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HalfMooner
Dingaling

Philippines
15831 Posts

Posted - 05/20/2006 :  13:30:38  Show Profile Send HalfMooner a Private Message
The subject of this post comes from that weird combination of words that verlch used in another thread. Parsed, verlch's words seems to mean, "I believe it, so that proves my belief." (With that attitude toward evidence and truth, why does such a person even pretend to argue his case?) Aside from being constitutionally unable to accept on personal authority the ravings of someone so clearly over the edge of sanity as verlch, I find the "faith evidence" concept to be offensively oxymoronic.

(For verlch, who seems to need to know about this word, the definition of oxymoron is: "A rhetorical figure in which incongruous or contradictory terms are combined, as in a deafening silence and a mournful optimist.")

Let me submit a quote that differs from verlch's concept:
quote:
What was the rationale for fusing science and faith? Unbiased science could not possibly be performed by a man who possessed faith in God. Nor did faith have any need for physical confirmation of its beliefs.
The irreligious words of a secular humanist atheist? No, that's the thinking of the fanatical Bishop Aringarosa, the fictional head of Opus Dei in The Da Vinci Code. My point in quoting from fiction is that I think Dan Brown got this part right: Not only almost the whole of the Catholic Church, but many other faiths have taken the position that neither faith nor science can disprove one another. In other words, religion has nothing to say about how nature operates, and science is unconcerned with religious issues, except where they attempt to interfere with science. True, some religious reject this distinction, and a few secular humanists do, too, including a few scientists. (Generally, secular people are more tolerant of the religious than vice versa.}

Can you not, verlech, at least stipulate that faith is faith and science is science, and never the twain shall meet? Or are you so crazy that you'll continue to insult our intelligence here with pathetic oxymorons that only make you look foolish? (I have my own guess as to the answers to those questions, but I don't want to be presumptuous.)


Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive.

Edited by - HalfMooner on 05/20/2006 15:07:44

HalfMooner
Dingaling

Philippines
15831 Posts

Posted - 05/20/2006 :  16:05:11   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send HalfMooner a Private Message
Futher on "faith evidence" being a nonsensical pairing of words, here are a couple more apropos definitions taken from Dictionary.com:

"Faith":
quote:
Belief that does not rest on logical proof or material evidence. See Synonyms at belief.
[My emphasis.]

"Evidence":
quote:
A thing or things helpful in forming a conclusion or judgment: The broken window was evidence that a burglary had taken place. Scientists weigh the evidence for and against a hypothesis.



Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive.
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Dave W.
Info Junkie

USA
26014 Posts

Posted - 05/20/2006 :  20:44:52   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Dave W.'s Homepage Send Dave W. a Private Message
Unfortunately, HalfMooner, you brought up the subject of what Catholics think (even fictional ones). Since verlch thinks that the Catholic Church is the "Whore of Babylon," I'm sure he'll agree to whatever happens to be opposite to their thoughts. And we already have plenty of evidence to show that verlch thinks that evolution (in particular) is a competing faith to his faith in Jesus, and I see no reason to believe that verlch hasn't generalized that attitude to all of science.

- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too.
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HalfMooner
Dingaling

Philippines
15831 Posts

Posted - 05/21/2006 :  04:53:43   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send HalfMooner a Private Message
Oh, I see, Dave. So he's bigoted toward other Christian religions, too, not just toward non-Christians. Are there any kind of social skills this guy has at all, or is he just a mass of hate, paranoia, and madness?


Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive.
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Kil
Evil Skeptic

USA
13470 Posts

Posted - 05/21/2006 :  08:20:39   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Kil's Homepage  Send Kil an AOL message  Send Kil a Yahoo! Message Send Kil a Private Message
I'm not sure if this really fits in this thread, but here is my take on my own ”faith” in science…

Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.

Why not question something for a change?

Genetic Literacy Project
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Dude
SFN Die Hard

USA
6891 Posts

Posted - 05/21/2006 :  14:02:59   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Dude a Private Message
quote:
Are there any kind of social skills this guy has at all, or is he just a mass of hate, paranoia, and madness?



From what verlch has demonstrated here, that is a fairly accurate description. Add in his Taliban style opinions of women, and you have it.


Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson

"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin

Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth
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HalfMooner
Dingaling

Philippines
15831 Posts

Posted - 05/21/2006 :  16:50:53   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send HalfMooner a Private Message
Dude said:
quote:
From what verlch has demonstrated here, that is a fairly accurate description. Add in his Taliban style opinions of women, and you have it.
I've run across a quote attributed to Martin Luther that might have some relevance for verlch (And a whole lot of other people, when they try to refute science with "faith evidence"):

"If your head is made of butter, stay away from the fire."


Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive.
Edited by - HalfMooner on 05/21/2006 16:54:12
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verlch
SFN Regular

781 Posts

Posted - 06/02/2006 :  23:49:39   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Send verlch an AOL message Send verlch a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by HalfMooner

Can you not, verlech, at least stipulate that faith is faith and science is science, and never the twain shall meet? Or are you so crazy that you'll continue to insult our intelligence here with pathetic oxymorons that only make you look foolish? (I have my own guess as to the answers to those questions, but I don't want to be presumptuous.)





Sure, but evolution attacks creation, not just in philosophy, but in person and behind their back.

So I think we are going to defend ourselves, and not let you humiliate us by linking us to animals and weaking the God of Abraham!

You guys proselytize your theory, I believe to destroy Christianity. You can be science all you want to be, keep your theories away from our children! Stop telling the world your theory is fact and we can all go home.

There has been some programming going on, way too much free press is being given to this spiritual theory that makes me vomit. I believe the men that run the world, hate Christianity more than you do.

Just like the Beatles came to destroy Christianity, and became in their words, "more popular" than Jesus, Charles Darwin did the same.

quote:
But, the theory of evolution is dependent on this impossibility because it claims that living things were born and developed without the involvement of a creator, and this requires that, at the first stage of this proposed scenario, living things be generated by chance
.

This, gentlemen is your theory. That 6 billion people came from "nothing."

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Giltwist
Skeptic Friend

USA
69 Posts

Posted - 06/03/2006 :  00:10:34   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Giltwist's Homepage  Send Giltwist an AOL message  Send Giltwist an ICQ Message  Send Giltwist a Yahoo! Message Send Giltwist a Private Message
quote:

You guys proselytize your theory, I believe to destroy Christianity. You can be science all you want to be, keep your theories away from our children! Stop telling the world your theory is fact and we can all go home.


I gotta say, that as a professional educator, we do lie to our children a great deal in the public educational system, at least in the US. The problem comes not from the material, though. The problem is, in my mind, we teach science as collection of facts as opposed to a frame of reference for perceiving the world. Honestly, as a math teacher, I could care less if a studen can spout off the trigonetric identities. What's really important is that students learn to follow systems of thought that transcend the simple seeing is believing mentality of the modern age. Abstraction and reason are more what I wish to teach than integrals.

quote:
But, the theory of evolution is dependent on this impossibility because it claims that living things were born and developed without the involvement of a creator, and this requires that, at the first stage of this proposed scenario, living things be generated by chance
.

Evolution and the Big Bang are hard to wrap your head around. Mostly, I think, because the human mind does not like the concept of infinity. It is very difficult to conceive of infinite regression into the past. It is much nicer to have a solid starting point of a Creator figure; it gives peace of mind to an otherwise very unsettling concept. However, I really have to say there is nothing more impossible about the genesis of sentient life by pure chance than an army of typewriting monkeys writing the complete works of Shakespeare.

Although, if sentient life is purely the product of chance, you'd think Drake's Equation would prove to be more correct about the number of sentient species in the universe. I almost find the universe's apparant lack of alien life to be somewhat more indicative of intelligent design than mankinds existence.

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Pernicious
New Member

35 Posts

Posted - 06/03/2006 :  02:56:36   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Pernicious a Private Message


[/quote]

Sure, but evolution attacks creation, not just in philosophy, but in person and behind their back.

So I think we are going to defend ourselves, and not let you humiliate us by linking us to animals and weaking the God of Abraham!

You guys proselytize your theory, I believe to destroy Christianity. You can be science all you want to be, keep your theories away from our children! Stop telling the world your theory is fact and we can all go home.



[/quote]

So, did atomic theory also threaten Christianity? How bout the discovery of bacteria? If evolution is so dangerous to your religion, why not these?


If I was the Supreme Being, I wouldn't muck about with butterflies and dandelions, I'd start with lasers, eight o'clock, Day One!
-Time Bandits
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filthy
SFN Die Hard

USA
14408 Posts

Posted - 06/03/2006 :  03:26:20   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send filthy a Private Message
Let's cut to the chase, here. The biggest threat to Christianity is.... fundamentalist Christianity.

More and more, Ham, Hovind, Sarfati, Gish, Behe, that Discovery Institute clown; Whatsisface, et al, are being shown for the mendicants that they are. Christians who think for themselves, like a neighbor of mine, are gradually and quietly moving away from them.

And, I think, donations must be down. They never miss a chance to hustle a few bucks from the faithful or anyone else they can get their hooks into. Their sites are filled with styrofoam cups and a grifter's plea.




"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)

"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres


"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude

Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,

and Crypto-Communist!

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Zebra
Skeptic Friend

USA
354 Posts

Posted - 06/03/2006 :  22:30:39   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Zebra a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Giltwist

quote:

You guys proselytize your theory, I believe to destroy Christianity. You can be science all you want to be, keep your theories away from our children! Stop telling the world your theory is fact and we can all go home.


I gotta say, that as a professional educator, we do lie to our children a great deal in the public educational system, at least in the US. The problem comes not from the material, though. The problem is, in my mind, we teach science as collection of facts as opposed to a frame of reference for perceiving the world. Honestly, as a math teacher, I could care less if a studen can spout off the trigonetric identities. What's really important is that students learn to follow systems of thought that transcend the simple seeing is believing mentality of the modern age. Abstraction and reason are more what I wish to teach than integrals.

...

Evolution and the Big Bang are hard to wrap your head around. Mostly, I think, because the human mind does not like the concept of infinity. It is very difficult to conceive of infinite regression into the past. It is much nicer to have a solid starting point of a Creator figure; it gives peace of mind to an otherwise very unsettling concept...


Have you had any luck trying to teach science and math as frames of reference and processes rather than facts - with your students, their parents, & the administrators at your school? People also seem to like the solid point of something to memorize, and one right answer. And though verlach says he wants scientific theories taught as theories rather than fact, I'm suspect the alternative approach of teaching his kids to think analytically would actually threaten his little world more. I'm guessing he's thinking of the Bible as the perfect textbook to use in class...

I think, you know, freedom means freedom for everyone* -Dick Cheney

*some restrictions may apply
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Giltwist
Skeptic Friend

USA
69 Posts

Posted - 06/03/2006 :  23:32:02   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Giltwist's Homepage  Send Giltwist an AOL message  Send Giltwist an ICQ Message  Send Giltwist a Yahoo! Message Send Giltwist a Private Message
quote:
People also seem to like the solid point of something to memorize,


Oh, I know that. No Child Left Behind is federal law that says, despite decades of educational research that says it is the lowest form of learning, memorization is what the public school system is about. Bloom's Taxonomy be damned! Let's meorize that periodic table...

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filthy
SFN Die Hard

USA
14408 Posts

Posted - 06/04/2006 :  03:07:07   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send filthy a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Giltwist

quote:
People also seem to like the solid point of something to memorize,


Oh, I know that. No Child Left Behind is federal law that says, despite decades of educational research that says it is the lowest form of learning, memorization is what the public school system is about. Bloom's Taxonomy be damned! Let's meorize that periodic table...

Sort'a makes a case for home-schooling, doesn't it....?




"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)

"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres


"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude

Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,

and Crypto-Communist!

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filthy
SFN Die Hard

USA
14408 Posts

Posted - 06/04/2006 :  04:13:57   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send filthy a Private Message
quote:
Sure, but evolution attacks creation, not just in philosophy, but in person and behind their back. Sure, but evolution attacks creation, not just in philosophy, but in person and behind their back.

What nonsense! The theory of evolution says not a single word about creation, pro nor con. Is that the problem? That the ToE doesn't support the unsupportable?
quote:
So I think we are going to defend ourselves, and not let you humiliate us by linking us to animals and weaking the God of Abraham!
Any humiliation you might feel is all of your own choosing.

quote:
You guys proselytize your theory, I believe to destroy Christianity. You can be science all you want to be, keep your theories away from our children! Stop telling the world your theory is fact and we can all go home.

Nobody cares about Christianity other than Christians themselves. If you want your children to become ultra-religious ignoramuses, that's fine, and you need not keep your ancient fantasy and fairy tales away from mine. They are actually interesting, and I am perfectly capable of describing their foundations of sand. And have.

And it has already been pointed out, ad nauseum, to you what a scientific theory is. You not only refuse to to accept it, but balk at researching it for yourself.

quote:
There has been some programming going on, way too much free press is being given to this spiritual theory that makes me vomit. I believe the men that run the world, hate Christianity more than you do.

Take an Alki-Seltzer and suck it up, verlch. Science does not hate Christianity in spite of the many hateful and despicable people professing it. When was the last time you saw any major news outlet lauding atheism? I'm calling bullshit on you again!

quote:
Just like the Beatles came to destroy Christianity, and became in their words, "more popular" than Jesus, Charles Darwin did the same.

The Beatles came to play their music, make a lot of money, and get laid. All else is simply rhetoric. Show me in Darwin's writings a single phrase in which he attacks Christianity.
quote:
So I think we are going to defend ourselves, and not let you humiliate us by linking us to animals and weaking the God of Abraham!

Defend away. Any humiliation you feel is of your own design. But remember, if the God Of Abraham is capable of being weakened, it's not much of a deity, is it?

Heh, given their world-wide audience, an argument might be made that the Beatles were indeed, more popular than Jesus. But, as stated earlier, Darwin did nor said nothing of the sort.




"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)

"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres


"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude

Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,

and Crypto-Communist!

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HalfMooner
Dingaling

Philippines
15831 Posts

Posted - 06/04/2006 :  12:42:14   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send HalfMooner a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by filthy

quote:
There has been some programming going on, way too much free press is being given to this spiritual theory that makes me vomit. I believe the men that run the world, hate Christianity more than you do.

Take an Alki-Seltzer and suck it up, verlch. Science does not hate Christianity in spite of the many hateful and despicable people professing it. When was the last time you saw any major news outlet lauding atheism? I'm calling bullshit on you again!

quote:
Just like the Beatles came to destroy Christianity, and became in their words, "more popular" than Jesus, Charles Darwin did the same.

The Beatles came to play their music, make a lot of money, and get laid. All else is simply rhetoric. Show me in Darwin's writings a single phrase in which he attacks Christianity.
quote:
So I think we are going to defend ourselves, and not let you humiliate us by linking us to animals and weaking the God of Abraham!

Defend away. Any humiliation you feel is of your own design. But remember, if the God Of Abraham is capable of being weakened, it's not much of a deity, is it?

Heh, given their world-wide audience, an argument might be made that the Beatles were indeed, more popular than Jesus. But, as stated earlier, Darwin did nor said nothing of the sort.


Ah, but our dear verlch is at heart a faithful follower of Adolf Hitler, whose OSS file described his use of "The Big Lie" thusly:
quote:
His primary rules were: never allow the public to cool off; never admit a fault or wrong; never concede that there may be some good in your enemy; never leave room for alternatives; never accept blame; concentrate on one enemy at a time and blame him for everything that goes wrong; people will believe a big lie sooner than a little one; and if you repeat it frequently enough people will sooner or later believe it.
[My emphasis.]

And verlch is able to both deliberately lie and believe his own lies at the same time, through the miracle of "Doublethink". A remarkable mental armanentarium these Nazis have, but it works poorly upon skeptics!



Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive.
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