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Ricky
SFN Die Hard
USA
4907 Posts |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
 Posted - 06/15/2006 : 20:37:08 [Permalink]
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| Again, I refer you to the last two threads on the subject. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 06/15/2006 : 20:38:38 [Permalink]
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quote:
You brought up the international court, Gorgo.
Please stop straining to think from point a to point b and stick to what you know. Whatever that may be. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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GeeMack
SFN Regular
USA
1093 Posts |
Posted - 06/15/2006 : 21:33:41 [Permalink]
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Hey, Gorgo, most of us understand your frustration, and most of us agree with your general position that the Iraq War is wrong, unjust, illegal, etc. But you've been complaining about this issue here for several months now, and it seems like it would be a lot more productive if you would take some kind of positive action towards resolving the issue. Why don't you write your US representatives with your concerns? All of them have methods for email contact on their web sites. After all, nobody here at SFN is going to be able to fix this for you, no matter how long you continue to whine about it. And please do let us know what sort of replies you get from your representatives.
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Ghost_Skeptic
SFN Regular
Canada
510 Posts |
Posted - 06/16/2006 : 00:07:15 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Ricky
Gorgo, I wish to hear how you came to the conclusion that the war in Iraq is illegal. Don't get me wrong, I agree with you. I just want to hear it in your own words. Site any evidence you wish.
Just to let you know where I'm going with this, I hope to show you that deciding whether or not a war is illegal is not as clear cut as you think it is. And if it is not clear cut, then we can't have troops refuse to fight because they think the war is illegal, if it's a very debatable issue. No military could ever function like that.
According to Nuremberg War Crimes Trial Prosecutor Benjamin Ferencz pre-emptive war is illegal. This precedent was established at the Nuremberg trials. You can listen to an interview with him in real audio format. |
"You can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink. / You can send a kid to college but you can't make him think." - B.B. King
History is made by stupid people - The Arrogant Worms
"The greater the ignorance the greater the dogmatism." - William Osler
"Religion is the natural home of the psychopath" - Pat Condell
"The day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the supreme being as his father in the womb of a virgin, will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerva in the brain of Jupiter" - Thomas Jefferson |
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Starman
SFN Regular
Sweden
1613 Posts |
Posted - 06/16/2006 : 01:09:24 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by GeeMack
Hey, Gorgo, most of us understand your frustration, and most of us agree with your general position that the Iraq War is wrong, unjust, illegal, etc. But you've been complaining about this issue here for several months now, and it seems like it would be a lot more productive if you would take some kind of positive action towards resolving the issue. Why don't you write your US representatives with your concerns? All of them have methods for email contact on their web sites. After all, nobody here at SFN is going to be able to fix this for you, no matter how long you continue to whine about it. And please do let us know what sort of replies you get from your representatives.
Regardless of what Gorgo does outside of SFN, discussing views here is what this board is all about. Others might feel that his tactics are ineffective but who knows? Maybe he will win some of us over. Maybe these persons will spread the word and something will be set in motion.
If we feel that his discussions are getting tedious we are free to ignore them.
Gorgo, you seem to calling things illegal based on what you think the law(s) ought to be.
What is illegal is decided by law & precedent. What is legal or illegal might differ from what is right or wrong which are subjective values.
You might think that it should be legal (or mandatory) to refuse to fight an illegal war.
Fine! Such laws could be created and we could discuss that and what that might lead to.
But at this time there are no such laws and unless you can produce a law or a precedent that show different, the legality is not really something that is meaningful to argue about.
You go to the courts with the law you have. It's not the law you might want or wish to have at a later time." |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 06/16/2006 : 02:51:16 [Permalink]
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I agree that precedent in the U.S. says that the President can act like Hitler in foreign policy if he wants to, but that is not the law as written, and that is not the international law that the U.S. expects its enemies to follow.
International law as it is was created by victors, who want to protect themselves and did not want anyone to stop them from attacking other people and wanted to cover up their crimes, but not that of their enemies.
I'm not bragging about the state of international law now, you are right. I am saying that if any of the nations cared about international law, we would have a different system.
However, it is clear under international law, that aggressive war is illegal. Nuremberg states that soldiers have a duty to disobey illegal orders, but again, the law falls short when it comes to application. They did not prosecute low level military because they themselves did not want to have to face rebellion in the ranks when they ordered them to commit crimes. They talked out of both sides of their mouths. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 06/16/2006 : 03:00:37 [Permalink]
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quote:
After all, nobody here at SFN is going to be able to fix this for you, no matter how long you continue to whine about it. And please do let us know what sort of replies you get from your representatives.
I've written, I've protested, I've done letters to the editor. Representatives, as they are called, are not working for you and me. It's time to stop acting as if they are. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 06/16/2006 : 03:04:40 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by HalfMooner
I respect this guy. I'm also glad I'm not in his boots.
The bottom line in any act of civil disobedience is that the person taking the action accepts suffering the legal consequences of his or her actions. Not that this was Ehren Watada's plan, but people should never set out to perform an act of civil disobedience with the expectation that they are going to somehow beat the rap. The entire trial strategy for such a person is to show, "Yes, this is what I had to do, and this was my reason. I accept the consequences." If the contemplation of such a trial is unattractive, one should not do the civil disobedience.
Well, no one says that about soldiers that go to combat. Do kids have any conception of what they're doing when they enlist?
Why would anyone suspect that he doesn't expect to receive the full consequences of what we call the law here? Why would people think that would be worse than participating in this crime against humanity and dying or becoming maimed? |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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Starman
SFN Regular
Sweden
1613 Posts |
Posted - 06/16/2006 : 03:11:41 [Permalink]
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Yes, soldiers have a duty to disobey illegal orders, but still an order, like the one lt. Watada got, to participate in a war is not an illegal order even if the war was illegal in the first place.
The lawbreakers are the Commanders in Chief and probably some of the people around him. quote:
Originally posted by Gorgo
I'm not bragging about the state of international law now, you are right. I am saying that if any of the nations cared about international law, we would have a different system.
True.
But such a system would also have to be able handle people like Saddam Hussein and other criminals that hide behind their nations armies. |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 06/16/2006 : 05:31:08 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Starman
Yes, soldiers have a duty to disobey illegal orders, but still an order, like the one lt. Watada got, to participate in a war is not an illegal order even if the war was illegal in the first place.
Again, we had a couple of threads about this and that's been done to death. I agree that no court is going to agree with me because of the sad state of the system we have, but you can't say an act is illegal, and then say that obeying orders is not an excuse, and then say the participants in that act are exempt from the law. No. technically, it is an illegal act to follow these orders. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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| Edited by - Gorgo on 06/16/2006 05:34:34 |
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Robb
SFN Regular
USA
1223 Posts |
Posted - 06/16/2006 : 05:33:49 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Gorgo
Do kids have any conception of what they're doing when they enlist?
These men and women are adults, they should know what they are getting into before they enlist, if not it is their own fault. To call them kids is demeaning to them. Besides, alot of enlisted people are not 18. The mean age is 19 who enlist and 27 for officers. Most know what they are doing, they just do not agree with you. I think because they do not agree with you, you think there must be something childish in their thinking.
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Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master. - George Washington |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 06/16/2006 : 05:43:25 [Permalink]
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quote:
Most know what they are doing, they just do not agree with you. I think because they do not agree with you, you think there must be something childish in their thinking.
This was in response to someone questioning whether Watada knew what he was doing. There is no reason to think that someone who protests an illegal act has a worse ability to make decisions than someone who goes along with the illegal act.
I'm 52 years old. Most people are becoming kids to me, but 18-year-olds are kids. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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beskeptigal
SFN Die Hard
USA
3834 Posts |
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
Posted - 06/18/2006 : 19:58:20 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Gorgo
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Starman
Yes, soldiers have a duty to disobey illegal orders, but still an order, like the one lt. Watada got, to participate in a war is not an illegal order even if the war was illegal in the first place.
Again, we had a couple of threads about this and that's been done to death. I agree that no court is going to agree with me because of the sad state of the system we have, but you can't say an act is illegal, and then say that obeying orders is not an excuse, and then say the participants in that act are exempt from the law. No. technically, it is an illegal act to follow these orders.
[/quote]
And here again we come to the crux of the problem.
You interpret only the Nuremburg trials and ignore the Geneva Convention of 46 which clearly refutes your position on international law.
I have provided you with those links in previous threads. Those links draw a bright line between legal and illegal orders. The UCMJ is written with those agreements in mind.
The individual who is objecting to being sent to Iraq and citing it as an illegal order has a hard row to hoe. The law is not on his side in this case as we have presented in past threads.
Orders to deploy to a foreign nation and engage the armed forces or militias of that nation in military combat are not illegal orders under the Geneva Convention of 46.
Collateral damage civilian casualties where valid military targets are in close proximity through inherent inaccuracies of ordinance are not illegal under the Geneva Convention of 46.
These basic articles of international law refutes your contention that soldiers who obey orders to deploy to Iraq and engage enemy forces there are obeying illegal orders. Until such time as you can rectify this deficiency in your argumentation, I seriously doubt that you will find many converts to your reasoning. |
Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils
Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion |
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