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jordoskeptic
New Member
6 Posts |
 Posted - 09/27/2006 : 17:25:31 [Permalink]
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certainly wouldn't want to take on any common sense notions.
two groups of breast cancer patients
one group is told nothing more about mirrors than what is said by today's cancer doctors.
the other group is sequestered from mirrors
compare the results of the two groups during recovery.
i know. mirrors don't cause breast cancer because mirrors don't cause harm. |
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pleco
SFN Addict
USA
2998 Posts |
Posted - 09/27/2006 : 17:34:09 [Permalink]
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| Am I supposed to be laughing? |
by Filthy
The neo-con methane machine will soon be running at full fart. |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 09/27/2006 : 17:34:49 [Permalink]
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First off, you can infer a few dozen things about mirrors from our basic understanding of physics and materials science.
From that base of knowledge you can conclude that nothing about a mirror is more harmfull than the source light that it reflects, in fact you can conclude that the light reflected from mirrors is less harmfull than the source light based on the phisical laws that govern energy over distance, and the fact that mirrors do not reflect all of the light that hits them.
Unless you have some reasonable hypothesis that predicts an increase harm from mirrors over the source light, with an explanation of the mechanism of this increased harm, then there is no reason to waste time with ridiculous expiriments.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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JohnOAS
SFN Regular
Australia
800 Posts |
Posted - 09/27/2006 : 17:52:15 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by jordoskeptic
certainly wouldn't want to take on any common sense notions.
two groups of breast cancer patients
one group is told nothing more about mirrors than what is said by today's cancer doctors.
the other group is sequestered from mirrors
compare the results of the two groups during recovery.
i know. mirrors don't cause breast cancer because mirrors don't cause harm.
There are treatments for breast cancer with non-zero success rates higher than for non-treatment. Are you suggesting we ask breast cancer sufferers to forego treatments with known efficacy in order to test a proposal with no (to date) supporting evidence?
If you propose to do the tests in conjunction with conventional treatments, it's going to necessitate quite an untangling the psychological effects of people being asked to avoid mirrors by their doctors.
Which study should we do first? The "do mirrors cause cancer" study, or the "does being rained on cause cancer" study, or perhaps the "does listening to violin solos cause cancer" study. I see a pretty similar amount of evidence for each premise.
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John's just this guy, you know. |
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9687 Posts |
Posted - 09/27/2006 : 17:54:24 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by jordoskeptic
So based on the responses the following must be the case:
1. Like clean, temperate water or oxygen, a mirror poses no risk to humans whatsoever. Unlike water and oxygen, a mirror cannot be contaminated and cause any harm. Moreover, there aren't any conditions or circumstances in which mirrors could cause harm (also unlike ingesting water or oxygen).
That's a misrepresentation of the views opposing yours.
We do acknowledge that harm can come from viewing a mirror, but only when it is reflecting something that already is harmful. The mirror in itself is harmless.
quote:
So based on the responses the following must be the case:
...
2. The act of avoiding mirrors is not the same as a Diabetic who avoids certain food. It's a sign of neurosis.
Yes, as long as we're talking about a general avoidance of mirrors, not because of what the mirror is reflecting.
quote:
So based on the responses the following must be the case:
...
3. Only a mirror can be used in a car, not a video camera, but there would be no difference in the affect on the driver because mirrors cause no harm.
That is also a gross misrepresentation.
There is no reason why a video camera cannot be used instead of a rear mirror. In fact, there are known instances of such use of camera. However, cameras are not as flexible as a mirror, especially since the camera has a significant image degradation that is non-existant in normal car mirrors.
quote:
I'll shut up now. I come up with better arguments against my own premise--should I post those to assist anyone who disagrees?
That will not be necessary if you don't misrepresent/misinterpret the answers you get here.
quote:
So an environmental factor shouldn't be considered when diagnosing a breast cancer patient?
Why would the environment matter?
If a person has brest cancer or not cannot be determined by examining her environment, it can only be determined by examining the suspected tissue. Or possibly checking the blood for genetic markers (which would be a direct cause of the cancer in the first place anyway).
quote:
Why doesn't someone post a list of studies showing how safe the things are? But there aren't any of those either. This is called taking something for granted. It's blind faith.
What was taken for granted, and by blind faith, was stuff like "if you're travelling faster than 30km/h by train you will speed away from you soul: You'll loose your soul.
The same with travelling into a tunnel.
But the people did it, and did not come to harm.
Billions of people have looked into mirrors, practically almost every day of their life without coming to harm. You can consider that a gigantic experiment. Only to people with speciffic neurosis can I imagine mirrors harmful.
The fictional story "The Mirror of Her Dreams" by Donaldson I mentioned earier wasn't just a jest.
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I'll take my chances with a reflection-free lifestyle.
That is of course up to you. However, I'd like you to consider the possibility that you have an irrational relation to mirrors.
If you can't quantify and present in more detail the nature of the dangers presented by mirrors, then I suggest that the percieved danger is not real.
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Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 09/27/2006 : 18:08:28 [Permalink]
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I still wonder if we're not being spoofed....
On the other hand, I have heard of people with a fear of mirrors. Apparently, it was pretty debilitating. I sincerely hope, jordoskeptic, that you are spoofing, and not one of these. In any event, the damage was psycological rather than physical, and there is no way to tell if it was really caused mirrors or something else associated with them.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist! 
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JohnOAS
SFN Regular
Australia
800 Posts |
Posted - 09/27/2006 : 18:09:30 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by jordoskeptic
So based on the responses the following must be the case:
1. Like clean, temperate water or oxygen, a mirror poses no risk to humans whatsoever. Unlike water and oxygen, a mirror cannot be contaminated and cause any harm. Moreover, there aren't any conditions or circumstances in which mirrors could cause harm (also unlike ingesting water or oxygen).
2. The act of avoiding mirrors is not the same as a Diabetic who avoids certain food. It's a sign of neurosis.
I'm still not %100 sure, are you talking explicitly about physical/physiological harm, or also including psychological effects?
quote:
Originally posted by jordoskeptic
3. Only a mirror can be used in a car, not a video camera, but there would be no difference in the affect on the driver because mirrors cause no harm.
Would the amount light coming from the display device be more or less than the amount of light coming from the mirror it replaces? If less, how do you intend to correct for the effect of the driver having to look at the display for longer because of the reduced brightness/contrast. What about the increased cancer risk due to all the electrical current and associated electromagnetic fields required to drive the camera and display device?
quote:
Originally posted by jordoskeptic
So an environmental factor shouldn't be considered when diagnosing a breast cancer patient?
I believe they are considered. Do you have evidence that this is not the case?
quote:
Originally posted by jordoskeptic
Is there a list of other things which absolutely should not be studied? I'd like to see it.
If there's a bottomless budget of funds for sponsoring studies with no scientific basis I'd like to get my hands on some of it. Personally, I think I'll start with:
"Does giving John $1000 000 to spend anyway he chooses and 6 months off work to spend with family and friends increase or decrease his level of wellbeing?"
quote:
Originally posted by jordoskeptic
I'll take my chances with a reflection-free lifestyle.
You know you're at least doubling you're chance of being a victim of vampirism.
Now where did I put my copy of that paper, "The correlation of murder victims with twin puncture wounds on the neck and the practice of a reflection-free lifestyle." ?
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John's just this guy, you know. |
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard
USA
4574 Posts |
Posted - 09/27/2006 : 18:13:30 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by jordoskeptic
certainly wouldn't want to take on any common sense notions.
two groups of breast cancer patients
one group is told nothing more about mirrors than what is said by today's cancer doctors.
the other group is sequestered from mirrors
compare the results of the two groups during recovery.
i know. mirrors don't cause breast cancer because mirrors don't cause harm.
What reason would we have to run this study? First you need to propose a hypothesis as to why mirrors might impede breast cancer recovery. Are you saying mirrors cause psychological harm? Physical harm? Do mirrors give off some kind of "bad energy" vibrations or something? What is it exactly you think is happening?
If you won't say, then there's no reason to run the study since there isn't even a hypothesis to be tested!
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"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman
"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie |
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Cuneiformist
The Imperfectionist
USA
4955 Posts |
Posted - 09/27/2006 : 18:17:15 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by jordoskeptic
I'll take my chances with a reflection-free lifestyle.
Are you serious? Get help, man. Get help.
Oh-- and good luck with the video camera thing for the car. Because, you know, LCD screens don't, uh, emit light or anything. |
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard
USA
4574 Posts |
Posted - 09/27/2006 : 18:20:49 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Dr. Mabuse
There is no reason why a video camera cannot be used instead of a rear mirror. In fact, there are known instances of such use of camera. However, cameras are not as flexible as a mirror, especially since the camera has a significant image degradation that is non-existant in normal car mirrors.
Also, mirrors have one distinct advantage over cameras when used in cars which are in mass production. Mirrors are cheap.
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"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman
"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie |
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R.Wreck
SFN Regular
USA
1191 Posts |
Posted - 09/27/2006 : 18:42:02 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by jordoskeptic:
So an environmental factor shouldn't be considered when diagnosing a breast cancer patient?
100% of breast cancer victims eat food. Therefore food casuses breast cancer. You should stop eating jordo. Better safe than sorry. |
The foundation of morality is to . . . give up pretending to believe that for which there is no evidence, and repeating unintelligible propositions about things beyond the possibliities of knowledge.
T. H. Huxley
The Cattle Prod of Enlightened Compassion
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Randy
SFN Regular
USA
1990 Posts |
Posted - 09/27/2006 : 18:54:07 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Cuneiformist
quote:
Originally posted by jordoskeptic
I'll take my chances with a reflection-free lifestyle.
Are you serious? Get help, man. Get help.
Checking the gret big bag of phobias list, http://phobialist.com/ , one can find 'Catoptrophobia and Eisoptrophobia' -- fear of mirrors.
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"We are all connected; to each other biologically, to the earth chemically, to the rest of the universe atomically."
"So you're made of detritus [from exploded stars]. Get over it. Or better yet, celebrate it. After all, what nobler thought can one cherish than that the universe lives within us all?"
-Neil DeGrasse Tyson |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26020 Posts |
Posted - 09/27/2006 : 19:53:04 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by jordoskeptic
I like this quotation the best
"Why not question something for a change?"
This is coming from a guy who's asking to see proof from a premise.
No, I was asking for evidence that your premise is true. If you have none - and I don't think you do - then I have no reason to think it is true. Why should anyone spend time trying to refute a premise which has a low probability of being true?quote:
1. Like clean, temperate water or oxygen, a mirror poses no risk to humans whatsoever.
Aren't you naive. Were I to rush to judgement as you have, I would have to assume that you've never heard of "drowning" and have no clue that pure oxygen is pretty damn dangerous.quote:
Unlike water and oxygen, a mirror cannot be contaminated and cause any harm.
E coli and staph can live on mirrors for a lot longer than you'd think.quote:
Moreover, there aren't any conditions or circumstances in which mirrors could cause harm (also unlike ingesting water or oxygen).
Trying breaking one, and see how careful you are when cleaning up.
When you can't even comprehend the arguments of your critics, and instead resort to the above sort of strawmen, it's clear that you don't really know what a "skeptic" is. Would you like to? |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Hawks
SFN Regular
Canada
1383 Posts |
Posted - 09/27/2006 : 19:54:51 [Permalink]
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| I agree with jordoskeptic. Mirrors can be dangerous. Just imagine if you were a vampire - mirrors would expose you for who you are. |
METHINKS IT IS LIKE A WEASEL
It's a small, off-duty czechoslovakian traffic warden! |
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard
USA
4574 Posts |
Posted - 09/27/2006 : 21:13:23 [Permalink]
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At least jordo's fears seem rooted in a deep history.
quote:
This association of mirrors with death is common in folklore, and stems from the belief that the soul could become trapped in the mirror, causing death. For this reason, young children were often not allowed to look in a mirror until they were at least a year old. Mirrors were covered during sleep or illness so that the soul, in its wanderings, would not become trapped and unable to return to the body. After a death in the family, mirrors were also covered or turned to the wall to prevent the soul of the newly departed from becoming caught in the mirror, delaying its journey to the afterlife. In Bulgaria, this practice warded off more sinister intentions -- that the soul of the dead person, lingering about its former home until the burial of its body, would carry off the soul of a living person whose reflection appeared in a mirror. Mirrors appear commonly as grave goods in Serbo-Croatia, particularly for those who die prematurely. These are the most "dangerous" dead, apt to roam from their graves and harry the living. Mirrors are believed to trap the soul of the deceased at the gravesite where it belongs.
The belief that the soul could be caught and trapped in a mirror appears in many other ways. The peoples of northern India considered it dangerous to look into a mirror that belonged to someone else. It was especially so to look into the mirrors of a house you were visiting: when you left, you would leave part of your soul behind trapped in the mirrors, which could then be manipulated by your host to his advantage. In 18th century India, women were seen to wave mirrors before the image of death goddess Kali, apparently to appease her need for human sacrifice with the reflection of a person rather than the sacrifice of a real human being.
The article goes on to list the myths associated with that most ancient of reflective surfaces--water. It's an interesting read.
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"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman
"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie |
| Edited by - H. Humbert on 09/27/2006 21:14:27 |
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