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marfknox
SFN Die Hard
USA
3739 Posts |
 Posted - 08/13/2006 : 16:37:57 [Permalink]
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beskeptical wrote: quote:
And the verses you quote hardly void the case since none of those passages goes without equally contradicting passages in both the Old but also in the New Testament.
No, "the case" you put forth was that "recent Christians interpret their religion from everything but actually reading the Bible" and I was merely pointing out that such a contention is just as false as claiming that the Bible is all full of love and niceness. Furthermore you stated: "Find the place in the New Testament where Jesus says God's 'rules' from the Old Testament no longer apply." and "Find where it says 'God is love.'" and I did. Putting forth a list of nasty things the Bible also says does nothing to dispute my response to you. I never claimed the Bible was all full of love and puffy pink clouds. What's more, I already responded to the straw-man defense that the Bible also has nastiness in it. I wrote: quote:
Few educated Christians would deny this. All the non-fundamentalist Christians I know (including most of my family) have always been taught that the Bible is a document tainted by its human scribes. They don't think it can be easily or totally understood by surface readings, and they deeply depend on history, discussion with others, theologians and clergy, as well as their own personal insights to inform them when they attempt to get useful messages out of the Bible. And they don't get self-righteous about their own conclusions.
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"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong
Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com
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| Edited by - marfknox on 08/13/2006 16:40:04 |
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beskeptigal
SFN Die Hard
USA
3834 Posts |
Posted - 08/13/2006 : 21:44:04 [Permalink]
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You were right in that there were verses I thought weren't there. But my statement was rhetorical. Recent Christians do not have a Biblical religion. They have a religion built on gross distortions of what the Bible actually says. To take a few verses and ignore the rest is hardly a religion based on Bible interpretation. Selective interpretation perhaps, but not actual interpretation.
I didn't just put forth a list of all the places Jesus didn't profess, God is Love, I put up a list of contradictions to that statement, and contradictions to the statement the old laws no longer apply.
I don't know that our observations here are all that different but our conclusions are. Your description of the educated Christian is my description of someone rationalizing the inconsistencies in their beliefs from what the religious texts and myriad of interpretations are.
The Christian God is supposed to be this all knowing omnipotent being, not one that should let humans muck up the "Word of God." Even if you buy the idea the Bible's inconsistencies are due to human fallibility, how do you explain the million different interpretations? Why should those "educated Christians" have it all figured out? To me, it isn't that they have figured it out, it's that they have a religion that suits their beliefs and they then match the text to their beliefs. If that is the case, then what is the point of even having a text? |
| Edited by - beskeptigal on 08/13/2006 21:45:27 |
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marfknox
SFN Die Hard
USA
3739 Posts |
Posted - 08/14/2006 : 00:41:18 [Permalink]
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beskeptical wrote: quote:
Recent Christians do not have a Biblical religion. They have a religion built on gross distortions of what the Bible actually says. To take a few verses and ignore the rest is hardly a religion based on Bible interpretation. Selective interpretation perhaps, but not actual interpretation.
Do you make this judgement based on a thorough understanding that you came to with an open mind, or is this something based on only a casual understanding of progressive Christian theology (and Christian theology in general.) I fail to see how a fundamentalist is any more true to interpreting the whole Bible accurately than a Unitarian. I also fail to see how one could read the Bible and then honestly think that a clear and singular overall interpretation could be pulled out of it that we could be sure of. And again, the difference between a fundamentalist and a non-fundamentalist who is also deeply into their religion is that the former gets self-righteous about things that are obviously personal and culturally biased interpretation, while the latter admits upfront to such biases.
quote:
Why should those "educated Christians" have it all figured out?
Are you even reading my responses? THey don't think they have it all figured out. They don't think anyone has it all figured out. They don't think it is the nature of human beings to be able to figure it all out, regardless of God's perfection or imperfection. They think it is all a mystery. They use that word all the time. Their God doesn't hold their hand and give them a list of dos and don't.
quote:
The Christian God is supposed to be this all knowing omnipotent being, not one that should let humans muck up the "Word of God."
Oh, and now you are a Christian theologian? I'm so sick of all this pissing all over peoples' religion from a point of ignorance. Your posts hardly convince me that you've even bothered to read the Bible or learn much about Christian history. If you are going to criticize aspects of Christianity in general, at least do so specifically and respectfully. I believe in religious tolerance, and this is condescention and mockery, not constructive criticism.
some editing. whatever. It's almost 4AM, who the fuck is online now anyway to read the unedited version. Oh yeah, international people. Well, whatever. bla bla bla. |
"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong
Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com
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| Edited by - marfknox on 08/14/2006 00:44:36 |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 08/14/2006 : 03:30:21 [Permalink]
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For those of us who read history, it will come as no suprise that there are the enterprising types who mine gold from the cracks in the pot. Looks like some pretty good pickin's, too.quote:
By RACHEL ZOLL, AP Religion Writer
Sun Aug 13, 3:53 PM ET
Randall W. Harding sang in the choir at Crossroads Christian Church in Corona, Calif., and donated part of his conspicuous wealth to its ministries. In his business dealings, he underscored his faith by naming his investment firm JTL, or "Just the Lord." Pastors and churchgoers alike entrusted their money to him.
By the time Harding was unmasked as a fraud, he and his partners had stolen more than $50 million from their clients, and Crossroads became yet another cautionary tale in what investigators say is a worsening problem plaguing the nation's churches.
Billions of dollars has been stolen in religion-related fraud in recent years, according to the North American Securities Administrators Association, a group of state officials who work to protect investors.
And speaking of the cracked and the potted, it would also seem that our friends at Rapture Ready have finally made the Big Times with their End Times. Congrats to RR! Way to go, guys!! quote:
A Website devoted to "calculating" how long the world has until "endtimes" arrive has garnered a lot of media coverage since the war in Lebanon began a few weeks ago, RAW STORY has found.
"Israel and Hezbollah began trading blows last month, the community at RaptureReady.com, a fundamentalist Christian site dedicated to the proposition that the end times are near, was atwitter, taking the conflict as another sign of an impending judgment day," Tom Zeller Jr. reports in Monday's edition of The New York Times.
"Quotes from — and links to — the site's forums (www.rr-bb.com) became a hot commodity on the blog circuit ('I have been having rapture dreams and I can't believe that this is really it!'), causing a brief service collapse when forum traffic spiked," the article continues.
Uh..., when the Rapture comes, can I have your car...?
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist! 
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JohnOAS
SFN Regular
Australia
800 Posts |
Posted - 08/14/2006 : 18:26:24 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by marfknox
some editing. whatever. It's almost 4AM, who the fuck is online now anyway to read the unedited version. Oh yeah, international people. Well, whatever. bla bla bla.
Hey that might be me!
It's not often someone says something that can outright upset me, but maybe this is my chance. Wahoo. Bla bla bla indeed.
A new saying:
"There are two types of people, those in Marf's time zone, and "international people".
Strangely, this classification wasn't on my recent census form.
"I'm so sick of all this pissing all over peoples' religion locations from a point of ignorance. Your posts hardly convince me that you've even bothered to read the Bible an atlas or learn much about Christian history SFN member demographics. If you are going to criticize aspects of Christianity where people live in general, at least do so specifically and respectfully.
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John's just this guy, you know. |
| Edited by - JohnOAS on 08/14/2006 18:33:31 |
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marfknox
SFN Die Hard
USA
3739 Posts |
Posted - 08/14/2006 : 18:53:37 [Permalink]
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John, if you actually offended by my comment (I don't think you were), you really need to get a sense of humor. I was making a joke about how Americans tend to think of themselves as the center of the universe. Watch some of the comedy of Sarah Silverman.  |
"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong
Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com
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| Edited by - marfknox on 08/14/2006 18:54:26 |
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard
USA
4574 Posts |
Posted - 08/14/2006 : 19:09:00 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by marfknox
I'm so sick of all this pissing all over peoples' religion from a point of ignorance.
How well versed are you in the minutia of astrology? Do you know what each sign means, how long the stars remain in eash "house," or how many traits are generally expressed in individuals of a particular sign? However, do you think you know enough to know that astrology is bullshit?
It isn't necessary to analyze every single christian's peculiar beliefs in order to know that anyone who believes a Jewish man who was crucified 2000 years ago rose from the dead because he was the magical embodiment of an ancient god is off their rocker.
quote:
If you are going to criticize aspects of Christianity in general, at least do so specifically and respectfully. I believe in religious tolerance, and this is condescention and mockery, not constructive criticism.
There is no reason why one need tolerate nonsense, respectfully or otherwise. In fact, I think validating any form of magical thinking is quite reckless.
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"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman
"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie |
| Edited by - H. Humbert on 08/14/2006 19:11:35 |
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marfknox
SFN Die Hard
USA
3739 Posts |
Posted - 08/15/2006 : 02:25:26 [Permalink]
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Humbert wrote: quote:
How well versed are you in the minutia of astrology? Do you know what each sign means, how long the stars remain in eash "house," or how many traits are generally expressed in individuals of a particular sign? However, do you think you know enough to know that astrology is bullshit?
I called beskeptical on making a very generalized comment about Christians basing their beliefs on "everything but the Bible" and then falsely claiming that things that are in the Bible aren't. She was clearly making that particular criticism based on blatent ignorance of what she was talking out. Your bit about astrology is a false comparison. I never said one should know every little detail of Christian history and theology to make generalizations. Further more, one of the things beskeptical implied didn't exist was a Biblical distinction between the old and new Covenants - hardly minutia when it comes to the foundations of Christianity!
quote:
It isn't necessary to analyze every single christian's peculiar beliefs in order to know that anyone who believes a Jewish man who was crucified 2000 years ago rose from the dead because he was the magical embodiment of an ancient god is off their rocker.
So roughly 80% of Americans are "off their rocker"? What the hell is the point of making such a statement? "Off their rocker" means crazy. Are Christians mentally ill? I've certainly heard plenty of other atheist make such an unsubstantiated claim, but is that what you mean to do here?
quote:
There is no reason why one need tolerate nonsense, respectfully or otherwise. In fact, I think validating any form of magical thinking is quite reckless.
How is respect the same as validating? I can show respect for ideas I disagree with. I'm encouraging respecful criticism of religious ideas, not no criticism. And yes, there sure as hell is a reason to "tolerate nonsense" - at least in the USA, it is written into the Constitution. |
"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong
Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com
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moakley
SFN Regular
USA
1888 Posts |
Posted - 08/15/2006 : 05:29:27 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by marfknox
quote:
Originally posted by H.Humbert
It isn't necessary to analyze every single christian's peculiar beliefs in order to know that anyone who believes a Jewish man who was crucified 2000 years ago rose from the dead because he was the magical embodiment of an ancient god is off their rocker.
So roughly 80% of Americans are "off their rocker"? What the hell is the point of making such a statement? "Off their rocker" means crazy. Are Christians mentally ill? I've certainly heard plenty of other atheist make such an unsubstantiated claim, but is that what you mean to do here?
"If fifty million people say a foolish thing, it is still a foolish thing." Anatole France
or
"If a lot of people believe a foolish thing, is it not still a foolish thing?"
or
"Sanity through mass insanity." Bill Maher
I agree with marfknox we have all heard these claims, but when I hear statements such as the following Q&A it scares me.
Woodward: Prior to invading Iraq did you consult your father?
GW: No. He is the wrong father to appeal to in terms of strength; there is a higher father that I appeal to.
Seeking advice from a disembodied voice in your head, from my perspective, is crazy.
But from the 80% that marfknox mentions this would be a reasonable thing to do. |
Life is good
Philosophy is questions that may never be answered. Religion is answers that may never be questioned. -Anonymous |
| Edited by - moakley on 08/15/2006 05:30:45 |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 08/15/2006 : 12:38:24 [Permalink]
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H.H. said:
quote:
There is no reason why one need tolerate nonsense, respectfully or otherwise. In fact, I think validating any form of magical thinking is quite reckless.
QFT!
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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sack of kittens
New Member
12 Posts |
Posted - 08/15/2006 : 14:55:37 [Permalink]
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There is a school of thought contending that Jesus the person was an invention . Considering that many grasp for any tenuous evidence in establish the bible as historical fact , I thought it would be an interesting one to throw in the mix.
http://home.ca.inter.net/oblio/home.htm |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 08/15/2006 : 17:09:21 [Permalink]
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quote:
There is a school of thought contending that Jesus the person was an invention .
I have yet to see a compelling case made for the actual existance of Jesus. However, the unchecked influence of the church for centuries, and their tendency to alter and expunge records to suit the current doctrine, may be responsible for that.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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JohnOAS
SFN Regular
Australia
800 Posts |
Posted - 08/15/2006 : 17:17:27 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by marfknox
John, if you actually offended by my comment (I don't think you were), you really need to get a sense of humor. I was making a joke about how Americans tend to think of themselves as the center of the universe. Watch some of the comedy of Sarah Silverman.
Nah, I wasn't offended, it was just my sleep deprived brain inflicting a (seemingly failed) dose of humour.
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John's just this guy, you know. |
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard
USA
4574 Posts |
Posted - 08/15/2006 : 23:33:34 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by marfknox
I called beskeptical on making a very generalized comment about Christians basing their beliefs on "everything but the Bible" and then falsely claiming that things that are in the Bible aren't. She was clearly making that particular criticism based on blatent ignorance of what she was talking out.
The phrase "I'm so sick of" which you used led me to believe that you were speaking about more than this one instance, but instead a general trend you were tired of disputing. I seem to recall you similarly accused Dawkins of making a "rash generalization" about christians as well.
quote:
Your bit about astrology is a false comparison.
No, it's entirely accurate. If the core premises of christianity are false, what difference do any of these petty arguments make? What would it matter what the bible says if it isn't divinely inspired in the first place? If that assumption is false, then it holds no more authority than a Sears catalog.
quote:
I never said one should know every little detail of Christian history and theology to make generalizations.
You imply that the differences between various christian interpretations are large enough to make generalizations impossible. I'm sorry, but whether the pope is infallible or Mary stayed a virgin is only a glaring difference in the eyes of a particular sect. All christians adhere to certain core beliefs across the board. You can make generalizations based on those.
quote:
Further more, one of the things beskeptical implied didn't exist was a Biblical distinction between the old and new Covenants - hardly minutia when it comes to the foundations of Christianity!
If you say so, although it seems most christians often pick and choose indiscriminately.
quote:
So roughly 80% of Americans are "off their rocker" What the hell is the point of making such a statement? "Off their rocker" means crazy. Are Christians mentally ill? I've certainly heard plenty of other atheist make such an unsubstantiated claim, but is that what you mean to do here?
It's an insane belief. What do you call people who hold insane beliefs? And I've been consistently clear about what I mean. I've said that faith is a kind of functional psychosis. And yes, the numbers are gravely, dishearteningly high. That's why it's a "mass" delusion.
quote:
How is respect the same as validating? I can show respect for ideas I disagree with.
Respect is reserved for ideas of competing merit. But an idea such as "demons run the stock exchange" is not an idea that deserves any respect at all because it is ludicrously insane. Even suggesting that such a notion deserves respectful consideration or treatment is elevating it to station it does not deserve. When the president of the most powerful nation on the globe bows his head on national television, closes his eyes, and claims to be in psychic communication with disembodied spirits, the only sane reactions are shock and horror that such outrageous behavior is shamelessly exhibited by a public dignitary. The very idea that ignorant expressions of a belief in magical voodoo need to be respected is absurd. This is behavior which needs to be ridiculed--publically, vocally, and ceaselessly ridiculed. People should be ashamed of such beliefs.
quote:
I'm encouraging respecful criticism of religious ideas, not no criticism.
And I'm telling you there is nothing inherent to religion worthy of respect.
quote:
And yes, there sure as hell is a reason to "tolerate nonsense" - at least in the USA, it is written into the Constitution.
Oh, please. You point me to the place in the constitution where is says I can't mock religion. Or are you just trying to backhandedly accuse me of endorsing more serious offenses?
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"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman
"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie |
| Edited by - H. Humbert on 08/15/2006 23:41:33 |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 08/16/2006 : 01:24:42 [Permalink]
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marfknox said:
quote:
And yes, there sure as hell is a reason to "tolerate nonsense" - at least in the USA, it is written into the Constitution.
You are clearly delusional. The constitution provides protection for people to say whatever they feel like saying(within certain limits). It also allows me to stand up and call them a whitless imbecile if what they are saying is nonsense. They also are free to practice any religion they choose. Likewise, I am free to ridicule them for it.
Your claim that the constitution makes "tolerating nonsense" the law of the land just makes you look stupid. How did you graduate from highschool, let alone become a teacher? The only thing the constitution does, with regard to religion, is guarnatee people the right to choose their own, or none, which includes prohibiting the government from supporting one.
It sure as fuck doesn't say I have to tolerate anyone's religion to the point that I can't call them blithering idiots.
H.H. said:
quote:
When the president of the most powerful nation on the globe bows his head on national television, closes his eyes, and claims to be in psychic communication with disembodied spirits, the only sane reactions are shock and horror that such outrageous behavior is shamelessly exhibited by a public dignitary. The very idea that ignorant expressions of a belief in magical voodoo need to be respected is absurd. This is behavior which needs to be ridiculed--publically, vocally, and ceaselessly ridiculed. People should be ashamed of such beliefs.
More cheerleading perhaps... but QFMFT!
I couldn't agree more.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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