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Michael Mozina
SFN Regular

1647 Posts

Posted - 08/28/2006 :  01:38:28   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Michael Mozina's Homepage Send Michael Mozina a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Dave W.

By the way, a video of the raw frames, recentered and cropped to try to match the "gold" video, can be viewed here.



Awesome!
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Cuneiformist
The Imperfectionist

USA
4954 Posts

Posted - 08/28/2006 :  04:55:38   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Cuneiformist a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Michael Mozina
Actually, that image simply demonstrates that there is a *surface* on Mars. That's why there's a stable "shape" in the image.
Wow-- way to miss the point, Michael.
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Dave W.
Info Junkie

USA
26013 Posts

Posted - 08/28/2006 :  06:08:32   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Dave W.'s Homepage Send Dave W. a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Michael Mozina

Awesome!
Indeed.

Are you going to answer my question, or explain the differences between the frames you picked?

- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too.
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Michael Mozina
SFN Regular

1647 Posts

Posted - 08/28/2006 :  09:37:26   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Michael Mozina's Homepage Send Michael Mozina a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Cuneiformist

quote:
Originally posted by Michael Mozina
Actually, that image simply demonstrates that there is a *surface* on Mars. That's why there's a stable "shape" in the image.
Wow-- way to miss the point, Michael.



I did not miss your point Cune. I hear you. I will even acknowledge right now that there is some truth in your statements as it relates to the RD images. There are in fact several relatively stable "features" in the gold RD image that are not necessarily created by anything solid. This is in fact a very complicated image to explain, and there are some things about it, and in it, that cannot simply be "assumed" to be solid. I will grant that some things in this image that appear to be solid are not.

Having said that, were it not for the solids that exist at the surface, the patterns themselves would not remain this "rigid" over such extended periods of time. There are some things that exist in this image that appear to be solid and are in fact solid. You might start by asking yourself how it is that magnetic fields, presumably from deep in the solar core, stay "stable" to a single pixel in the first place? If you look at Dave's movie of the raw images, that are even cropped to show the same areas of the surface as the first image, you'll notice that the ends of some loops stays "fixed" near the surface while the tops of the loops move around in the atmosphere. Some loops have one footprint that stays fixed, while the other end moves around rather dramatically. The "peeling" we see in the RD images can also be seen in Dave's movie too, as the coronal loops change their position and behavior after/during the CME event. We can even see where the "dust" material comes from in both images, and the lines in the RD image between the center and Teardrop Hill are direct result of this flying material settling back to the surface again.

Notice all the odd and angular patterns taken by the coronal loops in Dave's raw footage. How do magnetic fields that presumably begin deep in the core create such intricate and angular patterns at that specific depth in the solar atmosphere?
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Michael Mozina
SFN Regular

1647 Posts

Posted - 08/28/2006 :  10:16:51   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Michael Mozina's Homepage Send Michael Mozina a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Dave W.
And we know that the time between the two frames is less than 1.5 hours. Why would you expect to see large-scale "geometric" changes in magnetic fields in such a short time?


What keeps them ancored to a single pixel in the first place Dave? Why do they take off at such odd angles from that specific point on the "surface"? In your movie, we see material getting ejected from the surface and then being sucked back into the middle region again. What's that about? Why do the loop tops move around while the footprints remain fixed? How does the core create such stable magnetic fields that stay ancored to within a few hundred kilometers at the surface when it's 696,000 Km from the core?

Why aren't we seeing "smooth arches" of magnetic fields coming out of the surface, and why are these odd angled loops all interacting at this point (z distance from core) in the solar atmosphere?

quote:
Not that some such changes don't occur. Here's what you need to explain, Michael:


I'm not actually clear on what you're asking me for Dave. Are you asking me why some pixels are brighter or darker? These are simply changing lighting conditions in individual areas.

FYI, I *really* appreciate the time and effort you put into cropping that raw footage and putting that movie together like you did. Thank you. That will definitely help move things along since both images can be compared side by side.

Notice all the different angles that the loops take at the "surface". In your opinion, why are we seeing such complex magnetic patterns at exactly this "depth" in the solar atmosphere?
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Michael Mozina
SFN Regular

1647 Posts

Posted - 08/28/2006 :  11:06:51   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Michael Mozina's Homepage Send Michael Mozina a Private Message
Just to have everything on this page:
Dave's movie:
http://www.psorsite.com/mozina/GoldRaw.avi
RD Movie
http://thesurfaceofthesun.com/images/T171_000828.avi


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Michael Mozina
SFN Regular

1647 Posts

Posted - 08/28/2006 :  11:15:39   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Michael Mozina's Homepage Send Michael Mozina a Private Message



Ok Dave, let's start with the "peeling" effect (denoted ridge of connected field in the image above) that we see occuring in your movie to right of the CME event, and manifesting itself in the RD images. This process is also taking place in G3,G4 & G5 in Geemack's grid. What is it? What is causing that "effect" in the raw images? At what position in the solar atmosphere are we seeing this 'peeling' as the coronal loop change on the right side of the CME event?

Edited by - Michael Mozina on 08/28/2006 11:19:49
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Dave W.
Info Junkie

USA
26013 Posts

Posted - 08/28/2006 :  12:26:26   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Dave W.'s Homepage Send Dave W. a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Michael Mozina

What keeps them ancored to a single pixel in the first place Dave?
Nothing. I see nothing to support the idea that they are "anchored" in the first place. Why do you think they have to move in just 1.5 hours? Why won't you answer that question?
quote:
Why do they take off at such odd angles from that specific point on the "surface"?
They're magnetic fields. What is a "normal" angle (as opposed to an "odd" angle)?
quote:
In your movie, we see material getting ejected from the surface and then being sucked back into the middle region again. What's that about?
You know exactly what it's about - some of the material ejected in the CME got caught up in a magnetic field loop and followed the path determined by the physics of the situation.
quote:
Why do the loop tops move around while the footprints remain fixed?
How do you know the footprints are "fixed?" Why would you expect to see them move in 1.5 hours? I don't see that every "loop top" moves around, anyway.
quote:
How does the core create such stable magnetic fields that stay ancored to within a few hundred kilometers at the surface when it's 696,000 Km from the core?
The core doesn't create the magnetic fields, Michael. You might take the time to learn something about the current model before continuing.
quote:
Why aren't we seeing "smooth arches" of magnetic fields coming out of the surface...
I see plenty of "smooth arches," and I'm not sure I can help you see them if they're not obvious to you already.
quote:
...and why are these odd angled loops all interacting at this point (z distance from core) in the solar atmosphere?
What "point?" We're looking down through thousands of kilometers of corona.
quote:
quote:
Not that some such changes don't occur. Here's what you need to explain, Michael:
I'm not actually clear on what you're asking me for Dave. Are you asking me why some pixels are brighter or darker? These are simply changing lighting conditions in individual areas.
That's not a "detailed explanation," Michael. Show us the light sources and show how they move over time to create the effects we see, including a deep darkening of the right-hand side of the feature seen in GeeMack's H5 which seems contrary to the massive brightening in the middle of the image.

And before, you claimed that an overall brightening was responsible for everything becoming larger, but even the dark areas become larger. Are you going to explain that with something other than the handwave of "lighting changes?"
quote:
FYI, I *really* appreciate the time and effort you put into cropping that raw footage and putting that movie together like you did. Thank you. That will definitely help move things along since both images can be compared side by side.
I spent a lot of time trying to recreate the look of the "gold" video, too, which is why I know it's not a simple RD video, but involves a fairly complex algorithm.
quote:
Notice all the different angles that the loops take at the "surface". In your opinion, why are we seeing such complex magnetic patterns at exactly this "depth" in the solar atmosphere?
Why wouldn't we see such things in the corona, Michael? Do you know something about magnetic fields which precludes such behaviour?

- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too.
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Dave W.
Info Junkie

USA
26013 Posts

Posted - 08/28/2006 :  12:32:47   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Dave W.'s Homepage Send Dave W. a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Michael Mozina

Ok Dave, let's start with the "peeling" effect (denoted ridge of connected field in the image above) that we see occuring in your movie to right of the CME event, and manifesting itself in the RD images. This process is also taking place in G3,G4 & G5 in Geemack's grid. What is it? What is causing that "effect" in the raw images? At what position in the solar atmosphere are we seeing this 'peeling' as the coronal loop change on the right side of the CME event?
Looking at the raw movie I put together, it's pretty obvious that what's occuring there is that a sheet-like set of magnetic field loops is rising up into the corona. We're looking almost right down on top of it, so we just see a slow expansion off to the right. Had we had a more perpendicular angle, we would have seen a huge "fan" of plasma, very much like one of the previous still images you showed us months ago.

- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too.
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Michael Mozina
SFN Regular

1647 Posts

Posted - 08/28/2006 :  12:33:43   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Michael Mozina's Homepage Send Michael Mozina a Private Message
http://www.thesurfaceofthesun.com/images/yohkohview.mpg

This is Yohkoh's view of this same event by the way. It is interesting to see how this event plays out from the viewpoint of Yohkoh.
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Dave W.
Info Junkie

USA
26013 Posts

Posted - 08/28/2006 :  13:04:40   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Dave W.'s Homepage Send Dave W. a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Michael Mozina

This is Yohkoh's view of this same event by the way. It is interesting to see how this event plays out from the viewpoint of Yohkoh.
The whole 1.5-hour timespan of the TRACE movie goes by in an eyeblink in the Yohkoh movie.

- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too.
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Michael Mozina
SFN Regular

1647 Posts

Posted - 08/28/2006 :  13:37:57   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Michael Mozina's Homepage Send Michael Mozina a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Dave W.

quote:
Originally posted by Michael Mozina

This is Yohkoh's view of this same event by the way. It is interesting to see how this event plays out from the viewpoint of Yohkoh.
The whole 1.5-hour timespan of the TRACE movie goes by in an eyeblink in the Yohkoh movie.



That's certainly true.

FYI, today is the first day of school for many of our centers, and it's a busy at work. Be a bit patient today. I may not get time to respond to your last few posts till after work.
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Dave W.
Info Junkie

USA
26013 Posts

Posted - 08/28/2006 :  13:46:13   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Dave W.'s Homepage Send Dave W. a Private Message
Oh, and note that today is the sixth anniversary of the flare in the "gold" video.

- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too.
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Michael Mozina
SFN Regular

1647 Posts

Posted - 08/28/2006 :  13:49:46   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Michael Mozina's Homepage Send Michael Mozina a Private Message
One quick question for you Dave. What is the heat source that allows these loops to reach millions of degrees?
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Michael Mozina
SFN Regular

1647 Posts

Posted - 08/28/2006 :  13:53:49   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Michael Mozina's Homepage Send Michael Mozina a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Dave W.

Oh, and note that today is the sixth anniversary of the flare in the "gold" video.



How appropriate. :)
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