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Paulos23
Skeptic Friend

USA
446 Posts

Posted - 06/23/2006 :  16:14:36  Show Profile  Visit Paulos23's Homepage Send Paulos23 a Private Message
This is a devepling story here, but this is just nuts.

http://tinyurl.com/zckvw

quote:
Police say Tina Marie Carlsen took her 9-month-old son Riley Rogers from Seattle's Children's Hospital early Thursday morning, just as her child was due to have life-saving surgery. Authorities desperately search for Carlsen and the baby, who could die from kidney failure if he is not operated on soon. Detectives were exploring leads from Washington to Arizona, home of Carlsen's father Ralph.

“She came down here about a month ago with the father of the child,” said Ralph Carlsen, baby's grandfather. “And she was trying to find someone who could help her with the situation naturally."

Police say Carlsen had snuck her baby out of the hospital in a bag around 6 a.m. Thursday. Carlsen had allegedly arranged the covers in the child's bed to make it appear that he was still there.

Carlson told KING 5 News his daughter was
quote:
exploring naturopathic medicine as a way to cure her son's kidney ailment.
And she couldn't get that kind of help at Seattle's Children's Hospital.



Bolding mine.

This is just nuts, first she gets the kid to the hospital. But then she freaks out about what they have to do to cure the kid and decides to try a "natural" aproach? I think it is a little late for that.

Maybe she did it to feel in control of the situation.

You can go wrong by being too skeptical as readily as by being too trusting. -- Robert A. Heinlein

Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored. -- Aldous Huxley

Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend

Sweden
9677 Posts

Posted - 06/23/2006 :  17:35:33   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Send Dr. Mabuse an ICQ Message Send Dr. Mabuse a Private Message
Since woo-woo ideas of medicine (and otherwise) isn't hereditary, natural selection won't weed out bad ideas from the population. This is the responsibility of the school and media: to educate the public about bad ideas. It works fairly well in my country.

Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3

"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse

Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
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Ricky
SFN Die Hard

USA
4907 Posts

Posted - 06/23/2006 :  17:59:35   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Send Ricky an AOL message Send Ricky a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Dr. Mabuse

Since woo-woo ideas of medicine (and otherwise) isn't hereditary, natural selection won't weed out bad ideas from the population. This is the responsibility of the school and media: to educate the public about bad ideas. It works fairly well in my country.



Of course, I completely agree. We must improve education standards and general public knowledge. But some people just refuse everything you try to teach them. They don't listen because they want to believe in natural cures.

You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make 'em think.

Why continue? Because we must. Because we have the call. Because it is nobler to fight for rationality without winning than to give up in the face of continued defeats. Because whatever true progress humanity makes is through the rationality of the occasional individual and because any one individual we may win for the cause may do more for humanity than a hundred thousand who hug their superstitions to their breast.
- Isaac Asimov
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Paulos23
Skeptic Friend

USA
446 Posts

Posted - 06/23/2006 :  18:47:23   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Paulos23's Homepage Send Paulos23 a Private Message
They keep changing the story in the link so things are moving, and people are worried.

I agree, you can teach people all the facts in the world, but you can't make them use them.

You can go wrong by being too skeptical as readily as by being too trusting. -- Robert A. Heinlein

Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored. -- Aldous Huxley
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Zebra
Skeptic Friend

USA
354 Posts

Posted - 06/23/2006 :  19:24:08   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Zebra a Private Message
She didn't have custody of him, so it was more than just checking him in then changing her mind. I'm near Seattle; there's an "Amber Alert" out (public service announcements on TV, and electronic signs over freeways giving the make, model, and license plate, asking people to call 911 if they see it).

This Seattle Times story has some additional info, including the tidbit that she carried him out of Children's Hospital in a diaper bag.



I think, you know, freedom means freedom for everyone* -Dick Cheney

*some restrictions may apply
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Paulos23
Skeptic Friend

USA
446 Posts

Posted - 06/24/2006 :  10:29:04   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Paulos23's Homepage Send Paulos23 a Private Message
Well all ends well, so far. They found the mom and the child before the child has gotten any worse.

http://www.kirotv.com/news/9421295/detail.html

You can go wrong by being too skeptical as readily as by being too trusting. -- Robert A. Heinlein

Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored. -- Aldous Huxley
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Dave W.
Info Junkie

USA
26012 Posts

Posted - 06/24/2006 :  20:32:52   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Dave W.'s Homepage Send Dave W. a Private Message
Good news:
A statement released from Children's Hospital said that doctors did not believe Riley's health condition put him in imminent danger.
Bad news:
According to the statement, Children's Hospital staff met with Riley's parents to discuss his health and to decide on a course for his care. The hospital offered to provide alternative care treatments and therapies, including bringing in a naturopathic physician.
Strange news:
Police said the boy is a ward of the state and that his treatment was ordered by CPS.
So if neither parent had legal custody, why were they even a part of the decision-making process about the boy's treatment?

- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too.
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beskeptigal
SFN Die Hard

USA
3834 Posts

Posted - 06/25/2006 :  13:28:41   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send beskeptigal a Private Message
CPS case worker can be working with the family as I believe they are in this case. It's a tough one to educate a parent and provide proper care at the same time. Just because the parents are ignorant shouldn't mean we lose empathy for them.
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Dave W.
Info Junkie

USA
26012 Posts

Posted - 06/25/2006 :  21:38:24   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Dave W.'s Homepage Send Dave W. a Private Message
I'm not sure if you're responding to me, b'gal, but rest assured that I've got plenty of empathy for the parents, especially the mother, who has obviously been fed lots of false-hope-generating lies about "natural" freakin' medicine - so many that any instinct she might have had for self-preservation was overcome by panic and desperation.

- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too.
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beskeptigal
SFN Die Hard

USA
3834 Posts

Posted - 06/27/2006 :  10:47:16   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send beskeptigal a Private Message
We're on the same page then, Dave, and it was your post I was replying to. It was your "bad news" and the last comment that gave me the impression you didn't think the parents deserved to have any part at all in the process.
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Wendy
SFN Regular

USA
614 Posts

Posted - 06/27/2006 :  11:04:34   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Send Wendy a Yahoo! Message Send Wendy a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Dave W.

So if neither parent had legal custody, why were they even a part of the decision-making process about the boy's treatment?


It is possible (even probable) that the biological parents still have parental rights though they do not have custody of child. Parental rights of biological parents are terminated in an adoption, but they often are not terminated in a custody action. There are many reasons for this. The most common reason is that CPS hopes to assist the parent(s) in improving their situation/attitude/ability to care for the child, and ultimately to return the child to their care.

Millions long for immortality who don't know what to do on a rainy afternoon.
-- Susan Ertz
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Dave W.
Info Junkie

USA
26012 Posts

Posted - 06/27/2006 :  18:51:28   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Dave W.'s Homepage Send Dave W. a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by beskeptigal

We're on the same page then, Dave, and it was your post I was replying to. It was your "bad news" and the last comment that gave me the impression you didn't think the parents deserved to have any part at all in the process.
Oh, no! I see now! No, the "bad news" I was referring to was the fact that the Children's Hospital was offering to bring in quacks to help make medical decisions. Not that they were involving the parents, which I just thought was strange (but see below).
quote:
Originally posted by Wendy

It is possible (even probable) that the biological parents still have parental rights though they do not have custody of child. Parental rights of biological parents are terminated in an adoption, but they often are not terminated in a custody action. There are many reasons for this. The most common reason is that CPS hopes to assist the parent(s) in improving their situation/attitude/ability to care for the child, and ultimately to return the child to their care.
Okay, that makes a lot of sense, thanks.

- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too.
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard

USA
4574 Posts

Posted - 06/27/2006 :  22:04:08   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send H. Humbert a Private Message
Not only do I feel this child's biological parents should have no say regarding his medical treatment, but I feel both parents should be forcibly sterilized so that they may no longer produce offspring.

And yes, I do see why this is an impossible solution. Just telling you how I feel.


"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes

"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman

"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie
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Wendy
SFN Regular

USA
614 Posts

Posted - 06/28/2006 :  08:24:19   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Send Wendy a Yahoo! Message Send Wendy a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by H. Humbert

Not only do I feel this child's biological parents should have no say regarding his medical treatment, but I feel both parents should be forcibly sterilized so that they may no longer produce offspring.

And yes, I do see why this is an impossible solution. Just telling you how I feel.


While I can't agree (for reasons you've stated you already know) I do sometimes think of this as a solution and wonder if it would be an improvement.

These situations are heartbreaking. I see cases where a child becomes a ward of the state all too often. In most instances, exhaustive attempts are made to assist the biological parent(s) in effective parenting skills. These attempts almost always fail.

CPS then places the child in what is considered to be the best environment possible, ideally (their standards, not mine) with a close relative. It's usually the grandparents. The problem there is, while they may not be abusive, per se, they raised the screwed up parent, and they are likely at least a part of the problem. History then repeats itself.


Millions long for immortality who don't know what to do on a rainy afternoon.
-- Susan Ertz
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beskeptigal
SFN Die Hard

USA
3834 Posts

Posted - 06/30/2006 :  01:32:35   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send beskeptigal a Private Message
It would be a dull world, HH, if we started eliminating everyone who didn't think within the acceptable range of thought.
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard

USA
4574 Posts

Posted - 06/30/2006 :  09:34:17   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send H. Humbert a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by beskeptigal

It would be a dull world, HH, if we started eliminating everyone who didn't think within the acceptable range of thought.

Yeah, nothing like letting parents kill their children with voodoo to add a little "spice" to life.


"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes

"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman

"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie
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