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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard

USA
5310 Posts

Posted - 06/14/2006 :  23:45:10  Show Profile Send Gorgo a Private Message
This is bravery, honor and integrity.

quote:
In a remarkable protest from inside the ranks of the military, First Lieut. Ehren Watada has become the Army's first commissioned officer to publicly refuse orders to fight in Iraq on grounds that the war is illegal. The 28-year-old announced his decision not to obey orders to deploy to Iraq in a video press conference June 7, saying, "My participation would make me party to war crimes."


I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter




Edited by - Gorgo on 06/14/2006 23:46:03

Starman
SFN Regular

Sweden
1613 Posts

Posted - 06/15/2006 :  00:36:20   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Starman a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Gorgo
This is bravery, honor and integrity.
This is going to be interesting, but I can't really see how they could let him get away with it.
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard

USA
5310 Posts

Posted - 06/15/2006 :  02:01:05   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Gorgo a Private Message
Of course not. To allow it would be to admit their own criminal behavior.

I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter



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Dude
SFN Die Hard

USA
6891 Posts

Posted - 06/15/2006 :  03:30:56   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Dude a Private Message
Prediction:

He will be arrested, tried, and convicted.

..........................................



We've been over this ground before Gorgo. Nearly everyone here would agree, at a minimum, that the legality of this war is questionable.

Soldiers, however, do not get to make that decision. You refuse orders, it is definitely a crime.

(edit: typo correction)

Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson

"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin

Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth
Edited by - Dude on 06/15/2006 03:32:20
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard

USA
5310 Posts

Posted - 06/15/2006 :  03:36:47   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Gorgo a Private Message
If you deny constitutional and international law, you are correct. If you deny any kind of reasonable ethics, you are correct.

I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter



Edited by - Gorgo on 06/15/2006 03:37:16
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard

USA
5310 Posts

Posted - 06/15/2006 :  03:38:56   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Gorgo a Private Message
A statement by Lt. Ehren Watada

I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter



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Starman
SFN Regular

Sweden
1613 Posts

Posted - 06/15/2006 :  04:21:50   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Starman a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Dude

Prediction:

He will be arrested, tried, and convicted.
Yes, but for what?
After his public statements they might also get him for mutiny.
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Robb
SFN Regular

USA
1223 Posts

Posted - 06/15/2006 :  05:12:49   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Robb a Private Message
The only problem I have with him is that he joined after we invaded Iraq. We spent over two years training him as an army officer and now he won't go to war.Link
quote:
And Robert Watada said he laid out the "pros and cons" of military service as his son considered joining the service in the spring of 2003 as the invasion of Iraq was launched.
If he had his doubts about the weapons of mass destruction, why did he join and not investigate them further before he made a life changing descision. Link
quote:
After the younger Watada enlisted, he was sent to officer-training school in Georgia. Watada said he supported the war at that time because he believed Iraq had weapons of mass destruction.

"I had my doubts," he said. "But I felt like the president is our leader, and he won't betray our trust, and he would know what he was talking about, and let's give him the benefit of the doubt." Over the past year, his feeling changed as he read up on the war and became convinced that there was "intentional manipulation of intelligence" by the Bush administration.


How did he become convinced? Where is his evidence that there was intentional manipulation of evidence? If he has some then he should not have to go to jail. Otherwise this is what he signed up for.
He has courage to stand up and refuse these orders and is within his right to do so. But he will probably do jail time with a dishonorable discharge from the military.

When he joined he also did not think the war was justified.Link
quote:
At the time, he did not think the invasion of Iraq was fully justified, "but I believed the president's claims should be given the benefit of the doubt."

Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master. - George Washington
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard

USA
5310 Posts

Posted - 06/15/2006 :  06:18:13   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Gorgo a Private Message
Doesn't matter when he changed his mind, he's right. It's an illegal war. Nothing about it is legal. That's what the UN and Nuremberg were all about. Attacking other countries is illegal. Doesn't matter whether anyone lied or not. The U.S. is part of the U.N. and subject to its charter. Bound to it by the Constitution.

I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter



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Starman
SFN Regular

Sweden
1613 Posts

Posted - 06/15/2006 :  06:22:03   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Starman a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Gorgo

Doesn't matter when he changed his mind, he's right. It's an illegal war. Nothing about it is legal. That's what the UN and Nuremberg were all about. Attacking other countries is illegal. Doesn't matter whether anyone lied or not. The U.S. is part of the U.N. and subject to its charter. Bound to it by the Constitution.
It might be so, but that does not make his actions legal.
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard

USA
5310 Posts

Posted - 06/15/2006 :  06:32:52   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Gorgo a Private Message
Again, a soldier has a duty to disobey illegal orders. Illegally attacking other countries is illegal.

No one has prosecuted low level military for such things, but it is clearly illegal. There is no mechanism for a soldier to appeal such a thing, however, so one cannot fault individual soldiers on a legal basis for not refusing. However, reasonable people (imo) have to support those who are brave enough and honorable and ethical enough to defy such orders.

I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter



Edited by - Gorgo on 06/15/2006 06:33:50
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Starman
SFN Regular

Sweden
1613 Posts

Posted - 06/15/2006 :  06:52:06   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Starman a Private Message
As noted by Dude we had this discussion before.
quote:
Originally posted by Gorgo

Again, a soldier has a duty to disobey illegal orders.
True.
quote:
Illegally attacking other countries is illegal.
Tautological but also true.
quote:
No one has prosecuted low level military for such things, but it is clearly illegal.
Unless you are able back that up, that is your opinion.
A low level military is not allowed to attack other countries.
quote:
There is no mechanism for a soldier to appeal such a thing, however, so one cannot fault individual soldiers on a legal basis for not refusing. However, reasonable people (imo) have to support those who are brave enough and honorable and ethical enough to defy such orders.
Others might find it reasonable to support those that illegally attack countries that they perceive as a threat. Doesn't matter, it is still illegal.

1st Lt. Watada might think that his actions are the only moral way he could act. Then he should also accept the consequences.
Same goes for Bush.
Edited by - Starman on 06/15/2006 07:06:14
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard

USA
5310 Posts

Posted - 06/15/2006 :  07:13:41   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Gorgo a Private Message
I've backed all this up, and since you are familiar with the previous thread, I'll refer you to that for those citations, they're the same ones Watada is using.

I'm sure that he does accept the consequences(Watada, that is), but I do not know why anyone else does as he is clearly acting according to the law and according to reason.

I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter



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Starman
SFN Regular

Sweden
1613 Posts

Posted - 06/15/2006 :  07:27:51   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Starman a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Gorgo

I'm sure that he does accept the consequences(Watada, that is)
Well if Dubya should accept the consequences on the day of reckoning it will take some of the fun out of the moment.
I would love to see his face when the verdict is explained to him.
quote:
I've backed all this up, and since you are familiar with the previous thread, I'll refer you to that for those citations, they're the same ones Watada is using.
I will re-check that thread.
Edited by - Starman on 06/15/2006 07:33:28
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Paulos23
Skeptic Friend

USA
446 Posts

Posted - 06/15/2006 :  08:27:11   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Paulos23's Homepage Send Paulos23 a Private Message
I read about this guy last week in the local paper. While I understand his moral objections to the war, he is really not in a position to do this without consenquences. He joined the army and he knew the war in Iraq was going on, how can he not expect to get sent?

You can go wrong by being too skeptical as readily as by being too trusting. -- Robert A. Heinlein

Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored. -- Aldous Huxley
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard

USA
5310 Posts

Posted - 06/15/2006 :  08:31:22   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Gorgo a Private Message
No, he certainly will spend some time in prison. But that's because the system is criminal, not because he is.

I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter



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