get in line (learn English, pass a medical exam, and study about the US government... all the things my partner had to do.) and stop taking advantage of 'the system'.
The US is more generous than any other country when it comes to people of others lands. It bends over backwards to accommodate everyone. At what point to we say enough is enough?
Tell me what country does more for people from all over the world than the US? Why should we also help those who cheat?
----------------------------------------------------
And:
The 'demonstrations' were coordinated. I heard on the TV show 'Life and Times' here on a PBS station KCET that the word went out over the Spanish language media to go to the marches. I'm willing to bet that at least 1/2 the people and students don't even know what they are really protesting.
When deportees were interviewed they said they'd be back. If they have the tenacity to keep sneaking across the boarder not one or two but many times and the knowledge to find work despite their lack of English skills and in some cases the ability to raise $2,000 or more to buy their way across, they can't be that bad off. There are people in the US who are in the same circumstances according to reports saying so many are living from 'hand to mouth'. We don't need anymore problems.
If the unions, the communists, the church and the naive are so concerned about helping the poor and less fortunate let them consider people in Africa, the Philippines, India or any of the other places in the world where people are truly poor and starving. Where babies don't have the strength to brush flies off of themselves.
Why don't the people who want to help, donate part of their huge $50,000 income (which is more than double of our household), or $100,000 or however rich they are toward helping those people instead of stirring up tensions. |
| Edited by - Snake on 04/17/2006 11:11:44 |
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9687 Posts |
Posted - 04/16/2006 : 17:39:48 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Dave W.
I mean, if everyone who is a citizen had their ID chip implanted in their palm, this wouldn't have been a news story at all.
Forehead is much better. You can loose a hand or an arm in an accident... But once your forhead is gone, you're pretty much toast.  |
Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
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marfknox
SFN Die Hard
USA
3739 Posts |
Posted - 04/16/2006 : 18:18:03 [Permalink]
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Snake wrote: quote:
The government??? Just who do you think the government is and where do they get the money?
Oh, did I imply that government funds do not come from taxpayers? No, I didn't deny that in any way. I failed to mention it because it is such common knowledge that there is no reason to. I just love when conservatives and libertarians jump up with such a rhetorical question, as if they are pointing out some big secret. What, government funds are money from the people? Noooooo!
quote:
I'm tired of scrimping and saving so I can have things. I don't even go to the doctor right away when I should because it's too expensive. And they just walk in to emergency rooms to treat a cold. Or have a free baby. Please! I should pay for criminals to do that?
What the flying crap are you talking about? Do illegal immigrants have better health care than you? No. They have the same health care benefits or less than the poorest of Americans.
Just out of curiosity Snake, what do you think should happen when an illegal immigrant shows up at a hospital about to give birth, or sick with pneumonia, or injuried in a car accident? For that matter, what do you think should happen when the same happens to a homeless or otherwise impoverished American?
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"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong
Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com
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| Edited by - marfknox on 04/16/2006 18:28:09 |
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marfknox
SFN Die Hard
USA
3739 Posts |
Posted - 04/16/2006 : 18:42:06 [Permalink]
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Snake wrote: quote:
Have you been to Los Angeles lately? Gangs and graffiti.
What, like every single large city in America? And you blame this on illegal immigrants? Wow, what a sophiticated understanding of poverty. Gangs are largely maintained by the drug war. If you want to reduce inner city crime, fight for the decriminalization of drugs, not making illegal immigrants felons. quote:
And 3rd world habits bringing down neighborhoods.
What, like a willingness to do hard, dirty work and maintaining strong family units?
quote:
And even if they aren't 'harming' the US, they are illegal anyway. NOT legal. That's against the law, which makes them criminals.
Topping things off with a sophisticated understanding of law, too. Some things that are illegal are less serious than others. For instance, it is far more serious a crime to kill someone than to drive 51 miles an hour in a 50 mile an hour zone. However, currently, the US has more people in jails and prison for non-violent drug charges than anything else. Technically my old roomate who bought, smoked, and sometimes sold pot was a criminal. But I certainly am not going to think of him as one. Instead of think of the laws against those behaviors as unjust. I don't think the current laws regarding the status of illegal immigrants are especially unjust, but they would be if we made them into felons.
quote:
We waited a long time to have my partner be here legally. Let them get in line (learn English, pass a medical exam, and study about the US government... all the things my partner had to do.) and stop taking advantage of 'the system'.
You've got to be kidding. It is hardly easy to get into the United States. People die all the time trying to do it. And once they get here, they face all sorts of challenges that citizens do not face. I can't believe you are painting people who are so desperate for a decent life that they leave their whole culture and take a dangerous path to get into a foreign country where they don't speak the language as taking some kind of easy way out.
quote:
The US is more generous than any other country when it comes to people of others lands.
The US is made up of people of other lands. quote:
It bends over backwards to accommodate everyone.
What, like Iraq?
Tell me what country does more for people from all over the world than the US? Why should we also help those who cheat? |
"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong
Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26020 Posts |
Posted - 04/16/2006 : 19:40:04 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Dr. Mabuse
Forehead is much better. You can loose a hand or an arm in an accident... But once your forhead is gone, you're pretty much toast.
Yeah, but with a chip in your forehead, it looks like you're bowing and/or praying to the checkout clerk at the grocery store when you have to pay up. Much less embarassing to have the chip in your hand.
(Whew, thanks be that Snake showed up in this thread, to distract people away from my outrageous ideas about immigrants and/or the law in question.) |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
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marfknox
SFN Die Hard
USA
3739 Posts |
Posted - 04/16/2006 : 21:15:26 [Permalink]
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Dave wrote: quote:
(Whew, thanks be that Snake showed up in this thread, to distract people away from my outrageous ideas about immigrants and/or the law in question.)
I just assumed you were joking about the ID chips. However, if hospitals could somehow be able to tell without a doubt who is a citizen and who is not, what do you think would happen to them when they end up in the emergency room? My only concern is whether people who are working and living here are able to get medical care when they are in need.
This is also very much a class issue. Snake demands that these people go through all the legal steps to become citizens, but the plain fact is that poor people from the third world don't have a hope of going through those legal steps and becoming citizens. And if countries like the United States are only letting in people with money and education, logic dictates that third world nations will only get poorer and poorer. |
"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong
Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard
USA
4574 Posts |
Posted - 04/16/2006 : 22:14:07 [Permalink]
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For me, this is an issue I'm of two minds about. I don't think the nation can stand a limitless influx of unskilled workers. However, I also think it's bullshit that companies use immigrants for low wage positions and then deny them any access into the society in which they live and contribute.
It seems to me the problem is cheap labor. So long as some companies continue to hire immigrants who will work for less money and less benefits (and do so illegally), the problem won't stop. Therefore, I suggest that minimum wage laws be strengthened so that companies must pay anyone they employ a living wage. Increase fines and prison sentences for any company or individual who hires an undocumented worker. Finally, set up a program so that any undocumented worker who provides evidence that someone illegally employed them is given automatic citizenship to promote whistle-blowers. Punish the people that employ illegals, not the illegals themselves.
I would also suggest setting up some sort of "guest worker" program so that any immigrant who finds gainful employment in the U.S. would be legally allowed to stay here, providing they pay taxes on their earnings. Anyone who can prove steady employement for a period of 9 years would also be granted citizenship.
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"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman
"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie |
| Edited by - H. Humbert on 04/16/2006 22:18:30 |
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marfknox
SFN Die Hard
USA
3739 Posts |
Posted - 04/16/2006 : 22:22:51 [Permalink]
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Humbert, a lot of what you suggest sounds reasonable. It is companies that take advantage of immigrants that is the main problem. THe immigrants themselves are hard working people who have risked a lot to come here, and who didn't have any better options. I think it is a shame that they get so demonized.
Not sure how I feel about the guest worker program, because I've heard about how such programs can also abuse immigrants. I like your idea of making it so that it can lead to permanent stay. If someone lives and works here for 9 years, I think they've earned the chance to get citizenship. |
"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong
Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com
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| Edited by - marfknox on 04/16/2006 22:23:23 |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13476 Posts |
Posted - 04/16/2006 : 22:30:39 [Permalink]
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quote:
H. Humbert:
It seems to me the problem is cheap labor. So long as some companies continue to hire immigrants who will work for less money and less benefits (and do so illegally), the problem won't stop. Therefore, I suggest that minimum wage laws be strengthened so that companies must pay anyone they employ a living wage. Increase fines and prison sentences for any company or individual who hires an undocumented worker. Finally, set up a program so that any undocumented worker who provides evidence that someone illegally employed them is given automatic citizenship. Punish the companies that employ illegals, not the illegals themselves.
I happen to know that the construction industry pays above minimum wage for labor. Probably the farm and service industries do as well. What you are proposing would crush the California economy. It's as simple as that. The only people calling for the kind of change congress or you are proposing are those who do not actually work in those industries. Housing, food and many services would see a sharp increase in the cost of doing business that would be passed on the consumer. And by the way, where the hell are all the poor Americans? They sure aren't going out and standing all day with the Mexicans and Salvadorians and such to do jobs that no one else is willing to do.
I might tighten up the border but I sure wouldn't go after those who are here or those who employ them. The cold hard fact of it is there is no one else willing to do those jobs…
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Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26020 Posts |
Posted - 04/17/2006 : 10:03:08 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by marfknox
I just assumed you were joking about the ID chips.
Yes, the last sentence was a joke.quote:
However, if hospitals could somehow be able to tell without a doubt who is a citizen and who is not, what do you think would happen to them when they end up in the emergency room? My only concern is whether people who are working and living here are able to get medical care when they are in need.
Sure. But is there any reason, once they're patched up, for us to let an illegal alien continue to reside in the country? What would you have to say about a law which mandates that once hospitals accept an illegal alien as a patient, they contact the INS? Actually, I think you'll say that it'd drive people away from going to a hospital even when they need to, but I imagine that illegal aliens try to stay away in the first place, 'cause they think the hospitals will turn 'em in already. Even the NYT article, marf, didn't present the idea of illegal aliens dying on the street as a major argument against the law that passed - it was 99% worries about actual citizens who wouldn't get the care they are entitled to.quote:
This is also very much a class issue. Snake demands that these people go through all the legal steps to become citizens, but the plain fact is that poor people from the third world don't have a hope of going through those legal steps and becoming citizens.[quote]How much money and education is needed to become a US citizen?[quote]And if countries like the United States are only letting in people with money and education, logic dictates that third world nations will only get poorer and poorer.
The US already supports many third-world nations with direct donations. Why should the US act as a welfare provider to the individual citizens of those countries, as well? |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9687 Posts |
Posted - 04/17/2006 : 10:20:49 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Snake
The US is more generous than any other country when it comes to people of others lands.
That I will not believe until you provide some sources.
quote:
It bends over backwards to accommodate everyone.
So is Sweden.
Unless by "any other country" you mean any other country that matters, with clout in the international scene. USA isn't the center of the world.
Hmm... I think I'd still like to see your source before accepting your assertion.
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Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13476 Posts |
Posted - 04/17/2006 : 11:37:29 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Dr. Mabuse
quote:
Originally posted by Snake
The US is more generous than any other country when it comes to people of others lands.
That I will not believe until you provide some sources.
quote:
It bends over backwards to accommodate everyone.
So is Sweden.
Unless by "any other country" you mean any other country that matters, with clout in the international scene. USA isn't the center of the world.
Hmm... I think I'd still like to see your source before accepting your assertion.
http://www.pbs.org/now/politics/aiddollars.html
http://www.rasmusen.org/x/archives/000368.html
We come in at around ninth.
Sweden is number two.
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Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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