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beskeptigal
SFN Die Hard
USA
3834 Posts |
 Posted - 08/13/2006 : 22:13:57 [Permalink]
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I know there is dissent in Israel. I have seen a number of programs about various groups and experiences.
When you say, "begging the PLO to clamp down on Hamas" you are still in the realm of force. And my understanding is Arafat was as much corrupt as he was a leader.
I am talking about dealing with settlements for one. Can Israel claim to not be grabbing more territory while allowing more and more settlements? And the wall they are building isn't exactly on the borders, it encompasses occupied territory. How can that give the Palestinians any confidence Israel isn't trying to push them completely out?
And has Israel treated the Palestinians fairly? I think if one is objective, you have to say no. So how can Israel expect these people to give up when they are poverty stricken, they have an occupying army in their midst and when the army pulls back it isn't very long before bombs are falling, they see Israel taking more territory still and so on. How can you expect people under those conditions to quit fighting? Would you if you were a Palestinian?
Negotiating peace wasn't helped by Arafat. It isn't helped by instilling hatred in Palestinian children in their schools. So there are many many pieces involved in this situation. I am not claiming all one must do is some simple thing. I am claiming the plight of the Palestinian people and recently the Southern Lebanese, when left out of the negotiations is one reason the negotiations fail.
There was some Israeli spokesperson on the news tonight claiming, "we are so terribly pained by the suffering of the Lebanese people" or something to that effect. Whether he believed it or not, I cannot imagine many in Lebanon believed it. I didn't believe it. And if the spokesperson believed it, he has a warped view of the last month of bombing that has occurred.
There was another person interviewed a day or so ago. He was in the US Special OPs. He said their teams would have gone into Lebanon and routed out the Hezbollah fighters, not bombed them from above. He made sense. |
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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 08/14/2006 : 01:24:54 [Permalink]
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marf wrote: quote:
I like you very much as a person, Mooner, which is why I'm restraining my response to this. I don't use "anti-Israel rhetoric". My opinions are my own. I have no personal bias for or against Israel, and I'll have you know that my opinions are similar to some of my Jewish friends' opinions. Rhetoric is something repeated over and over again. It is stuff like sound bites and slogans. I resent that me expressing an opinion - that is clearly rooted in concern for all human life - is being called "anti-Israel rhetoric". If you strongly disagree with my opinion, if you think my reasoning on the issues is misguided, that is all fine and good. But do not insult my intelligence.
Calling your proposal for the relocation of Israel "anti-Israel rhetoric" was the most restrained thing I could have possibly called it. Certainly, after advocating the dismantlement if Israel and its relocation, clearly you don't object to the "anti-Israel" part of what I wrote, right? Was "rhetoric" somehow offensive to you? I never knew the word, "rhetoric" implied repetition. I chose it as neutral. If in your mind it implies that you repeat yourself, please substitute the word, "statement." Anyway, I wouldn't consider people repeating themselves to be a problem. I do it myself.
But I consider "cultural genocide" to be a BIG problem. Did you read the Wiki article that I'd linked to? The UN's definition of "cultural genocide" perfectly matches what you proposed. I am not trying to insult your intelligence. But, as someone who is aware of history, and who would like to think of himself as a "righteous Gentile," your proposal insults me very much. Do you still really advocate this form of genocide? Or are you in denial after reading the link? And who would you suggesto carry out this forced relocation of Israel? The UN? The US? Hezbollah? The Arab League? Do you expect that there would be many Israelis who would not fight to the death against such a relocation? Name a single place where Israel could be "relocated" without a war being required to place it there.
Hitler's Holocaust, the "final solution to the Jewish problem" was just that -- the last and most destructive of several programs that the Nazis instituted against the Jews. There were several other "solutions" that came first: Removal of citizenship from German Jews, forced removal to ghettos, confiscation of property, and deportation to Palestine. The forced internal resettlement, and the deportations were cases of "cultural genocide." The "final solution" was just plain genocide.
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“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13476 Posts |
Posted - 08/14/2006 : 09:18:04 [Permalink]
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| Ya know beskeptigal, you are just ranting. Nothing you have said in your last two posts changes the fact that a negotiated settlement is the only way to peace. Any settlement would have to include a resolution to the issues that you have brought up. I mean, what do you want me to say? Bad Israel…bad Israel… Okay? Happy now? |
Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 08/14/2006 : 09:36:58 [Permalink]
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Israel iscultural genocide.
The answer cannot come by asking anyone but the government of Israel to change first. Fake deals like the Palestinians have been offered before will not help.
Attacking other countries as Israel continues to do illegally, will not help. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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marfknox
SFN Die Hard
USA
3739 Posts |
Posted - 08/14/2006 : 11:35:42 [Permalink]
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Mooner wrote: quote:
Do you still really advocate this form of genocide? Or are you in denial after reading the link? And who would you suggesto carry out this forced relocation of Israel? The UN? The US? Hezbollah? The Arab League? Do you expect that there would be many Israelis who would not fight to the death against such a relocation? Name a single place where Israel could be "relocated" without a war being required to place it there.
You are just reading what you want to read into what I wrote. I never advocated or suggested the forced removal of all Jews from Israel. Personally, I wish the way it was done would be for a new movement (like the Zionist one, but more sensible) to start among the Jewish people. One not based on destructive and irrational religion and nationalism, but on the preservation of their lives as much as their culture.
My suggestion was more of a thought experiment than any specific outlining of new tactics and policies. You're reacting as if I suggested nuking the whole mid-east. People here, including myself, have suggested Israel take extreme diplomatic approaches, and the criticism is that is that terrorism will be encouraged. People on SFN has suggested that aggressive military tactics that aim specifically for terrorist organizations, and that receives criticism that it will result in too many civilian deaths and also might encourage even more terrorism.
I have stated pretty clearly several times that I'm in the diplomatic camp. I made the suggestion about moving the Jewish state to provoke further conversation. You are the one who read into it all this crap about the UN or Arab League forcing all the Jewish people out of Israel. And even after I told you that isn't what I meant or said, you persist. Nice selective reading of my posts.
Israel has only been a state since after WWII and most of the initial inhabitants moved there. One can make the argument that most Israeli Jews are not religious zealots, which is true, but why was that piece of land so sought, despite the obvious drawbacks? All this crap comes back to Holy Land. Nobody gives enough of a shit about simply carving out a decent human living, and that goes for both the Jewish and Muslim people involved in this conflict.
Today, are most of the Jewish people in Israel or indigenous? I just looked it up: http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Society_&_Culture/newpop.html
quote:
Of the country's Jewish and non-Arab population , 65 percent were born in Israel. In 1948, only 35 percent of Jews born in the country.
Basically the situation is really screwed now because Israel managed, with the help of its allies after WWII, to stay established long enough as a sovereign state that now the majority of its population were born there. The longer they stay, the greater a right they have to be there due to cultural and economic ties to the area. It is probably too late at this point to do a damn thing – the real mistakes were make (over and over) decades ago. But don't act like the suggestion of moving the Jewish homeland is similar to relocation of Australian Aborigines or Native Americans. The “Lost Generation” in Australia was cultural genocide. The enslavement of the Aztecs and other peoples by Spain was cultural genocide. Moving Israel – were it possible, and it is not for all the reasons you said and I admitted to before you even criticized me – would be correcting a horrible political mistake made 50 years ago.
For heck's sake – there are still Arab people who remember when Israel didn't exist! And people act like it is so ra |
"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong
Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com
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| Edited by - marfknox on 08/14/2006 11:40:24 |
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beskeptigal
SFN Die Hard
USA
3834 Posts |
Posted - 08/14/2006 : 12:38:43 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Kil
Ya know beskeptigal, you are just ranting. Nothing you have said in your last two posts changes the fact that a negotiated settlement is the only way to peace. Any settlement would have to include a resolution to the issues that you have brought up. I mean, what do you want me to say? Bad Israel…bad Israel… Okay? Happy now?
Just when I thought you were actually hearing what I was saying. This post shows you weren't.
Disagreeing is one thing. Discarding what I've said by calling it nothing more than a rant or that I'm just stating the obvious regarding negotiations shows you didn't hear what I said.
First, it is the government of Israel, the decision makers and the extremists they listen to. It is the people of Israel who do look on Arabs with disdain.
But there are millions of other people in Israel who are not in the above groups. Those people are speaking out. I support what they are saying.
If you have the time read the transcript or listen to today's broadcast on Democracy Now:
Seymour Hersh: U.S. Helped Plan Israeli Attack, Cheney "Convinced" Assault on Lebanon Could Serve as Prelude to Preemptive Attack on Iran
No Shelters, Sirens for Israel's Arab Citizens
Two things are addressed I have been talking about. The first is the rationale for Israel bombing all the infrastructure in Lebanon and not just the Hezbollah sites. The mistaken belief (as history and current events show it is mistaken) that people in Lebanon will turn against Hezbollah for the damage to their lives was the goal of much of the bombing.
The frightening thing is Hersh's take on it as a test run to see what Bush et al can expect from massive bombing of Iran's infrastructure. These guys still believe that such action would cause the Iranian people to rise up against the Mullahs rather than the USA. Cheney cannot let go of his fantasy that people will blame the religious extremists for bringing on the attack. (Apparently Rumsfeld is letting go of the fantasy according to Hersh.)
Certainly Israel's actions here fit Hersh's version of events. Whether one believes Hersh's sources or not it is hard to rule out what he has written.
But look, Hersh is not just Jewish, I believe he referred to himself as an Israeli. There are people in Israel who recognize or believe the error of the current military path just as I believe.
The second issue is the treatment of Arabs by many in Israel. I think the 'bigot' word is being ignored by the US media. And I do not believe everyone in Israel is a bigot any more than everyone in the USA was a bigot before the civil rights movement.
But the prejudice has to be acknowledged before it can be dealt with. The collective consciousness of Israeli and Jewish people seems, in my opinion, to be in frank denial of the issues of inequality and prejudice against the Arab people.
Prejudice has roots and acknowledging it doesn't mean you accept all the blame. And when 2 very different cultures live side by side such as 'old world' Arabs and modern world people (mixed) problems are real. But you have recognize prejudice exists before you can ever hope to change it.
I am not so sure it hasn't gone on for so long that it is no longer possible to change things, at least not very quickly. I think it will take a few generations, actually.
There are people in Israel who believe the same as I do. Later tonight I'll find some links to these groups and see what they have to say.
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| Edited by - beskeptigal on 08/14/2006 12:41:30 |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 08/14/2006 : 12:39:35 [Permalink]
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marfknox said:
quote:
I never advocated or suggested the forced removal of all Jews from Israel.
and also said, before she said the above:
quote:
The more I read about Israel the more I keep coming back to the opinion that Israel was a mistake and should be dissolved as a state.
and also:
quote:
But I think according with modernist, humanist values, the whole situation with Israel from its establishment has been ridiculous. The world community should relocate the Jewish people to a new homeland.
Fuckin A!
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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marfknox
SFN Die Hard
USA
3739 Posts |
Posted - 08/14/2006 : 12:51:28 [Permalink]
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Dude, dissolving Israel is not the same as Mooner's described "Forced removal of Jews from Israel". I do not advocate people with guns going into Israel, loading up anyone who is Jewish into planes, and dumping them somewhere else. I advocate a movement to move the Jewish state elsewhere - a movement that would include the support of Jewish people. A movement not unlike the Zionist movement that put the middle east into this quagmire in the first place.
I also said - three times explicitely - that I agreed with people that such a thing can't happen because of too much resistance from the Jewish Israeli people themselves, and stated that I advocated what I think is the next best alternative - more diplomatic and less military approaches from Israel.
I believe what you've just done is cherry pick statements I've made out of context - something you criticize other people for doing often, and that you say is fallicious. |
"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong
Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com
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| Edited by - marfknox on 08/14/2006 12:52:11 |
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marfknox
SFN Die Hard
USA
3739 Posts |
Posted - 08/14/2006 : 13:08:35 [Permalink]
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Also in response to Dude: Look! I can cherry pick statements I made in this conversation too:
quote:
I didn't say that (the dissolution of Israel) was going to happen. I think what is going to happen is that I lot more Jews and Muslims are going to die, and it seems to me that the next most rational and possible solution is the Jews getting a different state.
quote:
Since some of you are over-reacting to my sentiment, I'll rephrase. Again, I do not think there is a possibility of relocating the Jewish state again. It is there to stay because of a multitude of other forces. (I don't agree with those forces, but that is reality.) The next best think as far as I can see is to try to slowly influence the Arab world so that it does recognize Israel and eventually shares the goal of living peacefully together.
See, here I contradicted myself through my usage of the word “possible”. So, either I was having difficulty getting my thoughts across clearly, or I'm just a blithering idiot. I might be bias, but I think I'm not a blithering idiot. So I'm going to go with difficulty with phrasing my ideas clearly. I used the word “possible” in two different ways, and I depended too much on the context to make the meanings clear. This results in misunderstanding. The proper solution to misunderstanding is further discussion and clarification. Such as this:
quote:
(Kil) I'm not so sure about how rational that suggestion really is given the circumstances. I mean, reason has to take everything into consideration including the fact that the Jews and the rest of our species are not Vulcan's.
(Me) I think you're right. Oh, if only we could all be like Spock!
The problem with a written conversation is that people can go back and cherry pick shit I said earlier before I had gotten better at clarifying and better phrasing what I meant.
See, Dude, in a conversation, especially a conversation about something as complex and emotionally charged as the middle-east conflict, people can throw ideas out there for discussion, change their minds, rephrase things. You have to read through it in sequence and in context to understand all the nuances. I know that is difficult. Especially when people like me are being so sarcastic and patronizing instead of openly and honestly trying to explore the info and all the possibilities. Oh, wait, you haven't offered any new info or opinions into this conversation. You're just shooting fish in a barrel. |
"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong
Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com
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| Edited by - marfknox on 08/14/2006 13:09:37 |
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Original_Intent
SFN Regular
USA
609 Posts |
Posted - 08/14/2006 : 13:35:47 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by marfknox
Original Intent wrote: quote:
Thank you, I thought it was rather clear..... Although technically articulation has to do with speech. I think the word you were looking for was concise.
No, I think the word I was looking for was "empty". You didn't actually criticize what I said at all. All you did was express shock at how stupid what I said was. You gonna back that up or just appeal to majority opinion on this forum?
I expressed shock, because I could not believe you advanced such a stupid proposal.
So......
[quote]Originally posted by marfknox
The more I read about Israel the more I keep coming back to the opinion that Israel was a mistake and should be dissolved as a state.
The only good argument it has now is that there is over 50 years and over a generation of history attached to that land and local culture. But I can't see how the amount of lives that have been lost, are being lost, and that most certainly will be lost is worth Israel's soveignty as a State. It was a mistake to establish it after WWII, and it is a mistake to keep it there. I think many people who would agree with that normally are blinded by guilt over the horrific past suffering of the Jewish people as well as hatred for the backwardness of Islam. But I think according with modernist, humanist values, the whole situation with Israel from its establishment has been ridiculous. The world community should relocate the Jewish people to a new homeland. Sounds horrible, I know, but I really think more Jewish people (and people in general) will die if they stay in Israel, and according with modern values, isn't human welfare more important than political, social, and ideological allignments?
Giving the Jewish people a place to call home, and to watch their own backs in a world that has continually persecuted them for 2000 years was not a mistake. It should not have happened at the end of WWII, but before it. The league of Nations had already made the proposal/decleration before WWII broke out.
Do you really think that you will move them without a long, bloddy fight, or would you count on them to act like their parents and grandparents and be led out? Do you think after the history they have had they are going to pack up and move?
They may be gone in 20 years, but only because most of the rest of the world sat ideley by and watched Iran nuke them.
Guilt, no..... A truely good idea that was not well enough thought out, and never backed up.
Modern values do not apply. They cannot be forced, except by force of arms, which is contrary to modern values. The belief that everyone is going to except things that make sense (which disolving Israel dosen't), or are morally right (which disolving Israel isn't) is a suicidal pipe-dream. Therre is skeptisim and pragmatisim. They do not run hand in hand, especially in the face of religion.
As far as the future of the region...... As long as people attack Israel, Israel is going to retaliate. They are not wanted and are barely recognized. A lot of the Middle East want them annhilated. They know it... It amazes me that so many other people can't see or hear it, or don't take it seriously if they do.
In Arabic Terrorism, cease-fire just means reload and wait for a better time. |
The Circus of Carnage... because you should be able to deal with politicians like you do pissant noobs. |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 08/14/2006 : 15:27:39 [Permalink]
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quote:
See, Dude, in a conversation, especially a conversation about something as complex and emotionally charged as the middle-east conflict, people can throw ideas out there for discussion, change their minds, rephrase things.
uh huh.
quote:
I never advocated or suggested the forced removal of all Jews from Israel.
You certainly did advocate it, and if you realized the foolishness of your statement then you shouldn't be slinging around that phrase with "never" in it. Just admit that you said something incredibly stupid and retract it.
Denial! More than just a river in Egypt.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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marfknox
SFN Die Hard
USA
3739 Posts |
Posted - 08/14/2006 : 18:33:51 [Permalink]
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Original Intent wrote: quote:
Giving the Jewish people a place to call home, and to watch their own backs in a world that has continually persecuted them for 2000 years was not a mistake.
It was a mistake because it makes Israel a big fat target for an Arab world that hates them and has led to the death of many innocent Jewish citizens. It was a mistake because the first thing it did was start a series of wars. It was a mistake because it forces the Western world to supply Israel with weapons to protect itself at the expense of innocent Arab citizens who get slaughtered and is creating a deeper and much larger conflict between the Arab and Western worlds. And all of this we do in the name of guilt over the Holocaust? How about we take that guilt and do something that actually promotes world peace, thus benefiting all of humanity, including Jewish people?
Why did the Jewish homeland and state have to be Israel? Because it was Israel 400 years ago?
quote:
It should not have happened at the end of WWII, but before it. The league of Nations had already made the proposal/decleration before WWII broke out.
Yes, the Western nations used the irrational Zionist movement to establish a Western-friendly outpost in the middle east. How nice of Western powers to use many of the Jewish people in that way, wasn't it?
quote:
Do you really think that you will move them without a long, bloddy fight, or would you count on them to act like their parents and grandparents and be led out?
I've already agreed several times in this conversation that my suggestion is unrealistic due to too much religious zealotry and nationalism on the part of many Jewish people who would rather die than give up this particular slab of land.
quote:
Do you think after the history they have had they are going to pack up and move?
I'd like to point out one more time that Arabs occupied and ruled over that tiny little slab of land for over 300 years before Jewish people started resettling in the late 1800's because of the modern Zionist movement. As far as I'm concerned, that much time cancelled out their rights over the land because nobody alive could remember ancient Israel. The motivation behind the Zionist movement was religious tradition and faith, and last time I checked skeptics generally don't regard such things as good reasons to make political decisions, especially ones that instantaneously start wars and result in a lot innocent dead people.
quote:
They may be gone in 20 years, but only because most of the rest of the world sat ideley by and watched Iran nuke them.
Ha! That's fucking rich to say when George Bush refused to rule out using nukes against Iran. Western nations have hardly sat idely by when it comes to protecting Israel. On the contrary, we've been quite good at keeping the Arab world convinced that modernism is a destructive force. That would be why so many of them are turning radical and becoming radical religious terrorists. How the hell do we convince them of the superiority of modern values |
"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong
Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com
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| Edited by - marfknox on 08/14/2006 18:41:09 |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13476 Posts |
Posted - 08/14/2006 : 20:04:21 [Permalink]
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Hey Beskeptigal, I don't know if you read this but thanks for directing me to it:
WATCHING LEBANON
by SEYMOUR M. HERSH
Washington's interests in Israel's war.
Anyhow, you are wrong that I don't understand what you are saying. It's just that you are all over the place. And you have said nothing that would lead me away from thinking that in the end, a negotiated peace must take place, no matter what Israel and the Palestinians do, or how long it takes them to make peace possible…
It's a simple enough statement.
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Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
Posted - 08/15/2006 : 05:38:55 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Original_Intent
quote:
Originally posted by marfknox
Original Intent wrote: quote:
Thank you, I thought it was rather clear..... Although technically articulation has to do with speech. I think the word you were looking for was concise.
No, I think the word I was looking for was "empty". You didn't actually criticize what I said at all. All you did was express shock at how stupid what I said was. You gonna back that up or just appeal to majority opinion on this forum?
I expressed shock, because I could not believe you advanced such a stupid proposal.
So......
quote:
Originally posted by marfknox
The more I read about Israel the more I keep coming back to the opinion that Israel was a mistake and should be dissolved as a state.
The only good argument it has now is that there is over 50 years and over a generation of history attached to that land and local culture. But I can't see how the amount of lives that have been lost, are being lost, and that most certainly will be lost is worth Israel's soveignty as a State. It was a mistake to establish it after WWII, and it is a mistake to keep it there. I think many people who would agree with that normally are blinded by guilt over the horrific past suffering of the Jewish people as well as hatred for the backwardness of Islam. But I think according with modernist, humanist values, the whole situation with Israel from its establishment has been ridiculous. The world community should relocate the Jewish people to a new homeland. Sounds horrible, I know, but I really think more Jewish people (and people in general) will die if they stay in Israel, and according with modern values, isn't human welfare more important than political, social, and ideological allignments?
Giving the Jewish people a place to call home, and to watch their own backs in a world that has continually persecuted them for 2000 years was not a mistake. It should not have happened at the end of WWII, but before it. The league of Nations had already made the proposal/decleration before WWII broke out.
Do you really think that you will move them without a long, bloddy fight, or would you count on them to act like their parents and grandparents and be led out? Do you think after the history they have had they are going to pack up and move?
They may be gone in 20 years, but only because most of the rest of the world sat ideley by and watched Iran nuke them.
One of the worlds worst kept secrets is that Israel has nukes. Fear not, Israel will nuke Iran much sooner than Iran will nuke Israel.
quote:
Guilt, no..... A truely good idea that was not well enough thought out, and never backed up.
Modern values do not apply. They cannot be forced, except by force of arms, which is contrary to modern values. The belief that everyone is going to except things that make sense (which disolving Israel dosen't), or are morally right (which disolving Israel isn't) is a suicidal pipe-dream. Therre is skeptisim and pragmatisim. They do not run hand in hand, especially in the face of religion.
As far as the future of the region...... As long as people attack Israel, Israel is going to retaliate. They are not wanted and are barely recognized. A lot of the Middle East want them annhilated. They know it... It amazes me that so many other people can't see or hear it, or don't take it seriously if they do.
In Arabic Terrorism, cease-fire just means reload and wait for a better time.
Do Arabic nations not recognize Israel or barely recognize it? Sure. The reason being the actions of the UN and how it was percieved by nations who still remembered invasions of their homeland by foreigners. It was not set up with any regard to Arabic sensitivities. But this could have been overcome.
Israel's actions after 1976 did little to quell ill feelings towards Israel as a good neighbor. Or even one that could be trusted. |
Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils
Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion |
| Edited by - Valiant Dancer on 08/15/2006 05:42:17 |
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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 08/15/2006 : 11:25:02 [Permalink]
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Marf first wrote (with my added emphasis):quote:
The more I read about Israel the more I keep coming back to the opinion that Israel was a mistake and should be dissolved as a state. The only good argument it has now is that there is over 50 years and over a generation of history attached to that land and local culture. But I can't see how the amount of lives that have been lost, are being lost, and that most certainly will be lost is worth Israel's soveignty as a State. It was a mistake to establish it after WWII, and it is a mistake to keep it there. I think many people who would agree with that normally are blinded by guilt over the horrific past suffering of the Jewish people as well as hatred for the backwardness of Islam. But I think according with modernist, humanist values, the whole situation with Israel from its establishment has been ridiculous. The world community should relocate the Jewish people to a new homeland.
Marf later denied:quote:
You are just reading what you want to read into what I wrote. I never advocated or suggested the forced removal of all Jews from Israel.
No, I am reading exactly what I DON'T want to read.
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“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
| Edited by - HalfMooner on 08/15/2006 11:25:50 |
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