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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
 Posted - 09/28/2006 : 14:55:21 [Permalink]
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R.Wreck said:
quote:
Maintaining a ground based transmission system is hard enough. The effects of weather and environment mean constant maintenance. How do you maintain a 6 mile long vertical cable?
Sky Wind Power talks about 240 KW and 1.5 MW turbines. Giving them the benefit of the doubt on their capacity factor calculations, which puts them in the same ballpark of a nuclear unit, then to equal the output of just one large (1200 MW) nuclear or coal fired unit would take 800 of the 1.5 MW turbines or 5000 of the 240 KW turbines. That's a lot of airborne windmills! The US installed capacity is about 1,000,000 MW. To account for even 1% of this number, you would need 6,666 of the 1.5 MW turbines. Where do we put all of these things?
There is a map for surface wind stations that clearly shows wind alone could supply more than enough power to meet our demands.
http://www.physorg.com/news4117.html
The tethered wind turbines are a way to overcome the inherent limitations of surface winds.
In a previous thread, which I can't find now, we had a long discussion about alternate energy sources which included these wind turbines.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26021 Posts |
Posted - 09/28/2006 : 15:00:04 [Permalink]
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Welcome to the SFN, rbh!quote:
Originally posted by rbh
5. It is not necessary to charge a capacitor within moments or seconds.
It's only EEstor claiming that they can charge their 17 Kwh device in 4-7 minutes. It'd be nice if that sort of charging speed could come into our homes, but as you point out, it ain't gonna happen. EEstor is obviously aiming for marketing rhetoric in making the claim in the first place, rather than "here's what an end-user can reasonably expect." |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 09/28/2006 : 15:11:52 [Permalink]
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R.Wreck: Here is the abstract link the that paper.
http://www.agu.org/pubs/crossref/2005.../2004JD005462.shtml
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9687 Posts |
Posted - 09/28/2006 : 15:38:13 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by rbh
I have read the various reactions and comments on this forum with a mixture of respect and amusement. Some have been especially thought provoking.
Some comments:
Comments are always welcome, especially when they are constructive. 
quote:
1. There will likely be no instantaneous "one shot" solution to moving personal transportation from ICE power to something more efficient and less polluting. I am thinking more along the lines of "evolution" vs "revolution."
Personally, I wasn't expecting anything less. When Mitsubishi introduced their GDI-engine their sales-man said "it's a revolution in engine technology". I pointed out that Otto-engine was a revolution, as was the Wankel-engine, this is only a petrol engine with aspects of diesel-engine added to it.
Guess what the sales-man's reply was...
"But it's a revolution in engine technology". 
The transition from ICE-engine to wide spread Electric-engine use will be economically painful.
quote:
2. While I haven't kept up with the latest numbers, I believe it is still reasonably accurate to assume, for rough calculations, that large utility type power plants are roughly twice as thermally efficient as an ICE in automotive usage. I recall using roughly 40% vs about 20% some years ago. Over the last decade, both technologies have become somewhat more efficient.
I believe those numbers should be higher, but that's beside the point.
You do raise the point that the efficiency of a centralized power plant is usually much higher than decentralized power like the ICE.
I agree, and this needs to get more attention.
There are some efficiency loss in the distribution net though, but that loss is minor in comparison to the gain.
quote:
5. It is not necessary to charge a capacitor within moments or seconds. A system where there is a stationary capacitor charging slowly when neighborhood demand is low would allow the charge to be transferred to the mobile capacitor almost instantaneously. Over a period of hours to days, enough of a charge could be accumulated that I could replensh a significant part of a car's stored energy (i.e., fill up the tank).
It's a great idea, why didn't I think of that.
For it to be useful though, that capacitor had to be at least the same size as the car you want to fill up. But it should work.
However, such a solution will confirm Dave's suspicion that the car's capacitor would have to have pretty exotic charging equipment.
The car would still have to be equipped with a trickle-charger for homes that don't have the quick-charge station.
quote:
9. Hydrogen is notoriously difficult to store. In its gaseous state, it is the smallest molecule on the periodic table and it tends to leak thru everything which makes storage and transportation problematic.
To be nit-picking... I believe Helium has a smaller diameter. But none the less, storage is a problem not yet solved. I've heard about ideas of letting hydrogen diffuse into special metal alloys, which would allow for hydrogen storage at almost liquid density but with lower pressure and higher temperature than just a canister.
quote:
10. I personally hope the people at EEStor can make a capacitor that will allow electric vehicles to be viable and not just for use on the golf course or in gated communities.
So do I.
And while I'm at it...
Welcome to Skeptic Friends Network!
(Edited some spelling) |
Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
| Edited by - Dr. Mabuse on 09/28/2006 15:44:09 |
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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 09/28/2006 : 15:50:05 [Permalink]
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Reading EEStor's patent application, it appears that they do not envision home recharging at all. In fact, their vision is that high-capacity supercapacitors would be used to transport the power (presumably by truck or train) from very centralized charging stations to local "gas stations," where the larger supercapacitors would be used to charge those in consumer vehicles.
Your point about hydrogen leakage is valid, rbh but you are wrong about hydrogen having the smallest molecules. Helium has the smallest molecules, with the greatest ability to leak (and even to pass through some solid materials). Helium gas has individual He atoms as its molecules, while hydrogen normally has two atoms, as H2. I learned this as a kid, reading Heinlein's Have Spacesuit, Will Travel.
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“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
Posted - 09/29/2006 : 04:57:28 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Dude
R.Wreck said:
quote:
Maintaining a ground based transmission system is hard enough. The effects of weather and environment mean constant maintenance. How do you maintain a 6 mile long vertical cable?
Sky Wind Power talks about 240 KW and 1.5 MW turbines. Giving them the benefit of the doubt on their capacity factor calculations, which puts them in the same ballpark of a nuclear unit, then to equal the output of just one large (1200 MW) nuclear or coal fired unit would take 800 of the 1.5 MW turbines or 5000 of the 240 KW turbines. That's a lot of airborne windmills! The US installed capacity is about 1,000,000 MW. To account for even 1% of this number, you would need 6,666 of the 1.5 MW turbines. Where do we put all of these things?
There is a map for surface wind stations that clearly shows wind alone could supply more than enough power to meet our demands.
http://www.physorg.com/news4117.html
The tethered wind turbines are a way to overcome the inherent limitations of surface winds.
In a previous thread, which I can't find now, we had a long discussion about alternate energy sources which included these wind turbines.
I think you're putting all your eggs in one basket. There are multiple ways to provide safe, clean, and renewable energy than just wind. And, with a smaller footprint than all those wind stations.
1) Geothermal - There are several places in Yellowstone National Park which are out of the way, rarely visited, and prime to set up a geothermal power producing plant.
2) Wave action - I recall seeing an article where power could be generated by having the undertow turn a turbine. Seemed like a neet idea.
Solar and Wind, of course, would also be valid sources. |
Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils
Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 09/29/2006 : 10:35:32 [Permalink]
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Val said:
quote:
I think you're putting all your eggs in one basket.
If you have ever seen me post that we should be using wind, to the exclusion of other sources, for our power needs, please link to it.
In other threads I have strongly advocated the use of a combination of wind, solar, nuclear, and other non-hydrocarbon based systems for energy production.
I just find it interesting that wind power alone could meet our power consumption, if we wanted it to.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
Posted - 09/29/2006 : 12:09:09 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Dude
Val said:
quote:
I think you're putting all your eggs in one basket.
If you have ever seen me post that we should be using wind, to the exclusion of other sources, for our power needs, please link to it.
In other threads I have strongly advocated the use of a combination of wind, solar, nuclear, and other non-hydrocarbon based systems for energy production.
I just find it interesting that wind power alone could meet our power consumption, if we wanted it to.
Cannot provide link. Text does not exist.
I was reading through and the post seemed to indicate a wind exclusionary bent. Sorry. |
Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils
Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion |
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R.Wreck
SFN Regular
USA
1191 Posts |
Posted - 10/02/2006 : 17:44:02 [Permalink]
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quote:
quote:
OI said:
Faulty construction, lack of oversight
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
...Its long and sometimes tumultuous development has been marked by runaway costs, faulty construction, mismanagement by the utilities that own it, and inadequate supervision by the Nuclear Regulatory Commission (NRC). ...
I'll take the most catastrophic form of global warming. This would probably leave much of the earth uninhabitable, but humanity would survive, and maybe learn something..... That is if what is left is not nuclear wasteland........
Only idiots think that man can overcome Mother Nature, or human nature. It only takes one moron in the mix, or one sabatour, or one airplane....... Sure, the emegency shut-offs should work, but that is a should........... And nuclear energy is far too dangerous to leave in the care of humans.........
A 23 year old artcle about a plant that was never licensed? One of several that were never completed due to cost overruns. So what?
What exactly is your objection? Economics or safety? If it is safety, then I don't think you have shown any evidence that people are incapable of managing the technology. One moron or one sabateur would have a difficult time causing core damage. One could easily shut the plant down, but that's what operators are trained to do in the event the plant parameters exceed certain bounds and an automatic shutdown hasn't yet occurred. Shutting the plant down is considered a safety measure.
One airplane? Probably not. |
The foundation of morality is to . . . give up pretending to believe that for which there is no evidence, and repeating unintelligible propositions about things beyond the possibliities of knowledge.
T. H. Huxley
The Cattle Prod of Enlightened Compassion
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Original_Intent
SFN Regular
USA
609 Posts |
Posted - 10/03/2006 : 06:11:36 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by R.Wreck
quote:
quote:
OI said:
Faulty construction, lack of oversight
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
...Its long and sometimes tumultuous development has been marked by runaway costs, faulty construction, mismanagement by the utilities that own it, and inadequate supervision by the Nuclear Regulatory Commission (NRC). ...
I'll take the most catastrophic form of global warming. This would probably leave much of the earth uninhabitable, but humanity would survive, and maybe learn something..... That is if what is left is not nuclear wasteland........
Only idiots think that man can overcome Mother Nature, or human nature. It only takes one moron in the mix, or one sabatour, or one airplane....... Sure, the emegency shut-offs should work, but that is a should........... And nuclear energy is far too dangerous to leave in the care of humans.........
A 23 year old artcle about a plant that was never licensed? One of several that were never completed due to cost overruns. So what?
What exactly is your objection? Economics or safety? If it is safety, then I don't think you have shown any evidence that people are incapable of managing the technology. One moron or one sabateur would have a difficult time causing core damage. One could easily shut the plant down, but that's what operators are trained to do in the event the plant parameters exceed certain bounds and an automatic shutdown hasn't yet occurred. Shutting the plant down is considered a safety measure.
One airplane? Probably not.
Yes, 23 years old. Has government become more or less responsible in 23 years? Screw the cost overruns, why are you concerned about that? I am more concerned about the mismanagement by the owners and the problems with inadequate oversight by the overseers.
I think we are going to have to disagree on risk/reward. I contend that our desire for profiteering, among other aspects of human nature, are incompatable with the safety demands of running something that, if things aren't done correctly, their is a mechanical failure, or an acts of sabatauge, can kill that many people.
I'll take my chances with the global warming.....
Of course, their is an alternative to slow the whole thing without resorting to nuclear power...... Maybe Americans should quit being so soft and so demanding. Turn the AC up to 80 degrees, or not run it. Turn the heat down to 60 and wear a sweater. The AC makes a huge difirence especially. Switch to flourescent lighting. Put some solar pannels up.
I bet you all can come up with a lot more.....
Peace
Joe |
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9687 Posts |
Posted - 10/03/2006 : 11:10:42 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Original_Intent
I bet you all can come up with a lot more.....
Quite driving gasoline hungry SUVs unless you really have to. |
Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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Original_Intent
SFN Regular
USA
609 Posts |
Posted - 10/03/2006 : 11:49:07 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Dr. Mabuse
quote:
Originally posted by Original_Intent
I bet you all can come up with a lot more.....
Quite driving gasoline hungry SUVs unless you really have to.
I can't believe I missed the most obvious one....
Needed.....
More....
Coffee.....
Peace
joe
Edited for worse the]n normal spelling.....
Edited agi'n for more of that there worser than normal spellin', grammer, and what-not...... |
| Edited by - Original_Intent on 10/03/2006 19:37:55 |
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9687 Posts |
Posted - 10/03/2006 : 14:52:06 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Original_Intent
Edited for worse then normal spelling.....
How about grammar?  
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Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 10/03/2006 : 16:27:55 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Dr. Mabuse
quote:
Originally posted by Original_Intent
Edited for worse then normal spelling.....
How about grammar?
Oh, be nice!
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“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9687 Posts |
Posted - 10/03/2006 : 19:49:52 [Permalink]
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If I screw up lingo-wise, I expect you to let me know...
English isn't my first language. |
Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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