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marfknox
SFN Die Hard

USA
3739 Posts

Posted - 09/06/2006 :  17:10:35   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit marfknox's Homepage  Send marfknox an AOL message Send marfknox a Private Message
Holy crapola – 14 pages!

Unlike GK Paul I just took an hour and read every word of this conversation. I like to actually know what I'm talking about before I stick my foot in my mouth.

Cune – fabulous job getting the context straight on that Nancy Pelosi quote!

Kil, fabulous research on the Sartre quote.

Dave W., loved that list tallying the things which are left un-addressed by GK. Wish you had kept it up to mention the stuff about Singer and the Hitler-Darwin connection.

GK wrote:
quote:
The Catholic Church used to have the dogma of infallability of the pope, which meant the pope was incapable of being wrong.


First of all, infallibility is still part of Catholic doctrine – it didn't “used to” be. Second, it doesn't mean the pope is infallible. It means that when he declares he's in a state of infallibility (direct communion with God) that whatever he says is infallible. This has been rarely used in the history of the Papacy – last I checked it had only been invoked 4 times. I know this is aside the point, but if you are going to talk about something, at least know what you are talking about.

Incidentally, I come from a whole huge extended family of both blue-collar and white-collar liberals, and the one thing we don't ever do is put full trust in our leaders. One of the biggest reasons the Democratic party is rather lame politically is because it is so dis-unified and there is so much disagreement and squabbling within the ranks about so many issues. I'd love to know what this supposed liberal doctrine that we all follow is, since all I've ever experienced amongst self-declared liberals is a lot of hyper-individualistic people with their own uniquely-formed opinions. There are political tendencies and tactics, sure, but no less common and no more religious than used among conservatives and the Republican Party.

Oh, and to add to the teacher's union tithing crap – both my liberal mother and liberal I are teachers, both of us teach at private religious schools (mom-Catholic, me-Quaker), and neither one of us are members of or contribute anything to a teachers' union. She does give a weekly check to her Catholic church however, and I give an annual contribution to the AHA and my local Humanist chapter.


You guys all did a great job disputing the naive claim that NARAL is somehow hiding its purpose. But thought I'd quote, too, from their mission statement – which is a mere 2 clicks away from the mainpage of their website www.naral.org

NARAL Pro-Choice America Mission Statement
quote:
NARAL Pro-Choice America's mission is to develop and sustain a constituency that uses the political process to guarantee every woman the right to make personal decisions regarding the full range of reproductive choices, including preventing unintended pregnancy, bearing healthy children, and choosing legal abortion.



GK Paul:
quote:
…Jean Paul Satre said if God is dead everything is permiited... Folks this is where atheism and Darwinism can lead... No wonder Hitler and the Nazi scientists loved Darwin so much... Goodby Western Civilization, it was nice knowing you...

Oh this line is so damn tired. First of all, atheism and spiritual doubt is older than Christianity, opposed to being a reaction to Christianity. Socrates was official convicted of atheism, and plenty of Greek philosophers (The

"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong

Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com

Edited by - marfknox on 09/06/2006 17:15:51
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marfknox
SFN Die Hard

USA
3739 Posts

Posted - 09/06/2006 :  17:22:32   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit marfknox's Homepage  Send marfknox an AOL message Send marfknox a Private Message
From Barry Schwartz - another dirty little godless Humanist:
quote:
As he identifies the realities of our time, its illusions, its slogans, its programmed human relationships, and its lies, the Humanist creates his own mythical base which recognizes both the limitations of the human condition and the need for a more acceptable social condition. In this sense, the Humanist adds to the existentialist: if God is dead everything is allowable -- yes, but not everything is preferable. What gives man his spiritual dimention is precisely this ability to make choices.


From The Humanist Alternative: Man in Modern Art, first published in 1961.

"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong

Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com

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Ghost_Skeptic
SFN Regular

Canada
510 Posts

Posted - 09/06/2006 :  22:37:23   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Ghost_Skeptic a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by marfknox

Ghost wrote:
quote:
Using Peter Singer as an example of atheism is like using Fred Phelps as an example of Christianity.
Please read about Peter Singer before saying that. There are plenty of fanatic liberals that you could compare to Fred Phelps. Peter Singer does not deserve such an insulting comparison. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_Singer



I don't think they are even any fanatic liberals that are equivalent to Fred Phelps. My point was that it is easy to find christians with repugnant views and that claiming such an individual is representative is ridiculous.

"You can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink. / You can send a kid to college but you can't make him think." - B.B. King

History is made by stupid people - The Arrogant Worms

"The greater the ignorance the greater the dogmatism." - William Osler

"Religion is the natural home of the psychopath" - Pat Condell

"The day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the supreme being as his father in the womb of a virgin, will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerva in the brain of Jupiter" - Thomas Jefferson
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GK Paul
Skeptic Friend

USA
306 Posts

Posted - 09/07/2006 :  00:44:41   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send GK Paul a Private Message
Regarding the Darwin / Nazi connection

Coulter states on page 270 that {Ernst Haechel, the creative genius behind the "fake" embryo drawings that were cited as proof of evolution for a century, was an influential German Darwinist. Upon reading "The Origin of Species" Haeckel abadoned his practice as a physician and became a leading proponent of racism and nationalism. He gleefully wrote that Darwinism had overthrown religions "anthropocentric fable" which had falsely elevated man above other species. He called politics "applied biology", a phrase later appropriated by the Nazis.}... (punch in "applied biology" and Nazi on google for more info.

Coulter later states on 270 "With Haechel's encouragement and advice, a Dutch scientist, Bernelot Moen, tried to artificialy inseminate a black women with sperm from a ape." end of quote

I have a feeling Professor Singer, the most influential living philosopher according to some, would have no problem with this experiment. And I also have feeling he wouldn't mind it to be a live sex act (providing of course both the ape and the woman consented).


"Something cannot come from nothing" -- Ken Tanaka - geologist

"The existence of a Being endowed with intelligence and wisdom is a necessary inference from a study of celestial mechanics" --Sir Isaac Newton


GK Paul
Edited by - GK Paul on 09/07/2006 01:05:52
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GK Paul
Skeptic Friend

USA
306 Posts

Posted - 09/07/2006 :  04:58:58   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send GK Paul a Private Message
Coulter implies on page 244 ,245 that children aren't being taught the truth about evolution, and list 7 truths they should be taught. I'll name one; "the truth about the entire fossil record, which shows a very non-Darwinian progression, noticeably lacking the vast number of transitional species we ought to see."

Coulter claims "the cultists know that if people were allowed to hear arguments against evolution for just sixty seconds all would be lost. So they demonize the people making those arguments"


"Something cannot come from nothing" -- Ken Tanaka - geologist

"The existence of a Being endowed with intelligence and wisdom is a necessary inference from a study of celestial mechanics" --Sir Isaac Newton


GK Paul
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Cuneiformist
The Imperfectionist

USA
4954 Posts

Posted - 09/07/2006 :  05:08:46   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Cuneiformist a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by GK Paul

Regarding the Darwin / Nazi connection

Coulter states on page 270 that {Ernst Haechel, the creative genius behind the "fake" embryo drawings that were cited as proof of evolution for a century, was an influential German Darwinist. Upon reading "The Origin of Species" Haeckel abadoned his practice as a physician and became a leading proponent of racism and nationalism. He gleefully wrote that Darwinism had overthrown religions "anthropocentric fable" which had falsely elevated man above other species. He called politics "applied biology", a phrase later appropriated by the Nazis.}... (punch in "applied biology" and Nazi on google for more info.

Coulter later states on 270 "With Haechel's encouragement and advice, a Dutch scientist, Bernelot Moen, tried to artificialy inseminate a black women with sperm from a ape." end of quote

I have a feeling Professor Singer, the most influential living philosopher according to some, would have no problem with this experiment. And I also have feeling he wouldn't mind it to be a live sex act (providing of course both the ape and the woman consented).



Who cares what Singer would or wouldn't have a problem with! You've been duped by Coulter (surprise!) into thinking that "liberals" are a monolithic buch who actually have some sort of clergy to which Singer belongs. Reality is far different. Indeed, until you brought it up, GK Paul, virtually no one here had heard of Singer. And I can say that personally, even after now knowing of Singer, nothing he says has any bearing on my outlook of life. He is, in all honesty, irrelevant to me.

Moreover, you're under the mistaken impression that if can show how people misused the theory of evolution for their own purposes, then evolution must be wrong.

But evolution isn't a philosphy, GK Paul, and its not a lifestyle choice. I am sure that for every tired Nazis-loved-evolution bit, I could pull up a dozen examples about how fundamentalist religious fanatics engaged in some brutality or other in the name of their god. Neither does much to advancing the discussion in any serious way. Of course, that's Coulter's point. Perhaps it's yours, too.
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie

USA
4826 Posts

Posted - 09/07/2006 :  06:00:14   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Valiant Dancer's Homepage Send Valiant Dancer a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by GK Paul

Regarding the Darwin / Nazi connection

Coulter states on page 270 that {Ernst Haechel, the creative genius behind the "fake" embryo drawings that were cited as proof of evolution for a century, was an influential German Darwinist. Upon reading "The Origin of Species" Haeckel abadoned his practice as a physician and became a leading proponent of racism and nationalism. He gleefully wrote that Darwinism had overthrown religions "anthropocentric fable" which had falsely elevated man above other species. He called politics "applied biology", a phrase later appropriated by the Nazis.}... (punch in "applied biology" and Nazi on google for more info.

Coulter later states on 270 "With Haechel's encouragement and advice, a Dutch scientist, Bernelot Moen, tried to artificialy inseminate a black women with sperm from a ape." end of quote

I have a feeling Professor Singer, the most influential living philosopher according to some, would have no problem with this experiment. And I also have feeling he wouldn't mind it to be a live sex act (providing of course both the ape and the woman consented).



Haechel's drawings were oversimplified. He also only had the use of late 19th century scientific tools. While he did champion evolution in Germany, his ideas on race laid the basis for the philosophy of racial purity and eugenics.

Bernelot Moens does not exist. The only one that is close is a Herman Marie (Bernelot) Moens (1875 - 1938) and he's an anthropolgist. He did write a pretty controversial paper in 1920 concerning racial mixture (interbreeding of races/racial purity/eugenics). His field of work was philisophical anthropology. The event eluded to with ape to human insemination has no basis in fact since I can only find Coulter's reference and no one else's. She didn't by any chance footnote this, did she? Or is it just another extremist Christian urban legend?

Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils

Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion
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Dave W.
Info Junkie

USA
25975 Posts

Posted - 09/07/2006 :  07:26:50   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Dave W.'s Homepage Send Dave W. a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by GK Paul

Regarding the Darwin / Nazi connection

Coulter states on page 270 that {Ernst Haechel, the creative genius behind the "fake" embryo drawings that were cited as proof of evolution for a century, was an influential German Darwinist. Upon reading "The Origin of Species" Haeckel abadoned his practice as a physician and became a leading proponent of racism and nationalism. He gleefully wrote that Darwinism had overthrown religions "anthropocentric fable" which had falsely elevated man above other species. He called politics "applied biology", a phrase later appropriated by the Nazis.}... (punch in "applied biology" and Nazi on google for more info.
Very good! Coulter has thus demonstrated that the Nazis were influenced by Haeckel, who while being a champion of evolution, wasn't so much a Darwinist. He had a "unique" worldview, actually disagreeing with Darwin on the relevance of natural selection to evolution.
quote:
Coulter later states on 270 "With Haechel's encouragement and advice, a Dutch scientist, Bernelot Moen, tried to artificialy inseminate a black women with sperm from a ape." end of quote
So Haeckel and Moen were fruitcakes. How does that reflect badly upon evolutionary science?
quote:
I have a feeling Professor Singer, the most influential living philosopher according to some, would have no problem with this experiment. And I also have feeling he wouldn't mind it to be a live sex act (providing of course both the ape and the woman consented).
Who gives a damn about what Singer thinks? Oh, that's right, you're trying to portray him as some sort of liberal pope. Too bad he isn't.

- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too.
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Dave W.
Info Junkie

USA
25975 Posts

Posted - 09/07/2006 :  07:39:03   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Dave W.'s Homepage Send Dave W. a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by GK Paul

Coulter implies on page 244 ,245 that children aren't being taught the truth about evolution, and list 7 truths they should be taught. I'll name one; "the truth about the entire fossil record, which shows a very non-Darwinian progression, noticeably lacking the vast number of transitional species we ought to see."
That was quite true, 150 years ago. Science has moved on. Strict Darwinism isn't taught to children.
quote:
Coulter claims "the cultists know that if people were allowed to hear arguments against evolution for just sixty seconds all would be lost. So they demonize the people making those arguments"
There, she is simply projecting. You (GK Paul) and she are the ones who are demonizing your opponents, by comparing them to Hitler and claiming that a scientific theory is a cause of evil in the world. You haven't made a coherent argument against evolutionary science as it is taught now, and neither has Coulter. You're doing nothing but attacking the people who don't denounce evolution like you do, and doing so using falsehoods (like that Hitler was a Darwinist).

You should be ashamed of yourself for your complicity in Coulter's charade.

- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too.
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Cuneiformist
The Imperfectionist

USA
4954 Posts

Posted - 09/07/2006 :  07:54:14   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Cuneiformist a Private Message
And now at the end of 15 pages, I'll lock this topic as per standard SFN operating procedure. If anyone wants to resume this discussion of Coulter's book, please start a new thread.
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