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beskeptigal
SFN Die Hard

USA
3834 Posts

Posted - 09/15/2006 :  23:13:46   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send beskeptigal a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by marfknox

Isaac Asimov once said that he couldn't imagine any kind of heaven that would make him want to live eternally. Either one would eventually get bored or one would cease to be oneself.

Amazing such a limited thought coming from such an imaginative person. I would think living for eternity (regardless of where) would be in a place that moved through time as everything else does. It would be great to see what the next decade and the next and the next held.

I thought the joke was a tad funny.
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard

USA
4574 Posts

Posted - 09/15/2006 :  23:47:48   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send H. Humbert a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by beskeptigal

quote:
Originally posted by marfknox

Isaac Asimov once said that he couldn't imagine any kind of heaven that would make him want to live eternally. Either one would eventually get bored or one would cease to be oneself.

Amazing such a limited thought coming from such an imaginative person.
It reminded me of the quote in Wendy 's signature:

"Millions long for immortality who don't know what to do on a rainy afternoon. -- Susan Ertz"


"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes

"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman

"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie
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HalfMooner
Dingaling

Philippines
15831 Posts

Posted - 09/15/2006 :  23:55:18   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send HalfMooner a Private Message
Einstein is quoted as having asked:

"A table, a chair, a bowl of fruit and a violin - what else does a man need to be happy?"

Throw in a blackboard, plenty of chalk, and a ready supply of pretty women, and that may have been close to sufficient for old Albert.


Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive.
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filthy
SFN Die Hard

USA
14408 Posts

Posted - 09/16/2006 :  03:26:42   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send filthy a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by HalfMooner

Filthy, do you really think you and your needs would be overlooked in any proper instance of an Atheist Heaven? There'd be a really tough biker bar right next to the rifle range in middle of the reptile-infested-blessed swamp.



Better'n better. Lots of Exalted Whiskey, Heavenly Weed, and Loose Women in the Blessed Biker Bar between Long-range Shooting Matches and bouts of Snakebite Recovery. Sounds ideal.... except... well.... Will there be anything like Pat Robertson or Jerry Falwell, or other fundie blatherskites to rail at, or scams to debunk? Would I get to bitterly argue the Theory of Evolution with angry, misguided minions of Kent Hovind and other Biblical Boneheads?

I think that, after the first century or so, my death would get rather dull without some adversary.




"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)

"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres


"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude

Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,

and Crypto-Communist!

Edited by - filthy on 09/16/2006 03:30:22
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tomk80
SFN Regular

Netherlands
1278 Posts

Posted - 09/16/2006 :  06:03:21   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit tomk80's Homepage Send tomk80 a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by filthy

quote:
Originally posted by HalfMooner

Filthy, do you really think you and your needs would be overlooked in any proper instance of an Atheist Heaven? There'd be a really tough biker bar right next to the rifle range in middle of the reptile-infested-blessed swamp.



Better'n better. Lots of Exalted Whiskey, Heavenly Weed, and Loose Women in the Blessed Biker Bar between Long-range Shooting Matches and bouts of Snakebite Recovery. Sounds ideal.... except... well.... Will there be anything like Pat Robertson or Jerry Falwell, or other fundie blatherskites to rail at, or scams to debunk? Would I get to bitterly argue the Theory of Evolution with angry, misguided minions of Kent Hovind and other Biblical Boneheads?

I think that, after the first century or so, my death would get rather dull without some adversary.






You'd have an online internet connection with christian heaven

Tom

`Contrariwise,' continued Tweedledee, `if it was so, it might be; and if it were so, it would be; but as it isn't, it ain't. That's logic.'
-Through the Looking Glass by Lewis Caroll-
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marfknox
SFN Die Hard

USA
3739 Posts

Posted - 09/16/2006 :  08:35:39   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit marfknox's Homepage  Send marfknox an AOL message Send marfknox a Private Message
Humbert wrote:
quote:
I do get irritated when people of any stripe accuse atheists of merely being believers in secret, and so I apologize if you found my criticism overly harsh, but any talk of atheists lying about their convictions raises my hackles.
Half can correct me if I'm wrong, but when I read that part of his post I thought he merely meant those flashes of paranoia that a lot of people get, especially when they are younger, less educated, tired, or inebriated. Even though I was agnostic as a kid, I occasionally had flashes of fear of hell. Always short and vague, like normal paranoia. I have the same thing happen nowadays when I watch a really scary zombie movie or the recent remake of “War of the Worlds”. After watching a scary movie I'll be paranoid for days. I'll be perfectly aware that my fears are irrational and that I'm safe, and yet those rational thoughts will not be able to totally smuther the irrational impulse of fear. If doesn't mean we are lacking in our conviction as atheists, only that we have the normal human capability for a disconnect between rational thoughts and emotional thoughts.

To Half, for what it's worth, I was raised Catholic and I haven't actually felt any fear of hell since I was a child. I started doubting pretty young, so the absurdity of that theology is pretty ingrained, plus Catholics these days (at least in America) don't emphasize the whole hell thing anymore. I imagine things would be different if I were raised fundamentalists and had my conversion to doubt at a later age.


beskeptical wrote:
quote:
Amazing such a limited thought coming from such an imaginative person. I would think living for eternity (regardless of where) would be in a place that moved through time as everything else does. It would be great to see what the next decade and the next and the next held.


I don't think it is a limited thought at all. We're talking about eternity. I don't think Asimov would have turned down living for hundreds, even thousands or tens of thousands of years. But eternity?

Quoted from here: http://www.angelfire.com/wi/mikebru/Alps.html

quote:
This idea is carried to its fullest extent in the short story "The Last Answer" (1986). An atheistic physicist dies, and is carried to what he believes to be an afterlife. He soon finds out that he is the prisoner of an all-powerful being that used a "nexus of electromagnetic forces" to imitate the workings of his brain, in essence giving the man immortality. The catch is that the man's purpose for eternity is simply to think. The universe was created for the amusement of the all-powerful being, and the man has no choice but to exist for all eternity to please the being. The last answer that the man intends to spend eternity thinking about, is how to end the existence of "god." "For what could any Entity, conscious of eternal existence, want-but an end? (P. 356)"


Of course there is the additional issue of whether time is actually linear as we experience it. Of course physics today says it is not, and is somehow part of space. I'm not sure what they means for eternity, but I guess if we're talking about supernatural things like souls, that's outside of the natural world, and in that case, what does eternity even mean?

Man, I really need to stop over

"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong

Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com

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R.Wreck
SFN Regular

USA
1191 Posts

Posted - 09/16/2006 :  09:42:15   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send R.Wreck a Private Message
Heathens!! The lot of you!! Heaven has been revealed to us!. Beer Volcanoes and a Stripper Factory! What the hell else do you want??!!!

All hail the FSM. May you be touched by His Noodly Appendage.

The foundation of morality is to . . . give up pretending to believe that for which there is no evidence, and repeating unintelligible propositions about things beyond the possibliities of knowledge.
T. H. Huxley

The Cattle Prod of Enlightened Compassion
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filthy
SFN Die Hard

USA
14408 Posts

Posted - 09/16/2006 :  10:25:50   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send filthy a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by tomk80

quote:
Originally posted by filthy

quote:
Originally posted by HalfMooner

Filthy, do you really think you and your needs would be overlooked in any proper instance of an Atheist Heaven? There'd be a really tough biker bar right next to the rifle range in middle of the reptile-infested-blessed swamp.



Better'n better. Lots of Exalted Whiskey, Heavenly Weed, and Loose Women in the Blessed Biker Bar between Long-range Shooting Matches and bouts of Snakebite Recovery. Sounds ideal.... except... well.... Will there be anything like Pat Robertson or Jerry Falwell, or other fundie blatherskites to rail at, or scams to debunk? Would I get to bitterly argue the Theory of Evolution with angry, misguided minions of Kent Hovind and other Biblical Boneheads?

I think that, after the first century or so, my death would get rather dull without some adversary.






You'd have an online internet connection with christian heaven

Sweeeet! It'd all make death worth dyin'!




"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)

"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres


"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude

Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,

and Crypto-Communist!

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tomk80
SFN Regular

Netherlands
1278 Posts

Posted - 09/16/2006 :  11:21:51   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit tomk80's Homepage Send tomk80 a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by filthy
Sweeeet! It'd all make death worth dyin'!






I was thinking that, to make it really worthwhile, both christians and atheists would have access to a room where they could smack the hell out of Phelps and his ilk for all eternity. It wouldn't make eternity fun for Phelps and his ilk, but I don't think they deserve that anyway.

Tom

`Contrariwise,' continued Tweedledee, `if it was so, it might be; and if it were so, it would be; but as it isn't, it ain't. That's logic.'
-Through the Looking Glass by Lewis Caroll-
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filthy
SFN Die Hard

USA
14408 Posts

Posted - 09/16/2006 :  12:29:43   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send filthy a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by tomk80

quote:
Originally posted by filthy
Sweeeet! It'd all make death worth dyin'!






I was thinking that, to make it really worthwhile, both christians and atheists would have access to a room where they could smack the hell out of Phelps and his ilk for all eternity. It wouldn't make eternity fun for Phelps and his ilk, but I don't think they deserve that anyway.

I was thinking of using them, among others, as running deer-type targets on the rifle range, and having the Christians over for invitational matchs. But your plan will work. Righteous Christians despise those shitheads as much as anyone else.

They might also might prove to be entertaining at belly-gun practice, and out in the swamp holding the bag during carnivorus snipe hunts. When they get time off and are not swabbing up the piss, puke, and tobacco juice from the Blessed Biker Bar floor, that is.




"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)

"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres


"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude

Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,

and Crypto-Communist!

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Orwellingly Yurz
SFN Regular

USA
529 Posts

Posted - 09/17/2006 :  20:55:39   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Orwellingly Yurz a Private Message
YO: This is the last paragraph of the Atheist Heaven story which kicked-off this thread.

"They," Sylvia shuddered, "have to spend eternity in Atheist Hell, accompanied by hordes of zealous tormentors. You see, that terrible place also has another name: Christian Heaven."

+ + + + + + + + + + + +

Orwellingly Yurz Sez: I forwarded this story onto several friends with one response offering a small, but significant edit to the copy.

The person who suggested the change is an 87 year old retired religion/philosophy professor who lives in a very red state. He does, however, hold a PhD from Yale and another graduate degree in biology; quite the scientific kind of guy. He is also an ordained Presbyterian minister. He's a great guy with a sharp intellectual mind. He's a Christian and quite proficient in the cyberworld, too.

The change he made in the copy was the usage of the word "Christian" to the word "Fundamentalist" in that last paragraph. And although I'm not a Christian, I agree with him.

Some of the nicest people I know are liberal, progressive Christians; and some of the ugliest people I know are fundamentalist, evangelical Christians. You can probably think of
some who fall into the latter category, as well.

This man of whom I speak is, in my mind, one of the most politically liberal people I know.

OY!



"The modern conservative...is engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy. That is the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness."
--John Kenneth Galbraith

If dogs run free
Then what must be,
Must be...
And that is all
--Bob Dylan

The neo-cons have gotten welfare for themselves down to a fine art.
--me

"The meek shall inherit the earth, but not the mineral rights."
--J. Paul Getty

"The great thing about Art isn't what it give us, but what we become through it."
--Oscar Wilde

"We have Art in order not to die of life."
--Albert Camus

"I cling like a miser to the freedom I lose when surrounded by an abundance of things."
--Albert Camus

"Experience is the name so many people give to their mistakes."
--Oscar Wilde
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HalfMooner
Dingaling

Philippines
15831 Posts

Posted - 09/17/2006 :  21:25:42   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send HalfMooner a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Orwellingly Yurz

YO: This is the last paragraph of the Atheist Heaven story which kicked-off this thread.

"They," Sylvia shuddered, "have to spend eternity in Atheist Hell, accompanied by hordes of zealous tormentors. You see, that terrible place also has another name: Christian Heaven."

+ + + + + + + + + + + +

Orwellingly Yurz Sez: I forwarded this story onto several friends with one response offering a small, but significant edit to the copy.

The person who suggested the change is an 87 year old retired religion/philosophy professor who lives in a very red state. He does, however, hold a PhD from Yale and another graduate degree in biology; quite the scientific kind of guy. He is also an ordained Presbyterian minister. He's a great guy with a sharp intellectual mind. He's a Christian and quite proficient in the cyberworld, too.

The change he made in the copy was the usage of the word "Christian" to the word "Fundamentalist" in that last paragraph. And although I'm not a Christian, I agree with him.

Some of the nicest people I know are liberal, progressive Christians; and some of the ugliest people I know are fundamentalist, evangelical Christians. You can probably think of
some who fall into the latter category, as well.

This man of whom I speak is, in my mind, one of the most politically liberal people I know.

OY!




OY, thank you. I agree with you and your friend in principle. I'd even considered substituting "Fundamentalist" for "Christian," but found it didn't seem to "scan" as well, muddying the punchline in some subtle manner. I suspect this may be merely the size and general awkwardness of the word.

Certainly, I would not equate tolerant Christians with their fundamentalist coreligionists. But if I can be permitted some ad hoc rationalizations, a generalized Christian Heaven ought to have enough fundamentalists in it to provide constant punishment for the unethical atheists consigned there. And certainly there would be some kind of afterlife conservation principle that would group the two Christian camps together, just as those insisting upon calling themselves agnostics would have to get used to cohabiting with atheists.

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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard

USA
4574 Posts

Posted - 09/17/2006 :  22:02:12   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send H. Humbert a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by HalfMooner
When an atheist falters and backslides into partial belief, do the angels weep?
No, but the devils rejoice.


"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes

"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman

"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie
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HalfMooner
Dingaling

Philippines
15831 Posts

Posted - 09/18/2006 :  01:47:12   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send HalfMooner a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by H. Humbert

quote:
Originally posted by HalfMooner
When an atheist falters and backslides into partial belief, do the angels weep?
No, but the devils rejoice.



As long as somebody's happy!


Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive.
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leoofno
Skeptic Friend

USA
346 Posts

Posted - 09/18/2006 :  05:26:01   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send leoofno a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Chippewa

HalfMooner - That was really good. Thanks!

There was a Twilight Zone I think where John Astin played a hipster who ends up after death in Heaven in a room with John & Mary Sixpack watching endless slides of their vacation in Ohio. He finally screams and wants to leave for "the other place" but an angle/demon guy tells him this is "the other place." Their Heaven / his Hell.



There was a Twilight Zone that spoke directly to the point that the traditional idea of Heaven may, in the end, be a very unpleasant place. A criminal is on the run from the cops and is killed. He finds himself in a place much like his normal environment, except that he gets whatever he wants. He's quite happy when a "guide" explains his new situation to him, but after a short while he gets upset that everything is so predictable. When he complains to the guide that he thought Heaven would be better, the guide says something like "Who ever said this was heaven?"

I was a kid at the time, and it was my first exposure to the idea that Heaven may not be all its cracked up to be.

Gotta love the Twilight Zone.

"If you're not terrified, you're not paying attention." Eric Alterman
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