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Original_Intent
SFN Regular
USA
609 Posts |
 Posted - 08/12/2006 : 19:21:15 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by marfknox
The more I read about Israel the more I keep coming back to the opinion that Israel was a mistake and should be dissolved as a state. The only good argument it has now is that there is over 50 years and over a generation of history attached to that land and local culture. But I can't see how the amount of lives that have been lost, are being lost, and that most certainly will be lost is worth Israel's soveignty as a State. It was a mistake to establish it after WWII, and it is a mistake to keep it there. I think many people who would agree with that normally are blinded by guilt over the horrific past suffering of the Jewish people as well as hatred for the backwardness of Islam. But I think according with modernist, humanist values, the whole situation with Israel from its establishment has been ridiculous. The world community should relocate the Jewish people to a new homeland. Sounds horrible, I know, but I really think more Jewish people (and people in general) will die if they stay in Israel, and according with modern values, isn't human welfare more important than political, social, and ideological allignments?
Please, did someone take your account over???? Although I don't think you are right all the time, your arguements are usually.... coherent? non-ludicrous??? Maybe I haven't been around enough....
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The Circus of Carnage... because you should be able to deal with politicians like you do pissant noobs. |
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard
USA
4574 Posts |
Posted - 08/12/2006 : 21:39:33 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Kil
So, have you given any thought to where the Jewish people should be relocated?
What the hell, let's put them in Iraq.
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"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman
"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie |
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard
USA
4574 Posts |
Posted - 08/12/2006 : 21:40:40 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by marfknox
The more I read about Israel the more I keep coming back to the opinion that Israel was a mistake and should be dissolved as a state.
What the hell have you been reading?
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"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman
"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie |
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marfknox
SFN Die Hard
USA
3739 Posts |
Posted - 08/12/2006 : 22:22:35 [Permalink]
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Kil wrote: quote:
Oh darn, I wanted to discuss this more but I'm getting a call from the planet Earth that I just have to take…
I didn't say that was going to happen. I think what is going to happen is that I lot more Jews and Muslims are going to die, and it seems to me that the next most rational and possible solution is the Jews getting a different state. As for where exactly, if you'll recall, the UN was considering other options after WWII. I don't know what would be best and I'm not going to put all that much thought into it considering that it obviously isn't going to happen. Just saying that putting Jews into the middle of a region where they are surrounded by people who hate them and want to kill them probably wasn't the most intelligent or humane idea, and for 50 years we've been witnessing the horrific results of that stupid decision. |
"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong
Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com
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marfknox
SFN Die Hard
USA
3739 Posts |
Posted - 08/12/2006 : 22:23:37 [Permalink]
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Original Intent wrote: quote:
Please, did someone take your account over???? Although I don't think you are right all the time, your arguements are usually.... coherent? non-ludicrous??? Maybe I haven't been around enough....
Wow, what an articulate response. |
"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong
Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com
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marfknox
SFN Die Hard
USA
3739 Posts |
Posted - 08/12/2006 : 22:31:05 [Permalink]
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Humbert wrote: quote:
What the hell have you been reading?
OK, what do you propose? Because the only other option, considering that the Muslims in the region overwhelmingly don't acknowledge Israel and want it wiped off the map, is for the rest of the global community to either engage in or support actions which keep the Arab world down enough that they can't act on their desire to wipe out Israel. That's not exactly good for overall diplomatic relations or for the cultural/technological/economic development of the Arab world.
Since some of you are over-reacting to my sentiment, I'll rephrase. Again, I do not think there is a possibility of relocating the Jewish state again. It is there to stay because of a multitude of other forces. (I don't agree with those forces, but that is reality.) The next best think as far as I can see is to try to slowly influence the Arab world so that it does recognize Israel and eventually shares the goal of living peacefully together. Galloway made a damn good point when he said that Israel has killed thirty times as many Arabs in this recent conflict than Hezbollah. The criticism of Hezbollah from the West is all based on ideology, not actual human carnage, and that is a flawed analysis. The only way to peace is through peace. That isn't some tree-hugging bullshit, that is reality. |
"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong
Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com
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beskeptigal
SFN Die Hard
USA
3834 Posts |
Posted - 08/13/2006 : 00:16:25 [Permalink]
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I think the very early stages when Israel was founded were the critical time when actions were not taken which could have led to a different path. Had the early planners seen the Arabs living there as equals rather than as ignorant peasants, (which is reflected in a the historical record I posted links to in recent threads here and/or on JREF), those early political operatives could have done more to accommodate all the parties involved. It seemed to me from the history I have been reading that racism on both sides played a large part in the way the conflict evolved. And if you think about it, the USA was in the midst of incredible racism and Britain had been governing colonies all over the world overseeing other ethnic peoples with the English clearly believing they were superior. One need only look at how race relations in South Africa developed, and at how Australian Aboriginal people were treated to see examples of the times.
Once the ball was set in motion down the path it went, the future was predictable. |
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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 08/13/2006 : 05:40:19 [Permalink]
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When anti-Israel rhetoric rises to the level where Hesbollah itself is apparently considered legitimate by some here, and when the forced removal of all Jewish Israelis is openly advocated here, I think it's time for us all to take very careful stock and reconsider.
Just such a Israeli "relocation" was proposed recently by the fundy nut-job president of Iran. This would be an act of "cultural genocide", according to the UN's "draft declaration on the rights of indigenous peoples." I don't see how a new cultural genocide of Jews is any more justifiable than the holocaust of Hitler, or the pogroms of earlier European regimes -- or the abuse of Palestinians by Israel.
As to Hezbollah, does anyone here even recall the years 1983 and 1984, when Hezbollah, in separate Beirut suicide bombings, killed 63 at the US Embassy, 241 Marines in their barracks, and another 22 people at the replacement US Embassy? Does anyone deny that Hezbollah is a jihadi terrorist organization, which is funded, trained, and armed by the theocratic dystopia of Iran?
Yes, Palestinians have been subject to great discrimination in Israel, and have had many profound injustices forced upon them. Does that justify the largely non-Palestinian Hezbollah to invade Israel, kidnapping it's soldiers, and then firing missiles into Israel from Lebanon? I stating right here that no group that uses suicide bombings can ever be considered legitimate. They have, by their actions, set themselves aside from civilized society.
No justice can come to the Palestinians by either their own, or by outsiders' terrorism -- just as no peace can come to Israelis by abusing their Palestinian neighbors. Let's get away from these obscene calls for genocide against either group. As a practical matter, only a balanced and sane approach can possibly achieve peace and justice.
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“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
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Original_Intent
SFN Regular
USA
609 Posts |
Posted - 08/13/2006 : 06:10:37 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by marfknox
Original Intent wrote: quote:
Please, did someone take your account over???? Although I don't think you are right all the time, your arguements are usually.... coherent? non-ludicrous??? Maybe I haven't been around enough....
Wow, what an articulate response.
Thank you, I thought it was rather clear..... Although technically articulation has to do with speech. I think the word you were looking for was concise. |
The Circus of Carnage... because you should be able to deal with politicians like you do pissant noobs. |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13476 Posts |
Posted - 08/13/2006 : 11:20:36 [Permalink]
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quote:
Marf:
…and it seems to me that the next most rational and possible solution is the Jews getting a different state.
I'm not so sure about how rational that suggestion really is given the circumstances. I mean, reason has to take everything into consideration including the fact that the Jews and the rest of our species are not Vulcan's. I am pretty sure that it is an impossible solution since both sides believe they have a historical claim to the land.
It is also a mistake to think that no progress has been made in the last fifty years. Egypt signed the peace accords in 78. Jordan and Lebanon officially acknowledge Israel's right to exist though there are obvious strains on that right now. Israel and the Palestinians have tried for a negotiated peace (that either Hamas, Hezbollah or Israeli radicals, as demonstrated by the assassination of Rabin, have done their level best to torpedo) and that process can eventually continue. (Again, right now strained.)
Your right in that none of this will be easy and without missteps, stupidity and worse, many casualties because of radical groups on both sides. But negotiation and diplomacy are still the way. It will take years. But there is no other way…
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Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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beskeptigal
SFN Die Hard
USA
3834 Posts |
Posted - 08/13/2006 : 13:15:55 [Permalink]
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HM, I remind you and others not to equate the anti-war movement or supporters with supporting Hamas, Hezbollah, AlQaeda, or (in my case) any Islamic follower who believes women have any less rights than men.
I realize you may not have meant your post to mean that. But so many of the posts responding to what I post try to make that connection, as if recognizing the other side has legitimate complaints means you support terrorist tactics or radical Islam.
Both sides have many legitimate reasons to complain. Both sides are killing people unnecessarily. Both sides' tactics are less than productive. And it seems the most vocal on both sides ignore the needs and legitimate complaints of the other.
I can't say what the majority in either country believe because we mostly hear from the most vocal. It may very well be that 90% of the people in Southern Lebanon are involved in or at least actively support Hezbollah. It might also be the number is 40%. It seems to me the numbers are larger because of Israel's actions. Whether Israel wants to accept any blame for further radicalizing Arabs and Muslims or not, continuing to use the tactics that further radicalized the population is obviously not going to deescalate the fight.
As I posted rebuttals in these threads (in 2 forums), it dawned on me what is really happening is the obvious. One side has to dehumanize the other for any killing of civilians to be accepted. And many people, (not me of course  ), fall victim to that dehumanizing when we accept the arguments of actions being 'just', 'called for', 'no other choice', and so on.
Who cares! What matters is what's the best way to end this crisis before (as someone else put it) the religious extremists on both sides get the Armageddon they are striving for. (Christians supporting Israel not the Jews themselves of course.)
Look at these 2 commentaries and compare the mentality.
quote:
How the UN legitimizes terrorists; By Alan M. Dershowitz
If anyone wonders why the UN has rendered itself worse than irrelevant in the Arab-Israeli conflict, all he or she need do is read UN Secretary General Kofi Annan's July 20 statement. Annan goes to great pains to suggest equal fault and moral equivalence between the rockets of Hezbollah and Hamas that specifically target innocent civilians and the self-defense efforts by Israel, which tries desperately, though not always successfully, to avoid causing civilian casualties. ...
...But he [Kofi Annan] doesn't stop there. He goes out of his way to insist on equating Hezbollah's terrorists with Israeli military response, which he labels "disproportionate" and "collective punishment." He condemns both Hezbollah and Israel....
Same gripe, millionth time. Our killing is OK, their's isn't and don't even express the opinion our legit killing isn't OK.
Compare that to the mentality of this commentary which I have no qualms saying, reflects my opinion.
quote:
How can 'terrorism' be condemned while war crimes go without rebuke?; David Clark; July 31, 2006; The Guardian
As if we didn't know it already, the conflict in Lebanon shows that truth and war don't mix. All parties to the tragedy of the Middle East resort to disinformation and historical falsification to bolster their case, but rarely has an attempt to rewrite the past occurred so soon after the fact. Israeli ministers and their supporters have justified the bombardment of Lebanon as "a matter of survival". Total war has been declared on Israel, so Israel is entitled to use the methods of total war in self-defence. This would be reasonable if it were true, but it isn't. It's completely false.
The conflict was triggered by a Hizbullah operation in which two Israeli soldiers were captured and three killed. Let's be frank, this wasn't exactly the Tet offensive. It certainly didn't justify Israel's ferocious onslaught against the very fabric of Lebanese society. Yes, the rocket attacks on Haifa are an appalling crime, but they followed rather than preceded Israel's decision to escalate the fighting. They cannot provide retrospective justification for Israeli strategy.
The crisis has also been accompanied by the selective and often inappropriate use of the term "terrorism". Following the Israeli government, George Bush and Tony Blair were at it again on Friday, blaming "terrorists" for sparking the conflict. The purpose behind this is obvious enough. In the context of America's war on terror, anyone claiming to be engaged in the fight against this most contested of notions gets carte blanche to do as they please. But the result has been to politicise the term in ways that render it effectively useless as a category of moral judgment or policy analysis...
...But the allegations of terrorism levelled at Hizbullah (as well as Hamas and other groups) by America and Israel go well beyond the targeting of non-combatants. The US state department's annual reports on terrorism also list operations carried out against the Israeli Defence Force as examples of terrorism. The US government justifies this conclusion by way of a logical contortion that defines Israeli troops as "non-combatants",...
...The answer, of course, must not be to abandon any attempt to distinguish between right and wrong in the use of force. There need to be standards if we are to prevent the free-for-all of violence without limit. But these standards must be disinterested, legitimate and robust. As it happens, most of what we need is adequately provided for in international humanitarian law. Numerous treaties and judgments from the Geneva conventions onwards set out quite detailed rules governing the use of force, including the principles of proportionality and civilian immunity.
Under international law, there can be no doubt that many of the actions carried out by Hizbullah and Hamas constitute war crimes that must be punished. The reason it has been disregarded for the purposes of fighting terrorism is that, rather inconveniently for the governments concerned, it applies to states as well as non-state groups. Accepting it would leave them open to unwanted scrutiny and possibly even prosecution for war crimes of their own. In the case of the Israeli government, it isn't hard to see why. Israeli doctrine eschews the principle of proportionality in favour of massive retaliation, as has been amply demonstrated in Lebanon and Gaza....
...So let's hear no more hypocritical utterances about the evils of terrorism from Bush and Blair. Not until they are able to speak with genuine moral authority by condemning all forms of illegal violence, irrespective of who commits them.
quote:
Interestingly, some of the earliest suicide bombings commonly attributed to Hizbullah, such as the 1983 attacks on the US embassy and marine barracks in Beirut, were believed by American intelligence sources at the time to have been orchestrated by the Iraqi Dawa party. Hizbullah barely existed in 1983 and Dawa cadres are said to have been instrumen |
| Edited by - beskeptigal on 08/13/2006 13:18:42 |
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marfknox
SFN Die Hard
USA
3739 Posts |
Posted - 08/13/2006 : 16:50:46 [Permalink]
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Mooner wrote: quote:
When anti-Israel rhetoric rises to the level where Hesbollah itself is apparently considered legitimate by some here, and when the forced removal of all Jewish Israelis is openly advocated here, I think it's time for us all to take very careful stock and reconsider.
I like you very much as a person, Mooner, which is why I'm restraining my response to this. I don't use "anti-Israel rhetoric". My opinions are my own. I have no personal bias for or against Israel, and I'll have you know that my opinions are similar to some of my Jewish friends' opinions. Rhetoric is something repeated over and over again. It is stuff like sound bites and slogans. I resent that me expressing an opinion - that is clearly rooted in concern for all human life - is being called "anti-Israel rhetoric". If you strongly disagree with my opinion, if you think my reasoning on the issues is misguided, that is all fine and good. But do not insult my intelligence.
Original Intent wrote: quote:
Thank you, I thought it was rather clear..... Although technically articulation has to do with speech. I think the word you were looking for was concise.
No, I think the word I was looking for was "empty". You didn't actually criticize what I said at all. All you did was express shock at how stupid what I said was. You gonna back that up or just appeal to majority opinion on this forum?
Kil wrote: quote:
I'm not so sure about how rational that suggestion really is given the circumstances. I mean, reason has to take everything into consideration including the fact that the Jews and the rest of our species are not Vulcan's. I am pretty sure that it is an impossible solution since both sides believe they have a historical claim to the land.
It is also a mistake to think that no progress has been made in the last fifty years. Egypt signed the peace accords in 78. Jordan and Lebanon officially acknowledge Israel's right to exist though there are obvious strains on that right now. Israel and the Palestinians have tried for a negotiated peace (that either Hamas, Hezbollah or Israeli radicals, as demonstrated by the assassination of Rabin, have done their level best to torpedo) and that process can eventually continue. (Again, right now strained.)
Your right in that none of this will be easy and without missteps, stupidity and worse, many casualties because of radical groups on both sides. But negotiation and diplomacy are still the way. It will take years. But there is no other way…
I think you're right. Oh, if only we could all be like Spock!
Thank you for treating me with respect in this discussion. |
"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong
Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com
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| Edited by - marfknox on 08/13/2006 16:54:37 |
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marfknox
SFN Die Hard
USA
3739 Posts |
Posted - 08/13/2006 : 17:21:08 [Permalink]
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I've cooled off a little, so I'm going to respond to this in a little more depth. Mooner wrote:
quote:
When anti-Israel rhetoric rises to the level where Hesbollah itself is apparently considered legitimate by some here
“Legit” in politics is a relative term, as we all know. The mere fact that Hezbollah is as powerful as it is, and that it has as much popular support in Lebanon as it does gives it some legitimacy. Admitting that much does not mean one is approving of their terrorist actions. I think the US government has committed war crimes, was the unjust aggressor in the war with Iraq, and has generally done many nasty things which have needlessly increased human death and suffering, but I still consider the US government to be politically legitimate. But one could argue it isn't from another point of view. Again, that is relative and must be considered in the context of the conversation.
You have totally ignored context. You have just taken things that I and beskeptical have said, re-phrased them to sound worse than they might actually be, and re-stated them out of context. Such as this:
quote:
, and when the forced removal of all Jewish Israelis is openly advocated here,
Who the hell advocated forced removal of all Jewish Israelis? Please quote where that was advocated. You took a vague and rhetorical suggestion – which I clarified and altered to the point of taking it back even before you responded – and turned it into a specific call for political policy and action.
quote:
I think it's time for us all to take very careful stock and reconsider.
Maybe you should re-read what's actually been said here more carefully.
quote:
Just such a Israeli "relocation" was proposed recently by the fundy nut-job president of Iran.
Logical fallacy to demonize an idea because of the bad character of the person who suggested it. Also, what I suggested is not the same as what you turned it into. I never said to where they'd be moved, who would move them, or that it would be forced. I said that was the most logical solution – and then I added that it would never happen because of other forces.
quote:
This would be an act of "cultural genocide", according to the UN's "draft declaration on the rights of indigenous peoples." I don't see how a new cultural genocide of Jews is any more justifiable than the holocaust of Hitler, or the pogroms of earlier European regimes -- or the abuse of Palestinians by Israel.
When people compare everything under the sun to the Holocaust, the only thing they succeed in doing is belittling the horror of the Holocaust.
quote:
As to Hezbollah, does anyone here even recall the years 1983 and 1984, when Hezbollah, in separate Beirut suicide bombings, killed 63 at the US Embassy, 241 Marines in their barracks, and another 22 people at the replacement US Embassy? Does anyone deny that Hezbollah is a jihadi terrorist organi |
"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong
Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com
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| Edited by - marfknox on 08/13/2006 17:26:38 |
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beskeptigal
SFN Die Hard
USA
3834 Posts |
Posted - 08/13/2006 : 21:28:13 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Kil
....
It is also a mistake to think that no progress has been made in the last fifty years. Egypt signed the peace accords in 78. Jordan and Lebanon officially acknowledge Israel's right to exist though there are obvious strains on that right now. Israel and the Palestinians have tried for a negotiated peace (that either Hamas, Hezbollah or Israeli radicals, as demonstrated by the assassination of Rabin, have done their level best to torpedo) and that process can eventually continue. (Again, right now strained.)
Your right in that none of this will be easy and without missteps, stupidity and worse, many casualties because of radical groups on both sides. But negotiation and diplomacy are still the way. It will take years. But there is no other way…
As far as progress, it depends how you measure it. From the local standpoint of Israel having enemies on two sides instead of three perhaps there has been progress. But stand back a bit further and you see increasing Arab Israeli tension manifested as increasing Arab Western tension. I don't know that there has been real progress there. I'm undecided considering your points and will have to look further at the situation.
As far as there is no other way, yes there is. People in Israel who do not hold the extremist views could make their views known. They could put their collective foot down about the settlements. They could object to the torture of prisoners and maybe make it clear the time for covert death squads of the Mossaud is over. Can't Israel release minors being held in their jails?
There were and maybe still are some programs where Israeli and Palestinian children were getting to know each other. When people become human, it's harder to kill them. There's a lot that can be done differently.
One doesn't have to support, condone or allow terrorism. But only addressing terrorism with force has failed, in my opinion anyway. |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13476 Posts |
Posted - 08/13/2006 : 21:50:50 [Permalink]
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quote:
beskeptigal:
As far as there is no other way, yes there is.
There would still have to be a negotiated peace that is acceptable to both sides. So, really, there is no other way.
And by the by, do you remember when Israel was practically begging the Palestinian authority to clamp down on Hamas? Eventually they became more forceful about it after Arafat did pretty much nothing. Every time Israel gave up something in keeping with the peace accords and it looked good for peace, in came the suicide bombers. This is a two way street you know. Oh, and there is plenty of dissent in Israel.
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Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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