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 Octopus vs. Shark (video)
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard

USA
4574 Posts

Posted - 08/29/2006 :  17:42:44  Show Profile Send H. Humbert a Private Message
A cool National Geographic video showing what's really the top ocean predator: Octopus Kills Shark.


"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes

"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman

"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie

pleco
SFN Addict

USA
2996 Posts

Posted - 08/29/2006 :  17:53:46   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit pleco's Homepage Send pleco a Private Message
Poor shark! Cool Video!

by Filthy
The neo-con methane machine will soon be running at full fart.
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Ricky
SFN Die Hard

USA
4907 Posts

Posted - 08/29/2006 :  18:03:01   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Send Ricky an AOL message Send Ricky a Private Message
The video doesn't work if you don't use internet explorer. For those of you who hate microsoft don't use it, below is the google video version:

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-7004909622962894202&q=Octopus+kills+shark

Why continue? Because we must. Because we have the call. Because it is nobler to fight for rationality without winning than to give up in the face of continued defeats. Because whatever true progress humanity makes is through the rationality of the occasional individual and because any one individual we may win for the cause may do more for humanity than a hundred thousand who hug their superstitions to their breast.
- Isaac Asimov
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beskeptigal
SFN Die Hard

USA
3834 Posts

Posted - 08/29/2006 :  19:08:47   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send beskeptigal a Private Message
That's our local aquarium. I've seen those sharks cruising the tank and I can see why they'd be easy prey. I think I recall the news about this. It's a few years old.

I was trying to find the original story but it isn't readily available. I did find one reference that was dated 2003 so I would say it is at least that old of an event.

But I found Dembski made this ignorant remark on his blog about the video which is apparently making the rounds again:

"*(even though the octopus is an invertebrate, and therefore supposed by some to be necessarily stupider than a vertebrate like the shark)"

As if there was some 'rule' about intelligence and back bones and therefore it's one more strike against evolutionary theory. I doubt there is a serious biologist alive that doesn't know octopi are incredibly intelligent creatures.

Funny how these items take on a new life as if the event was recent. Still, it's an incredible video. Thanks Ricky. I don't want to switch to explorer just to use Windows media player.
Edited by - beskeptigal on 08/29/2006 19:10:35
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HalfMooner
Dingaling

Philippines
15831 Posts

Posted - 08/29/2006 :  20:05:41   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send HalfMooner a Private Message
That's very impressive. I've learned yet another thing I hadn't known about nature. I had known the octopus was smart, capable of unscrewing lids on jars to get to food. But I never thought one could, or would, take on a shark!


Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive.
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beskeptigal
SFN Die Hard

USA
3834 Posts

Posted - 08/29/2006 :  22:00:37   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send beskeptigal a Private Message
Here's a fascinating synopsis of all sorts of intelligent behaviors of octopi.
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Kil
Evil Skeptic

USA
13463 Posts

Posted - 08/29/2006 :  23:00:57   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Kil's Homepage  Send Kil an AOL message  Send Kil a Yahoo! Message Send Kil a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by beskeptigal

Here's a fascinating synopsis of all sorts of intelligent behaviors of octopi.

Cool article...

Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.

Why not question something for a change?

Genetic Literacy Project
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Dude
SFN Die Hard

USA
6891 Posts

Posted - 08/30/2006 :  00:17:44   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Dude a Private Message
quote:
"*(even though the octopus is an invertebrate, and therefore supposed by some to be necessarily stupider than a vertebrate like the shark)"



Dembski is an idiot.

The intelligence of cephalopods (octopus and squid) is well documented, they are probably smarter than dolphins.


Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson

"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin

Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth
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Ricky
SFN Die Hard

USA
4907 Posts

Posted - 08/30/2006 :  07:53:26   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Send Ricky an AOL message Send Ricky a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Dude

quote:
"*(even though the octopus is an invertebrate, and therefore supposed by some to be necessarily stupider than a vertebrate like the shark)"



Dembski is an idiot.

The intelligence of cephalopods (octopus and squid) is well documented, they are probably smarter than dolphins.



But, "So long, and thanks for all the crustaceans," just doesn't have that certain ring to it.

Why continue? Because we must. Because we have the call. Because it is nobler to fight for rationality without winning than to give up in the face of continued defeats. Because whatever true progress humanity makes is through the rationality of the occasional individual and because any one individual we may win for the cause may do more for humanity than a hundred thousand who hug their superstitions to their breast.
- Isaac Asimov
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filthy
SFN Die Hard

USA
14408 Posts

Posted - 08/30/2006 :  11:06:34   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send filthy a Private Message
My brother, he highschool graduation fame, has dome some research on cephalopods. Octopi are quite intellegent. And they are highly aggressive, even the common, little Octopus vulgaris so often seen in popular cusine.

The tiny blue ring octopus, of Australia, comes to mind. This little guy, about the size of a silver dollar, will happily take on a mantis shrimp or crab many times it's size and mass. All it has to do is get a good bite in, and the fight is over. It is highly venomous and medically signifecent to humans.

Damn this computer!




"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)

"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres


"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude

Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,

and Crypto-Communist!

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HalfMooner
Dingaling

Philippines
15831 Posts

Posted - 08/30/2006 :  11:34:07   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send HalfMooner a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Ricky

quote:
Originally posted by Dude

quote:
"*(even though the octopus is an invertebrate, and therefore supposed by some to be necessarily stupider than a vertebrate like the shark)"



Dembski is an idiot.

The intelligence of cephalopods (octopus and squid) is well documented, they are probably smarter than dolphins.



But, "So long, and thanks for all the crustaceans," just doesn't have that certain ring to it.

Aside from Dembski being an idiot (which is an evidenced statement) the whole question of comparative animal intelligence and animal cognition is up in the air.

There does not exist even agreement on what intelligence is, much less how do do an unbiased "IQ test" across the vastly divergent species, with vastly differing lifestyles in vastly divergent ecological niches, and vastly different sensoria. Wouldn't a behavior that is "intelligent" for one species be totally stupid for another? What standardized test would possibly work for cetaceans, humans, dogs, apes, parrots, and cephalopods? This is one of the many problems in the field. Despite many previous attempts, I suspect that the study of comparative animal cognition will actually only realistically begin after many more years of research and discussion can arrive at definitions of what is being looked for, and how to measure it.

So we don't know what do measure, nor how to measure it. Meanwhile, we all have an innate sense that some critters are smarter than others.

This is a field, in my opinion, that is not yet even in its infancy.


Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive.
Edited by - HalfMooner on 08/30/2006 11:36:12
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Starman
SFN Regular

Sweden
1613 Posts

Posted - 08/30/2006 :  11:36:14   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Starman a Private Message
And I for one welcome our new cephalopod overlords.
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Dave W.
Info Junkie

USA
26009 Posts

Posted - 08/30/2006 :  12:06:09   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Dave W.'s Homepage Send Dave W. a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Starman

And I for one welcome our new cephalopod overlords.
I very much hope to be eaten first.

- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too.
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pleco
SFN Addict

USA
2996 Posts

Posted - 08/30/2006 :  12:12:30   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit pleco's Homepage Send pleco a Private Message
quote:
Damn this computer!


Yes sir, I damn it!

by Filthy
The neo-con methane machine will soon be running at full fart.
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Starman
SFN Regular

Sweden
1613 Posts

Posted - 08/30/2006 :  12:19:44   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Starman a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Dave W.

I very much hope to be eaten first.
Indeed
Edited by - Starman on 08/30/2006 12:29:21
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beskeptigal
SFN Die Hard

USA
3834 Posts

Posted - 08/30/2006 :  13:59:33   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send beskeptigal a Private Message
HM, that argument about animal cognition can be viewed in one of two ways.

Either, one should deny animal behavior has elements of human behavior and we must not attribute human qualities to animals without absolute evidence,

or, one denies animal behavior could possibly include human characteristics because they are old school and can't get over the fact we are all related.

I don't buy the perfectionist evidence crap. It leaves out the most obvious evidence, that of there being no way human brains just completely changed into sentient, emotional beings when we emerged from our more recent ancestors. Clearly everything about the brain evolved in some semblance of a continuum. Any idiot who thinks they aren't observing emotions in intelligent animals and instead are attributing human characteristics to that animal without evidence lacks common sense and should read more of Jane Goodall's incredible compilations of observations or get a dog! If it looks like a smile, it probably is a smile.


As far as tests go, all sorts of tests have confirmed various thought processes are occurring in animal brains. Parrots can tell you if an object is made of wood or metal, its shape, its name, and how many up to about 6 or so. Dolphins can figure out how to solve various puzzles but stopped short of being able to put a number of unrelated tasks together to accomplish a single different task. And my favorite personal experience was watching a raccoon pick up two burning candles one at a time and turn them carefully over to snuff them out so it could eat the oatmeal we left out for it in the dark instead of in the light.
Edited by - beskeptigal on 08/30/2006 14:05:27
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