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Ghost_Skeptic
SFN Regular
Canada
510 Posts |
 Posted - 08/12/2006 : 23:04:46 [Permalink]
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Either way they live up to their billing "bullshit". 
Marf once refferred to Libertarianism as the Marxism of the right and I tend to agree. Both are equally unrealistic and unworkable.
Libertarianism is fine if nothing anyone does has much affect on anyone else - OK if everybody lives a couple of kilometers away from their neighbors.
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"You can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink. / You can send a kid to college but you can't make him think." - B.B. King
History is made by stupid people - The Arrogant Worms
"The greater the ignorance the greater the dogmatism." - William Osler
"Religion is the natural home of the psychopath" - Pat Condell
"The day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the supreme being as his father in the womb of a virgin, will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerva in the brain of Jupiter" - Thomas Jefferson |
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sack of kittens
New Member
12 Posts |
Posted - 08/12/2006 : 23:32:54 [Permalink]
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Thanks again for replies. However I should say that I dispute this is primarily entertainment . It has an aim to present truth in an entertaining way. The showtime site says of the show
"Penn & Teller's mission is to expose the truth to an otherwise desperate and gullible public.
In Penn & Teller: Bullshit!, the crusaders utilize principles of magic and trickery, as well as good old fashioned "hidden camera" sting operations, to smoke out these nonsense peddlers and reveal how they operate.
They also call upon the scientific community for back-up. Penn & Teller have discovered that the evidence debunking bogus operatives exists in countless books, scientific papers and government-sponsored exposés - research that nobody else has presented to the public with such zeal, passion, and conviction.
As our increasingly anti-intellectual, anti-science culture moves on each day to new crackpot subject matters, Penn & Teller are there to aggressively shoot down whack-jobs and fuzzy thinkers, no matter where they originate. "
This is quite clear . In essence all programming is entertainment , factual progams can present such things in an entertaining way . Sure you could argue that at least they promote a cause of not taking things at face value . But evidence here is presented in an unbalanced way yet promoted as the opposite of bullshit. In fact they employ techniques employed by those with views opposite to sceptical thinkers , eg , take a scientific subject that the scientific community overwhealmingly has evaluated and come to a position that is open to further research and find an opposing view causing doubt ( as in the global warming debate ).It suggests the evidence in total is in doubt . They appear to teach the controversy .You could say creationists are thus sceptical thinkers ,indeed anyone ,because they have a position they rationalise that someone may oppose . Then consider that political views are subjective not objective . Subjective positions are not established universal truths.The subjective positions are presented with dignity whilst the attacked position is presented by cherry picking individuals and presenting it in a manner that ridicules.This is not skeptical thinking .I contend they do a disservice .
As for reliable sources , well I do try to question the information I recieve . If a source of information consistently presents credible information , such a source is generally given weight but that is not the same as embodying all known truths . Bullshit is presented as fact with an entertaining approach . Its aim , as the quote above shows is clearly to enlighten .They are up for a factual emmy not opinion emmy. When Penn and Teller present politically influenced information , positions overwealmingly rejected by scientific research , and a presentation of "fact" that favours non-neutral bodies by demonising others it can no longer be considered to have weight despite seemingly good work done .To dismiss the idea of reliable sources is to place science ,the church and all other assorted whackos on an equal footing.
As for politics , if I agree or not is not the point . I should not be misled to agree either.Some presented as fools may have valid political concerns as well , but politics should be presented as politics , science as science.In adopting scientific masks , the show has presented biased science that advances political positions and vested interests . Science advanced on the show has been tainted to try to dismiss research and further aims of vested interests not truth. The second hand smoke expose was woeful . A libertarian position was presented that is substantially backed by large corperate funded science that is extremely murky . Yet elsewhere they attack positions and groups saying they are really about attacking corperate power not science .Greenpeace in GM foods may have some valid scientific claims ( transfer of genes to other plants leading to insecticide resistent pests) as well as political ones (ie frightened of an accumalation of power in powerful organisations ....you know , the ones funding distorted science).This is distraction conjuring at it's best.Politics can distort just as much as irrational belief systems because essentially political positions are belief systems.Politics should not be confused with a "mission is to expose the truth to an otherwise desperate and gullible public " unless it is expressly in the political sphere and stated as such.If a political position presented as fact becomes accepted to the detriment of other positions , this renders opposing views void . When this has happened in history the results have not been good . This methodology has nothing to do with skeptical thought whatsoever . Call it what it is. Propoganda.Distortion. Lies.In the end , for me , in teaching controversy and further politicising science they have made me question evidence presented. Evidence presented by them. |
| Edited by - sack of kittens on 08/13/2006 01:17:26 |
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marfknox
SFN Die Hard
USA
3739 Posts |
Posted - 08/14/2006 : 00:49:13 [Permalink]
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Ghost wrote: quote:
Marf once refferred to Libertarianism as the Marxism of the right and I tend to agree.
Um, it wasn't me, man. But I like that way of putting it.
I said something more along the lines of hunting Libertarians for meat, or sticking them all together on a desserted island. |
"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong
Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com
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| Edited by - marfknox on 08/14/2006 00:49:56 |
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marfknox
SFN Die Hard
USA
3739 Posts |
Posted - 08/14/2006 : 00:53:51 [Permalink]
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Sack-o-kittens, I think you've made some wonderful observations. I wasn't aware of that quote from the website. And I agree with you that Penn and Teller do not make it clear when they put on different hats (pure science/politics).
Although I can't help but delight in the delicious irony of it all! |
"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong
Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com
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| Edited by - marfknox on 08/14/2006 00:55:17 |
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Ghost_Skeptic
SFN Regular
Canada
510 Posts |
Posted - 08/14/2006 : 07:44:03 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by marfknox
Ghost wrote: quote:
Marf once refferred to Libertarianism as the Marxism of the right and I tend to agree.
Um, it wasn't me, man. But I like that way of putting it.
I said something more along the lines of hunting Libertarians for meat, or sticking them all together on a desserted island.
I think it may have been something you quoted in one of your posts. I thought it was a very appropriate analogy. |
"You can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink. / You can send a kid to college but you can't make him think." - B.B. King
History is made by stupid people - The Arrogant Worms
"The greater the ignorance the greater the dogmatism." - William Osler
"Religion is the natural home of the psychopath" - Pat Condell
"The day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the supreme being as his father in the womb of a virgin, will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerva in the brain of Jupiter" - Thomas Jefferson |
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JohnOAS
SFN Regular
Australia
800 Posts |
Posted - 08/14/2006 : 18:15:42 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by marfknox
Sack-o-kittens, I think you've made some wonderful observations. I wasn't aware of that quote from the website. And I agree with you that Penn and Teller do not make it clear when they put on different hats (pure science/politics).
Although I can't help but delight in the delicious irony of it all!
It's not always obvious in BullShit, of which I've only seen a handful of episodes, but anyone who's listened to Penn's radio show will know he's quite openly biased politically. I think the "nut perspective" is usually how Penn describes his own position.
Even thought I don't agree with everything he says, most of the time I enjoy the shows immensely, and often get a good laugh. I'm sure many a time people must have wondered about the psycho in the car next to them almost in tears of laughter while sitting in a traffic jam.
Seeing as I live outside the US, much of the political commentary, and a lot of the names bandied about, have very little meaning in context for me. Perhaps I'd be more incensed if I were a US citizen. As it is, I see BS as an entertainment show on subjects I'm often interested in, from a perspective that I often (but not always) agree with. But it's still largely entertainment, I don't believe it's marketed as a truly impartial documentary, and even if it were, most people are already aware that as information sources go, TV makes for a good source of entertainment. |
John's just this guy, you know. |
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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 08/15/2006 : 11:53:21 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by marfknox
Ghost wrote: quote:
Marf once refferred to Libertarianism as the Marxism of the right and I tend to agree.
Um, it wasn't me, man. But I like that way of putting it.
I said something more along the lines of hunting Libertarians for meat, or sticking them all together on a desserted island.
So do I! Ideological blinders are bad mojo, for Left or Right. As a thought experiment, I like your island idea, Marf. The Libertarians would get their just desserts.
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“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 08/15/2006 : 12:35:32 [Permalink]
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And you guys wonder why the moderate republicans and centrist/liberal libertarians join with their far right-wing colleagues in ridiculing democrat liberals.
HM said
quote:
Ideological blinders are bad mojo,
In the context of this thread, that is a particularly ironic statement.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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marfknox
SFN Die Hard
USA
3739 Posts |
Posted - 08/15/2006 : 12:54:02 [Permalink]
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To Dude, why is it ironic? Because people here are criticizing hardline Libertarianism they must have "ideological blinders"? What is my ideology? What is Mooner's?
If you can't see the humor in the statement I made about hunting libertarians for meat or putting them on a desert island, you aren't thinking hard enough. It wasn't just a random mean thing to say, and it obviously wasn't a literal suggestion. The most extreme forms of Libertarianism advocate pure laissez faire capitalism. It puts faith in the free market - unconscious natural forces - to result in the most just, ethical, and prosperous society. Critics of such a system argue that leaving it up to the market is equal to social Darwinism and won't protect human rights and dignity. Thus, the idea of hunting libertarians for meat or making them all live together on a desert island is an apt and brief lighthearted criticism of purist capitalism.
What I find ironic is that you seem to be offended by these comments - which in context are innocent; pretty much everyone on SFN loves Penn and Teller even if we don't all like their politics - considering how harsh and insulting you are to people in debates on a regular basis. |
"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong
Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com
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| Edited by - marfknox on 08/15/2006 12:55:48 |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 08/15/2006 : 13:26:52 [Permalink]
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From you, psycho, what is ironic is this: You are all up in arms about any even remote slight you percieve towards religion. You consistently jump people's shit for pointing out negative things about religion.
Yet here you are, dissing libertarians, as if they have nothing meaningfull to contribute to the national political discussion.
You have done the exact thing you accuse others of doing with religion, that you apparenly vehemently disagree with, except you've done it with politics.
The sentiment expressed by you and HM towards libertarians is a fine example of two people wearing those "ideological blinders".
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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