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Dude
SFN Die Hard

USA
6891 Posts

Posted - 09/06/2006 :  03:48:26   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Dude a Private Message
Again, go to our creation/evolution forum and start a thread. Ask any question or post any creationist claim about evolution that you would like answered. I'll do my best to respond.

Or are you not interested? Do Coulter's lies and creationist propaganda satisfy you?

It is telling, somewhat, that you are in a skeptic forum. Might it indicate that you have a real desire to learn something?

Or did you just drop in to preach at all the evil atheists?

If you are really interested in learning something, I assure you my offer is genuine. Go post that thread, and start off with a Coulter (or any creationist) claim about evolution, and I will do my best to explain the scientific point of view in response.


Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson

"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin

Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth
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GK Paul
Skeptic Friend

USA
306 Posts

Posted - 09/06/2006 :  04:06:36   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send GK Paul a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Dude

Again, go to our creation/evolution forum and start a thread. Ask any question or post any creationist claim about evolution that you would like answered. I'll do my best to respond.

Or are you not interested? Do Coulter's lies and creationist propaganda satisfy you?

It is telling, somewhat, that you are in a skeptic forum. Might it indicate that you have a real desire to learn something?

Or did you just drop in to preach at all the evil atheists?

If you are really interested in learning something, I assure you my offer is genuine. Go post that thread, and start off with a Coulter (or any creationist) claim about evolution, and I will do my best to explain the scientific point of view in response.



I don't have enough time to read and properly answer the posts in this forum and the Caesar's Messiah forum much less going to another forum. Coulter talks a lot about evolution, so its appropriate to talk about it in here.


"Something cannot come from nothing" -- Ken Tanaka - geologist

"The existence of a Being endowed with intelligence and wisdom is a necessary inference from a study of celestial mechanics" --Sir Isaac Newton


GK Paul
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HalfMooner
Dingaling

Philippines
15831 Posts

Posted - 09/06/2006 :  04:42:34   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send HalfMooner a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by GK Paul

OK it seems like some scientists are theorizing our solar system is 5 billion years old. Maybe that's why some scientists theorize life came from comets or other galaxies. Because it doesn't add up (to me anyway) that 10 million species evolved in 5 billion years. Like I said before this stuff also takes faith.

It doesn't add up? Please detail the math which contradicts an earth which is about 5 billion years old. Or was that not actually a deceptive statement, since you have done no such math? That was an example of the logical fallacy called "argument from personal incredulity" on your part, wasn't it?


Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive.
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Cuneiformist
The Imperfectionist

USA
4954 Posts

Posted - 09/06/2006 :  04:49:41   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Cuneiformist a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by GK Paul

OK it seems like some scientists are theorizing our solar system is 5 billion years old. Maybe that's why some scientists theorize life came from comets or other galaxies. Because it doesn't add up (to me anyway) that 10 million species evolved in 5 billion years. Like I said before this stuff also takes faith.

Whhhaa...? Please, get your facts straight. Do some reading some maintstream scientists about these things before you form some ideas about what makes sense and what doesn't. I cannot imagine that any scientist claims that the universe is 5 billion years old. However, some have suggested that life on earth arrive via comets and the like (this idea is called panspermia).

You object (based on intuition?) that 10 million species couldn't have evolved in 5 billion years. Even assuming those numbers are correct (and they're suspect to say the least), it's not even clear why you object. Too few species? Too few years?

Do you even understand evolution? If you're getting you information from Coulter, you are doing yourself a diservice. Indeed, I-- we all, probably-- urge you to examine evolution seriously, so you understand the issues at hand. It is one of the most compelling theories in science and the evidence is oberwhelming.

We can point you in the right direction and suggest websites and books, and we can also answer questions. But ultimately, you'll probably have to so some more intense reading on your own.

Good luck!
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moakley
SFN Regular

USA
1880 Posts

Posted - 09/06/2006 :  04:55:00   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send moakley a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by GK Paul

OK it seems like some scientists are theorizing our solar system is 5 billion years old. Maybe that's why some scientists theorize life came from comets or other galaxies. Because it doesn't add up (to me anyway) that 10 million species evolved in 5 billion years. Like I said before this stuff also takes faith.

(emphasis added)
The argument from personal incredulity. Why do you think this might be compelling? Not trying to bolster your argument but the estimate for the first replicating life forms on this planet is closer to 3,500,000,000 years ago. Doesn't seem like such a small number when written like this.

Keep in mind, GK Paul, that the theory of evolution is not an explanation for how the first life forms came to be, it is an explanation for what happened afterwards.

edited to add evolution link

Life is good

Philosophy is questions that may never be answered. Religion is answers that may never be questioned. -Anonymous
Edited by - moakley on 09/06/2006 04:58:34
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie

USA
4826 Posts

Posted - 09/06/2006 :  04:57:50   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Valiant Dancer's Homepage Send Valiant Dancer a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by GK Paul

OK it seems like some scientists are theorizing our solar system is 5 billion years old. Maybe that's why some scientists theorize life came from comets or other galaxies. Because it doesn't add up (to me anyway) that 10 million species evolved in 5 billion years. Like I said before this stuff also takes faith.



And that would be what scientists? The Biblical evolutionists?

The consensus is that the universe is currently 13.5 Billion years old. Our Earth is 5 billion years old.

Argument from personal incredulity is not valid because obviously you haven't studied the mechanism for change even cursorily and depend on religious pundits for your critiques of the theory. Of course, you have also siezed on a methodololgy of abiogenesis which requires alien seeding of the planet.

Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils

Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion
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Hal
Skeptic Friend

USA
302 Posts

Posted - 09/06/2006 :  08:20:26   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Hal a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by moakley

quote:
Originally posted by GK Paul

OK it seems like some scientists are theorizing our solar system is 5 billion years old. Maybe that's why some scientists theorize life came from comets or other galaxies. Because it doesn't add up (to me anyway) that 10 million species evolved in 5 billion years. Like I said before this stuff also takes faith.

(emphasis added)
The argument from personal incredulity. Why do you think this might be compelling? Not trying to bolster your argument but the estimate for the first replicating life forms on this planet is closer to 3,500,000,000 years ago. Doesn't seem like such a small number when written like this.



When my kids were having trouble with the idea of geologic time, I explained it like this:

Say you have a magic marble. The marble is "magic" because it is capable of making an exact duplicate of itself. The catch is that this replication happens very, very slowly -- only once every 100 million years to be precise. So, if we start at year Zero, in year 100,000,000, there will be two marbles, in year 200,000,000 there will be four, in 300,000,000 eight, and so on.

100 million goes into 3.5 billion 35 times. That means that at the end of 3.5 billion years, you will have 2^35 (34,359,738,368) marbles.

That's a lot of marbles.

Nothing in all the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity.
Martin Luther King Jr.

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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend

Sweden
9666 Posts

Posted - 09/06/2006 :  10:28:10   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Send Dr. Mabuse an ICQ Message Send Dr. Mabuse a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by GK Paul
My cut and paste doesn't work in this site.

This is most likely not because of any problems with the SFN-site. However, please click this link to write us a trouble-report. Please explain in as much detail as possible what particular problems you are experiencing, and what kind of computer/operating system/browser you are using. Perhaps we can help you.

quote:
I've done a lot of reading of books in my life. My memory is my main source.
That explains it. We are aware of the volatile nature memory. Mine, yours, and other people's. That is why we try to look up stuff, and double-check to make sure our memory is correct. Blurting out statements of fact from memory have gotten myself into a mess a few times, so nowadays I either look it up first, or leave a disclaimer. The best thing it to look it up. Wikipedia, http://en.wikipedia.org is a great recource, and is reported to be as accurate as Encyclopedia Britannica.

quote:
Your welcome to do your own research.
That is a really offensive, obnoxious, and patronising statement in a Skeptics forum like ours. Have you even read our mission statement? (Hint: it's at the bottom of every SFN-page.)
The general age of Earth, and the Universe are common knowledge among scientifically interested people (I dare say almost every member of SFN, excluding a few religious fundamentalists and you).

quote:
Edited later: Well, I punched into Google "how many species are there" and the 1st site is World Resources Institute. Thats where I got it.

The probable numbers of species on earth was not disputed, your number of 10 million species does not sound that far off. That's the magnitude I would expect, since it's not far off from the number I heard when studying Astro-biology.

Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3

"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse

Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder.
Edited by - Dr. Mabuse on 09/06/2006 10:34:53
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend

Sweden
9666 Posts

Posted - 09/06/2006 :  10:42:50   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Send Dr. Mabuse an ICQ Message Send Dr. Mabuse a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by GK Paul

OK it seems like some scientists are theorizing our solar system is 5 billion years old. Maybe that's why some scientists theorize life came from comets or other galaxies. Because it doesn't add up (to me anyway) that 10 million species evolved in 5 billion years. Like I said before this stuff also takes faith.

Please examine Hal's example above.

Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3

"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse

Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder.
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Cuneiformist
The Imperfectionist

USA
4954 Posts

Posted - 09/06/2006 :  11:01:45   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Cuneiformist a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Hal
Say you have a magic marble. The marble is "magic" because it is capable of making an exact duplicate of itself. The catch is that this replication happens very, very slowly -- only once every 100 million years to be precise. So, if we start at year Zero, in year 100,000,000, there will be two marbles, in year 200,000,000 there will be four, in 300,000,000 eight, and so on.

100 million goes into 3.5 billion 35 times. That means that at the end of 3.5 billion years, you will have 2^35 (34,359,738,368) marbles.

That's a lot of marbles.
Yeah it is! Excellent example. Amazingly, the number of marbles you have at that point averages to about 1 per year!

And welcome to SFN, Hal.
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Hal
Skeptic Friend

USA
302 Posts

Posted - 09/06/2006 :  11:30:31   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Hal a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Cuneiformist

quote:
Originally posted by Hal


100 million goes into 3.5 billion 35 times. That means that at the end of 3.5 billion years, you will have 2^35 (34,359,738,368) marbles.

That's a lot of marbles.
Yeah it is! Excellent example. Amazingly, the number of marbles you have at that point averages to about 1 per year!

And welcome to SFN, Hal.



Thanks for the welcome. Actually, I've been a habitual lurker here for quite some time. And I think you meant to say it averages to almost 10 marbles per year. Obviously, this only happened because I happened to pick a power of 10 for my marble life-cycle.

Nothing in all the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity.
Martin Luther King Jr.

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HalfMooner
Dingaling

Philippines
15831 Posts

Posted - 09/06/2006 :  12:28:24   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send HalfMooner a Private Message
Dammit, Hal! God made those all those marbles. They did not evolve from dirty little soulless pebbles!

That was a wonderful mind experiment. And welcome to posting on SFN, Hal!


Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive.
Edited by - HalfMooner on 09/06/2006 12:29:57
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leoofno
Skeptic Friend

USA
346 Posts

Posted - 09/06/2006 :  13:44:07   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send leoofno a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by HalfMooner

Dammit, Hal! God made those all those marbles. They did not evolve from dirty little soulless pebbles!

That was a wonderful mind experiment. And welcome to posting on SFN, Hal!



Quite! And notice too that this example of evolution requires a "magic" marble. Proof that evolution has no basis in true science; it takes more faith to believe in a magic marble than God! Try it with a regular marble and you will see the truth behind the marble-to-man theory of evolution!

"If you're not terrified, you're not paying attention." Eric Alterman
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Hal
Skeptic Friend

USA
302 Posts

Posted - 09/06/2006 :  14:14:47   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Hal a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by leoofno



Quite! And notice too that this example of evolution requires a "magic" marble. Proof that evolution has no basis in true science; it takes more faith to believe in a magic marble than God! Try it with a regular marble and you will see the truth behind the marble-to-man theory of evolution!



I'm going to try it when I get home tonight. It's going to take a while for the results to come in....

Nothing in all the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity.
Martin Luther King Jr.

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Dude
SFN Die Hard

USA
6891 Posts

Posted - 09/06/2006 :  14:26:06   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Dude a Private Message
GK Paul said:
quote:
I don't have enough time to read and properly answer the posts in this forum and the Caesar's Messiah forum much less going to another forum. Coulter talks a lot about evolution, so its appropriate to talk about it in here.


So you are uninterested in having your misconceptions about evolution addressed. Noted.


Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson

"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin

Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth
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