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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
 Posted - 09/27/2006 : 02:56:02 [Permalink]
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quote:
But again, this isn't a place to rehash things you disagree with (with no evidence to back you up) unless you have the last word.
Gorgo, if you think anyone should let you accuse them of endorsing murder without retorting then you have serious issues. It has nothing about "getting in the last word," but about correcting the errors in your emotionally-charged rhetoric.
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I would expect them to attempt to back up their position with facts, which you have not. But at least you have the last word. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 09/27/2006 : 03:37:47 [Permalink]
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Gorgo said:
quote:
I have repeatedly posted sources which refute what you say, yet you never support your statement that international law does not exist.
You have never posted any part of any treaty that the US is signatory to that prohibits one country from attacking another. Because no such thing exists.
You are the one making the claim, so the burden of evidence rests with you. I do not have to show that no such law exists, but you DO have to show that such a law does exist, and you have repeatedly failed to do so.
And yes, the UN charter is a US treaty. So what? To my knowledge no part of that charter prohibits military action vs anyone else. The closest it comes is one line in article two which calls for UN members to settle international disputes peacefully. There is certainly no clear statement in the UN charter that unmistakeably prohibits its members from entering into armed conflict.
quote:
The U.N. Charter (which you can look up yourself) lays out the rules by which one country can attack another.
No, it doesn't.
http://www.un.org/aboutun/charter/
It lays out rules by which the UN may take action against a country, it says nothing about anyone else taking military action against other countries.
quote:
Your insulting tone doesn't help.
pot. kettle.
Get over yourself and find some actual evidence to support your claim that any war is illegal by US and international law.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 09/27/2006 : 03:52:52 [Permalink]
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quote:
Get over yourself and find some actual evidence to support your claim that any war is illegal by US and international law.
Any war is illegal? Where do you get this shit? Who said that any war is illegal?
Where do you get this idea that international law does not exist? |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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| Edited by - Gorgo on 09/27/2006 03:58:09 |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 09/27/2006 : 04:01:07 [Permalink]
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Gorgo said:
quote:
Where do you get this idea that international law does not exist?
Now you are just being an asshole.
What I said, and you damn well know it, is that there is no "international law" (i.e. US treaty) that prohibits the US from engaging in military actions.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 09/27/2006 : 04:04:06 [Permalink]
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Gorgo said:
quote:
Any war is illegal? Where do you get this shit? Who said that any war is illegal?
That isn't your thesis? You aren't blathering on about how the Iraq war is illegal, about how Clinton throwing bombs at al qaeda is illegal, about how US troops are criminals? You keep saying that it is illegal for the US to attack anyone.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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beskeptigal
SFN Die Hard
USA
3834 Posts |
Posted - 09/27/2006 : 04:54:33 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Gorgo
quote:
Olbermann was saying that Bush and the people who got him elected think that what you describe as indiscriminate bombings are a legitimate attempt to reduce international terrorism, yet they refuse to give Clinton credit for following their own game plan.
They accused him of "wagging the dog" and we haven't seen any evidence from Olbermann that these are really legitimate attempts to end terrorism, and not either simply murderous attacks for murder's sake or "wagging the dog." I take that and his indignation to mean that he thinks that we need no further explanation, that these ilegal attacks are really legitimate attempts to end terrorism that should be applauded. I don't know whether or not he was "wagging the dog." That would require some proof that they were in fact legitimate attempts to end terrorism.
We're living under a criminal administration, much like the criminal administrations that existed before this one. That's the point that's missed.
This assumes you know all the same things Olbermann knows. Frankly, I read Richard Clarke's book when it was first published. I was very surprised at how much was going on behind the scenes about Bin Laden and terrorism. From Clarke's point of view which he was in a position to know, Clinton never let Monica issues get in the way of his decisions. Clarke was afraid Clinton would not order actions taken because of all the dog wag accusations. But Clinton made those decisions anyway.
I see no evidence your version is right, Gorgo, and Clarke's was wrong. In fact, I heard from Clinton, confirmation of what I read in Clarke's book. The actions were attempts to stop Bin Laden who had been behind a number of attacks. Why would Clinton need a wag the dog war when ordering the bombing only brought out the accusations more?
edited to fix quote, don't know how I missed that last nite |
| Edited by - beskeptigal on 09/27/2006 10:02:39 |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 09/27/2006 : 05:06:48 [Permalink]
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I didn't say they were attempts to wag the dog. I said Olbermann added nothing but self-righteousness to the matter. He said nothing to prove anything about wagging the dog or otherwise, and applauded what Clinton did.
Clinton's policy was run by many of the same people that ran the policy in the Bush administration and previous administrations. Clinton is a very smart man, and seemingly a very kind, generous man, and Clinton added his own touches, some good, some not so good, but he had very little to do with the idea that the U.S. is above the standards that it sets for its enemies and had very little to do with the ideas presented to him from which he chose, or let others choose. Whether or not he's a dupe is immaterial. His actions against Iraq, Yugoslavia, Sudan and Afghanistan were as illegal and, more importantly, stupid, as those of GW. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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| Edited by - Gorgo on 09/27/2006 05:09:24 |
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
Posted - 09/27/2006 : 05:42:58 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Dude
Gorgo said:
quote:
Where do you get this idea that international law does not exist?
Now you are just being an asshole.
What I said, and you damn well know it, is that there is no "international law" (i.e. US treaty) that prohibits the US from engaging in military actions.
Dude, that was out of line.
Even though Gorgo has repeatedly spun responses to him, calling him an asshole is over the line.
His reasoning tactics piss me off too. No reason to insult him. It'll just continue to be dredged up by him in later conversations as a way to dismiss any arguments you have.
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Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils
Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 09/27/2006 : 05:44:56 [Permalink]
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quote:
Now you are just being an asshole.
You're over the line.
quote:
What I said, and you damn well know it, is that there is no "international law" (i.e. US treaty) that prohibits the US from engaging in military actions.
Which means there is no international law.
I have not said that all war is against international law.
Read about article 51 and Nuremburg. Look at the standards that the U.S. holds for other countries, except Israel, and a couple of others, and doesn't hold for itself. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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| Edited by - Gorgo on 09/27/2006 05:45:53 |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 09/27/2006 : 05:52:50 [Permalink]
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quote:
Dude, that was out of line.
Even though Gorgo has repeatedly spun responses to him, calling him an asshole is over the line.
His reasoning tactics piss me off too. No reason to insult him. It'll just continue to be dredged up by him in later conversations as a way to dismiss any arguments you have.
I appreciate that somewhat backhanded defense.
However, your need to be pissed off has nothing to do with anyone else other than your need to be pissed off, and I would have no need to dredge up stupid insults if people understood how to apologize for those stupid insults. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
Posted - 09/27/2006 : 06:27:30 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Gorgo
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">
Dude, that was out of line.
Even though Gorgo has repeatedly spun responses to him, calling him an asshole is over the line.
His reasoning tactics piss me off too. No reason to insult him. It'll just continue to be dredged up by him in later conversations as a way to dismiss any arguments you have.
I appreciate that somewhat backhanded defense.
However, your need to be pissed off has nothing to do with anyone else other than your need to be pissed off, and I would have no need to dredge up stupid insults if people understood how to apologize for those stupid insults.
[/quote]
I fail to see the reason for a need to be pissed off.
I do not need to be pissed off.
I am acknowledging your common argumentation tactics which I find frustrating. In my current state of mind, it pisses me off.
But this conversation isn't about me. And it's not about you. Or Dude.
This conversation is supposed to be about Olbermann and Clinton, and this particular tangetal conversation was yet again about international law and what it means in relation to the conduct of the executive branch of the US government.
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Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils
Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 09/27/2006 : 06:33:59 [Permalink]
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| Olbermann faults Wallace for being some kind of pawn of the right wing, but no one seems to notice that Wallace at least asked a legitimate question and that there is no reason to think that O is anything more than a pawn for the left side of the right wing, and simply makes a sideshow of the fact that politicians smear one another, while ignoring their crimes. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13476 Posts |
Posted - 09/27/2006 : 08:04:30 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Gorgo
Olbermann faults Wallace for being some kind of pawn of the right wing, but no one seems to notice that Wallace at least asked a legitimate question and that there is no reason to think that O is anything more than a pawn for the left side of the right wing, and simply makes a sideshow of the fact that politicians smear one another, while ignoring their crimes.
You know Gorgo, I have to wonder if you have a pragmatic bone in your body? The media has given Bush a pass on almost every stupid and illegal thing he has done, and you have a problem with one of the few people in the media forcefully calling out the Bush hypocrisy and stupidity.
You did get that the very illegal acts that you rail against are the very things the Bush administration wallows in while saying that Clinton didn't do enough of. Even if you are correct that they are illegal acts, can you not see the difference in the behavior of these two administrations? Can you not see that what Clinton did was at least measured (even if illegal in your eyes) compared to what Bush is doing?
I'm not saying that you should forget your ideals and give Clinton a pass. But hey, Clinton was a piker when compared to the crimes of the current administration. Do you really feel that a person who steals an apple is as bad as a person who steals the whole apple cart? Sure, they are both illegal acts, but some perspective in needed to sort out the difference between those two acts.
Olbermann was pointing out the hypocrisy of the Bush administration and the reporting style of Fox news. And that needs to be done, over and over again until the American people get it. Illegal acts are a whole other issue. I think it would be a mistake to assume that Olbermann condones those things simply because he has attacked the Bush administration and Fox news for what they are. Hypocrites. The Fox spin on the Clinton interview was dishonest to an extreme. And that too needs to be pointed out loudly and strongly and often if we are to make any gains at bringing the current administration into a true perspective.
We all know how you feel about Clinton. What I am wondering is if you can not actually see the difference between what he did and what Bush has done and continues to do?
Try looking at this another way. That was then and this is now. And what we have now is the most destructive administration to all of the principles that some of us think America is about…
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Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 09/27/2006 : 08:12:23 [Permalink]
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The media gives every president a pass on their crimes. They spin their wheels and yours with inconsequential bullshit like this and then get all self-righteous about whatever their crusade of the day is, as though it matters. Is Bush worse than Clinton? Probably in some areas. Again, at least Bush isn't afraid to say that he doesn't care about things like international law. You know what you have with Bush.
Were Clinton's acts measured? I don't see how. Which acts? His desire to destroy Iraqi civilization? His desire to destroy Yugoslavian civilization? Haitian civilization? His lobbing of Cruise missiles to see where they'd land?
Who murdered more? We'll never know. Neither's crimes were investigated by Olbermann. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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| Edited by - Gorgo on 09/27/2006 08:17:20 |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13476 Posts |
Posted - 09/27/2006 : 09:52:45 [Permalink]
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quote:
Gorgo:
Is Bush worse than Clinton? Probably in some areas.
Some areas? Bush is engaged in a full frontal attack on our democracy. He condones torture (in secret places no less). He ignores the right to a fair trial, or even a trial at all. He has us in a full-scale war with a fully made up justification for it. He is attempting to set up a theocracy here. He has ignored any attempt at diplomacy on grave matters all over the world and especially the Middle East and North Korea. He is anti science. He has scoffed at our constitution. He has put in the UN an ambassador who is anti the UN. He has stacked the Supreme Court putting privacy issues in jeopardy (among other things).
He feels that decent is treason, and Gorgo, if he could find a way he would lock your ass up. “Some areas?” You have to be kidding…
quote:
Again, at least Bush isn't afraid to say that he doesn't care about things like international law. You know what you have with Bush.
So what? And this is somehow a good thing?
Again, you lack perspective. And that is that I guess…
Edited to add:
quote:
Gorgo:
The media gives every president a pass on their crimes.
The media brought down Nixon. The media dogged Clinton for eight years. You are just wrong about that.
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Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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