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Luke T.
Skeptic Friend
140 Posts |
 Posted - 10/04/2006 : 09:14:26 [Permalink]
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Oh, and here's what Carl Dix had to say about which system was better, vis a vis Democrat plan vs. Communist plan:
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But most of the top Democrats agree with Bush on the war and the Patriot Act, and they wouldn't even put up a token fight on Alito until you raised hell and made them worry about their so-called credibility.
We have to rely on the only thing that has ever changed this world: the people, struggling for their real interests against their real enemy.
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Part of that dynamic should include debating what kind of society people need. Our Party stands for a revolution consciously made by millions, which would put the interests of the vast majority of people and not those of a handful of imperialists at the foundation of everything it stands for and everything it does. We have the understanding and strategy to do that. And we have the leadership of our Chairman, Bob Avakian, who has gone deeply into the experience of previous revolutionary and socialist societies, drawing from the achievements and analyzing the shortcomings, and who has developed an inspiring vision of a whole new society and how to get there. We invite everyone here to engage that.
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Luke T.
Skeptic Friend
140 Posts |
Posted - 10/04/2006 : 09:16:15 [Permalink]
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They hold the leadership positions. They are communists. I have shown you with their own web sites. Their own words.
Connect the dots, people.
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| Edited by - Luke T. on 10/04/2006 09:17:14 |
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Luke T.
Skeptic Friend
140 Posts |
Posted - 10/04/2006 : 09:33:23 [Permalink]
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And in case you are still under the delusion it is just "a band of conservatives" who are onto these guys, check out what a band on the Left is saying:
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I agree that the biggest impediment to the anti-war movement has been ANSWER. Their support of violent groups (i.e. FARC) has made it impossible for real peace groups to associate themselves with them. While 100,000 people will come out to the march, the groups that have historically had the strongest anti-war voices are marginalized and unseen.
Much more at: http://www.dailykos.com/story/2005/9/24/163024/106 |
| Edited by - Luke T. on 10/04/2006 09:34:15 |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13476 Posts |
Posted - 10/04/2006 : 09:33:30 [Permalink]
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quote:
Luke T:
You want to delude yourself that the anti-war movement is not being hijacked by Communists, go right ahead.
Thinking back to the anti war movement of the late 60's and early 70's, there were certainly communist groups involved in organizing protests along with less radical left wing groups and even moderates who were against the war for very good reasons. The same charges were made by the administration that all the groups were a front for the communists. The FBI got into the act to bring down the movement by targeting communists and what they called “communist sympathizers.” That was, in their view, anyone who attended a rally. And of course, that was a war where we really were fighting communists.
The protests really did help to end the war. It didn't really matter that the coalition to end the war included communists.
Did our country turn communist after the war? Nope. And it won't this time either. Plus it is legal to be a communist in this country and there is no reason why they should be excluded from any coalition to end the war and help to shed light on Bush's excesses. Politics, as they say, make strange bedfellows.
It is absolutely ludicrous to start throwing about a red scare as though it means anything. It didn't mean anything back in the 60's and it means even less now. It was the numbers of people against the war and the policies of the administrations that meant something. The administration can try to label a large protest as communist inspired, but it won't fly if enough people show up. There just aren't that many communists to matter and anyone who isn't a total pinhead knows it. Just look at Bush's numbers.
I have seen this critique of a war protest before. It's old news and, even 30 years later, oddly predictable. It is the nature of coalitions that some of the groups involved will be far more radical than others. So what? If the media does its job, they will find that most of the protesters are not commies…
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Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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Luke T.
Skeptic Friend
140 Posts |
Posted - 10/04/2006 : 09:38:44 [Permalink]
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That's all well and good, Kil. I just think some people are deluding themselves if they think just because the organizers are against Bush that they have the best interests of our country in mind. They don't.
It is my opinion these rallies are nothing more than recruiting venues for these organizations and their communist ideology.
As for politics making strange bedfellows, that is a total cop-out. I wouldn't be caught dead at a Nazi-sponsored rally against a Democratic president.
The weak-minded are allowing themselves to be led by extremists.
Start your own rally if you don't like Bush that much. Don't be a sheep and fall in line and provide numerical support to these assholes.
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| Edited by - Luke T. on 10/04/2006 09:39:47 |
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Luke T.
Skeptic Friend
140 Posts |
Posted - 10/04/2006 : 09:47:33 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Kil
The protests really did help to end the war.
No they didn't. They were more successful at damaging the Democratic Party than anything else. It was a suicide cult. Just like now.
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| Edited by - Luke T. on 10/04/2006 09:47:52 |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 10/04/2006 : 09:53:28 [Permalink]
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I agree with much of what WWP and RCP says about a lot of issues. I don't understand their support of Stalin and Mao except that they think what happened in their respective countries was misreported here. I don't doubt to a certain extent we were lied to about them. Not to the extent that I'd call myself a Maoist or Stalinist, but they're right about that word that liberals hate "imperialism."
I don't understand WWP's top-down rule and their refusal to answer questions. Most of their party has split off into another party and have their own problems.
However, these people are not baby-eaters and the things you post about wanting to make the world a better place doesn't particularly scare me either.
That being said, I'd rather be associated with them these days than the Democratic Party, but that's not much of a choice. There are other options. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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| Edited by - Gorgo on 10/04/2006 09:58:52 |
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Luke T.
Skeptic Friend
140 Posts |
Posted - 10/04/2006 : 10:39:14 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Gorgo
I agree with much of what WWP and RCP says about a lot of issues. I don't understand their support of Stalin and Mao except that they think what happened in their respective countries was misreported here.
If anything, what happened in their respective countries was underreported here. Mao and Stalin make Hitler look like a choirboy.
ETA: Do you think its Happy Days in Cuba and North Korea, too? The WWP and their ilk would have you believe so.
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| Edited by - Luke T. on 10/04/2006 10:44:20 |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 10/04/2006 : 10:49:30 [Permalink]
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Yeah, I don't really claim to know much about their position on those people again, or why they think the way that they do.
Not happy days. Like a lot of places, better without western attacks. Probably eastern attacks as well.
I will say that I'd rather be a poor Cuban than a poor citizen of that crown jewel of western capitalism, Haiti.
However, that is a tangent. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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| Edited by - Gorgo on 10/04/2006 10:51:22 |
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9687 Posts |
Posted - 10/04/2006 : 10:50:13 [Permalink]
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| You're talking about Communism as if it was a bad thing... |
Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
Posted - 10/04/2006 : 11:36:18 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Luke T.
quote:
Originally posted by Valiant Dancer
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Originally posted by beskeptigal
No comments here.
On JREF I've been replied to by a band of conservatives (the usual response with these guys) claiming the event is sponsored by some flaky communist group. And there are all sorts of web sites implying the same thing. So I took a look at the validity of the claims and the event sponsors. There are a few radicals among them but other than that the Web and JREF forum members replying in the thread appear to be spreading Swift Boat style lies about this event. It has the flavor of an organized attempt to lessen the impact of the event (not implying anyone on the JREF forum is involved other than to be part of the target audience). I'll let you know what a more detailed investigation turns up.
I noted the same "guilt by association" group with ANSWER as well. I banged heads with them for quite a while and even pointed out that they were in two seperate offices with different phone numbers contrary to their assertations to the contrary.
In some cities, ANSWER and the WWP are in the same office and use the same phone. I proved this beyond dispute a few years ago on JREF by posting the phone numbers which anyone could check for themselves. In other cities, they are in the same building with different phones.
There is no doubt that ANSWER is a WWP front.
To your mind, I don't doubt that. I also provided refutation for such nonsence on the JREF board. Mere co-location within a building does not inexorably link the groups.
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While there are some Communist members and founders, they by no means have steering control or ideological control of such a diverse group of individuals.
Unmitigated bullshit. They have total control of ANSWER. Do some serious research like I did. Make calls for yourself and ask them. They don't hide the fact they are part of the WWP.
We must have talked to different people. The research I did indicated that they were two seperate groups.
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Look at the literature available at these rallies, and ask yourself what would happen if someone unveiled a swastika at a right-wing rally. They'd be run out on a rail. But unleash a hammer and sickle at a WCW or ANSWER rally, and you are hailed.
Again, opinion.
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There are some members of JREF who are convinced that the mere taint of Communist support makes the whole group a commie plot.
Like I said. Check it out for yourself. Ask them if their goals are Communist or Democrat. Ask them which is better. The communist plan or the Democrat one.
I have checked it out and found that the two are seperate. ANSWER is not a WWP front group. |
Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils
Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion |
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beskeptigal
SFN Die Hard
USA
3834 Posts |
Posted - 10/04/2006 : 12:32:47 [Permalink]
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Thank you Luke for bumping this thread here. I was going to post some more today anyway. The WCW movement is growing rapidly with the worsening of the war on terrorism and extremists under Bush's command.
It has been very hard to post in the JREF thread because of all the poorly informed comments. How do you have an intelligent discussion if you have to start by supporting the most basic premises in your statements, which are accepted by the majority of observers, but for some reason not by a number of members on JREF that frequent the political forum?
I can address the claim that because there is one or more founding members of WCW that hold an extreme ideology the entire movement is somehow a bunch of dupes who don't know what they are supporting. I address that below. That claim is false.
I understand Marf's experience with one of the group's events and that would indeed reflect that group at that time.
What has happened since is a large number of people with very diverse political ideologies have grown increasingly frustrated with the direction of the country. And one way to voice that is to protest in large numbers. WCW had the infrastructure to organize a protest. Many many more people got involved in that infrastructure. Whatever the group's beginnings, the radicals being described by Luke and the JREF members are a tiny minority of people. If this movement were just that minority of extremists, or if they dominated the movement, there will be a pitiful turnout because the extremists being portrayed as behind everything are only a handful of people.
It's a conspiracy, Luke. The commies are duping the protesters. I haven't heard that nonsense since my Dad tried to tell me I was only protesting the Vietnam war because I was being duped by communist instigators.
For those of you wanting to compare Luke's comments to what is actually on the thread, here is a link to the last page of the thread, and my latest reply without going to the thread:
Don't take my word for it, look up your own location's events scheduled and see who is on the speaker's lists.
I don't see anything in the following that suggests what some people here who don't know much except what they read on a few out of touch web sites are claiming.
quote:
OLYMPIA, WA
OCTOBER 5th, 2006
SOLIDARITY WALKOUT AND PROTEST
NO WORK. NO SCHOOL.
Protest and Demonstrations at the OLYMPIA STATE CAPITOL – West Campus Lawn.
(Restrooms and handicap restroom on site for protest.
Security on State Capitol Grounds by Washington State Patrol. Olympia City Police for march through Downtown Olympia and in Olympia. (Thank You!) Permit for Capitol West Lawn issued by Department of General Administration – State Capitol Visitors Services. No camping, no tents, and no sleeping for all night vigil. No candles on marble of capitol building or capitol building steps. No interfering with business at capitol, and we will have more access to walk around capitol building after business hours end.)
10 am to 10 am (FULL MOON PEACE VIGIL ALL NIGHT OCT. 5th – 6th)
CAPITOL BUILDING - OLYMPIA WASHINGTON
WORLDWIDE PROTEST - WORLD CAN'T WAIT OLYMPIA WASHINGTON
OCTOBER 5TH, 2006
Starting at 10am October 5th and continuing all night at the State Capitol In Olympia.
SOLIDARITY WALKOUT AND PROTEST OCTOBER 5th, 2006;
PROTEST:
ILLEGAL WAR
TORTURE
ILLEGAL IMPRISONMENT
DOMESTIC SPYING
MEDIA MANIPULATION
WAR PROFITEERING AND ROBBING OF US TREASURY
WOMENS REPRODUCTIVE RIGHTS
IMMIGRATION ABUSE FOR POLITICAL AND ECONOMIC GAIN
LACK OF EQUALITY IN ECONOMICS AND CULTURE FOR ALL
ABUSES OF THE UNITED STATES CONSTITUTION
ABUSES OF THE BILL OF RIGHTS
ABUSES OF EXECUTIVE POWER
ABUSES OF EXECUTIVE PRIVLEDGE
THE USE OF RELIGION AS A DIVIDING ELEMENT IN POLITICS AND CULTURE.
SPEAKERS AND PERFORMERS:
WAKE UP AMERICA CONCERT – WICKLINE FAMILY AND FRIENDS
www.wicklinemusic.com
ZOMBIE MOB – POLITICAL RAP
http://blog.myspace.com/zombiemob
(Speakers, groups and entertainers please contact us! We have room for more!)
OTHER FUN STUFF:
We have 1000 orange rain ponchos with IMPEACH and BUSH OUT NOW - to give away FREE to first 1000 people! We will be attempting the world record for a Protest-Congo-Line-Dance!!
We will be playing TYVEK TWISTER on 16 foot tall and 10 foot wide letters that spell IMPEACH NOW! The letters will "magically" appear out of the crowd for aerial surveillance satellites! Come and help!
Olympia World Can't Wait
PO Box 54
Brinnon WA 98320
Email: [email]worldwideprotest@yahoo.com[/email]
phone: 206 257 8219
PROTEST AT STATE CAPITOL IN OLYMPIA OCTOBER 5TH – 6TH. 10am to 10am
WEAR GREEN FOR WCW DRIVE OUT THE BUSH REGIME
Wear red to stand out against the war.
Wear orange in support of our bill of rights and our constitution.
Wear yellow to stand out for human and civil rights.
Create A Protest October 5th, 2006!
Blog, email, publish, post, advertise, and promote this protest!
(an: In The Name of Love production)
[email]worldwideprotest@yahoo.com[/email]
Seattle, WA
2006-10-05
All Day and into the Night
Univeristy of Washington, Capitol Hill, Downtown Seattle
We'll grow in numbers and spirit throughout the day and call on all of Seattle to JOIN US! THE WORLD CAN'T WAIT! DRIVE OUT THE BUSH REGIME!
Morning--School Walk Outs!
10:00 am--College and High School students from all schools in and around Seattle gather at Red Square on the University of Washington Campus followed by march to Capitol Hill.
12:00 Noon--Gather at Cal Anderson Park, (on 11th Ave between E Denny and E Pine in Capitol Hill) followed by
1:00 pm--Rally with speakers and music
3:00 pm--March into downtown Seattle to the Federal Building (2nd & Marion)
4:00 pm--Rally and SIT-IN AT THE FEDERAL BUILDING--As the night unfolds, people will talk, debate, create music and art, and work together on visions and plans for driving out the Bush Regime and reversing the whole direction it has been taking the country and the world.
SPEAKERS & MUSIC INCLUDE:
Sara Rich - Sara Rich is the mother of Suzanne Swift, an Iraq combat vet who was sexually harassed and abused while deployed in Iraq by her superior officers. She will be speaking about sexual abuse in the military, the Iraq War and driving out the Bush regime.
David R. Montgomery - David R. Montgomery is a professor at the University of Washington in Earth and Space Sciences. He studies the evolution of topography and the influence of geomorphological processes on ecological systems and human societies. He will be speaking on the suppression of science by the Bush administration, with a focus on salmon studies and global warming.
Judith Shattuck - Judith Shattuck is the Washington State Coordinator of Progressive Democrats of America
Roberto Maestas - Roberto Maestas is the Executive Director of El Centro de la Raza
Sasha Cousineau - Sasha Cousineau is the Volunteer Coordinator of NARAL Pro-Choice Washington
Maria Luisa Sanchez Fuentes - Executive Director of GIRE (Information Group on Reproductive Choice) in Mexico. GIRE is working to decriminalize abortion and she will speak to how the Bush administration's policies negatively affect that work in Mexico.
Linda Warren - Linda Warren is a Professor of Philosophy at Shoreline Community College and a founding member of Social Change Caravan. She recently returned from a caravan of former residents and hurricane survi |
| Edited by - beskeptigal on 10/04/2006 12:34:04 |
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beskeptigal
SFN Die Hard
USA
3834 Posts |
Posted - 10/04/2006 : 12:36:07 [Permalink]
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| Thanks for chiming in Val. Sorry I hadn't seen all your posts yet on JREF. That thread is overwhelming. Just look at the replies there to my post above. |
| Edited by - beskeptigal on 10/04/2006 12:44:48 |
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beskeptigal
SFN Die Hard
USA
3834 Posts |
Posted - 10/04/2006 : 12:44:24 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Luke T.
beskeptigal, some of those people on JREF you are lumping together as "a band of conservatives" are actually left-wingers who are quite opposed to Bush. Your ignorance of their political leanings is uproariously laughable.
I have replied to what they posted. Regardless of anyone's position on Bush, the replies in the thread mis-characterize the make up of tomorrow's events and participants.
quote:
And don't just take the word of other media sources. Ask the WCW people themselves about their political origins...
Read their site. It is immediately obvious that while they claim to be composed of people from all walks of life, they are all about the communist agenda...
If you want to be another Democratic useful idiot for a bunch of maoists, that's your business. Just don't delude yourself into believing this is some kind of "mainstream" movement just because they don't like Bush.
Attending their protests is as stupid as attending a rally sponsored by the American Nazi Party just because they are opposed to something you are opposed to.
I will bet you a year's supply of donuts that the praises of Cuba and North Korea will be sung at this rally.
"Their protests"? I see a protest against Bush and a diverse group of people involved.
What is with this 1950s attitude toward a small group of people with outdated ideas? Do you fear they are going to make converts at the protest? That's laughable. |
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beskeptigal
SFN Die Hard
USA
3834 Posts |
Posted - 10/04/2006 : 12:55:37 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Kil
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Thinking back to the anti war movement of the late 60's and early 70's, there were certainly communist groups involved in organizing protests along with less radical left wing groups and even moderates who were against the war for very good reasons. The same charges were made by the administration that all the groups were a front for the communists. ....
The response on JREF to the protest so reminds me of the same nonsense said back then. My Dad naively believed the "communists" were duping college kids into protesting the war, as if we were so gullible and unable to think for ourselves.
And when I later marched to have the US leave El Salvador, there were always a handful of Socialists Workers Party members who would show up with stupid signs like "Free the Chinese gang of 4". It frustrated most marchers because that wasn't why we were there, we didn't support their cause, and they detracted from our cause. But, they were tolerated, ignored, and grossly outnumbered.
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| Edited by - beskeptigal on 10/04/2006 12:56:51 |
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