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Mespo_man
Skeptic Friend
USA
312 Posts |
 Posted - 01/08/2002 : 07:58:09 [Permalink]
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I can only respond as a parent, not an educator. But two major factors come to mind when addressing the question of fixing our anemic public education system.
One is the dictum that one teacher CAN make a difference. Actually, it's two. I've seen it in action. Ironically, the high school my daughter attends has an outstanding music program. Why ironic? Because so often at budget crunch time, they're the first to go. Anyway, the school is blessed with a band director who recently formed a jazz emsemble that has people rocking in the aisles. Add to that a choir director who has put together a New York tribute with Broadway show tunes and dance routines that plays to standing ovations.
What's the point? It is positively infectious. The kids are excited. They see the fruits of hard work, discipline and patience. It carries over to the classroom and gets the other teachers going. It feeds on itself. Someone sold these students the idea that their high school years can be the time of their lives. They believe it. Disciplinary problems are minor and the dropout rate is almost non-existent.
Which brings me to the second major factor. The parents are there. In support. In spirit. In PERSON. At concerts. At sports. At PTA and parent / teacher meetings for chrissake. You can throw all the money you want at public schools from the Fed and state level, but without a grass roots organization of parents and teachers working together, it doesn't mean squat.
There is one other factor that may be hard to quantify. In the state of Ohio, you are allowed to enroll your child in any adjacent school district without incurring addtional tuition expenses. Schools with good programs attract parents from other areas. When parents "jump ship" to go to another school district, it does not go unnoticed by the local board. Their challange then becomes one of addressing the issues that are driving parents away. Call it negative reinforcement, but it does play a part in the overall attempts by a district to get their act together.
(:raig |
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Badger
Skeptic Friend
Canada
257 Posts |
Posted - 01/08/2002 : 09:34:59 [Permalink]
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Trish, I figured you meant PhDreamer and Comradebillyboy had extra qualifications in this area.
So your daughter is in grade 6, and going into 7, then. Is she changing schools for Grade 7? In Canada, kids go from elementary school (gr 1-6) to junior high school (7-9) then high school (10-12)usually 3 different schools. I'll state the obvious and recommend that you search for the best junior high in your vicinity. In Alberta we have "departmental exams" in grades 6, 9, and 12, and performance by school can be gleaned from this information. Its made public, so is easily accessible. If you have such a ranking system where you are, use it. It'll pay dividends.
I know this suggestion could cause some inconvenience. Your daughter may have to be bussed to that school, or have to take a cab, or you might have to drive her. We actually moved to the district of the school, but I don't know if that's an option for you. If it is, getting a jump on things this early allows you to find the right place in that neighbourhood, AND get used to the idea of moving, thereby reducing the stress and impact of the move. This might sound like a radical option, but this is your kids future you're dealing with. It could be worth it.
Better schools generally occurr in more upscale neighbourhoods because of tax base and parental expectations, and there are associated benefits to a better neighbourhood. Community leagues usually have better programs, crime is usually lower. Of course this is just a generalization.
Just because we're hypnotized, that don't mean we can't dance. - Tonio K. |
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Lisa
SFN Regular
USA
1223 Posts |
Posted - 01/08/2002 : 10:00:05 [Permalink]
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Mespo brought up a good point, and one that was a major frustration factor in my Dad's teaching career. Most of the time he couldn't get the parents of his less successful students interested. Even if he could track them down for a conference, the effort was usually a waste of time. He could outline a student's problem, suggest avenues of action, and then hit a brick wall. The response was often along the lines of: "you're the teacher, not me, it's your problem".
The parents of his successful students were involved with their children. Not only were they there for every game or concert, they truly cared about the kid's grades. If grades started to slip, they were eager for a roadmap to get the child back on track.
Even if the parent doesn't have the time for the conferences, games, or concerts, what goes on in the home can be as important as the classroom. Are the child's successes praised? Is interest shown in progress? Is help given (or found) if the student encounters difficulties?
Lisa
If you're not living on the edge, you're taking up too much room. |
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Badger
Skeptic Friend
Canada
257 Posts |
Posted - 01/08/2002 : 11:12:11 [Permalink]
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"you're the teacher, not me, it's your problem".
Lisa, I hope your dad responded to the effect that he only had the child in his class for a year, meanwhile the parents have the child for life. Therefore, they can have much more effect on their child than any teacher, no matter how wonderful.
I know what you're saying though.
Just because we're hypnotized, that don't mean we can't dance. - Tonio K. |
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Trish
SFN Addict
USA
2102 Posts |
Posted - 01/08/2002 : 14:33:42 [Permalink]
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quote:
Trish, I figured you meant PhDreamer and Comradebillyboy had extra qualifications in this area.
So your daughter is in grade 6, and going into 7, then. Is she changing schools for Grade 7? In Canada, kids go from elementary school (gr 1-6) to junior high school (7-9) then high school (10-12)usually 3 different schools. I'll state the obvious and recommend that you search for the best junior high in your vicinity. In Alberta we have "departmental exams" in grades 6, 9, and 12, and performance by school can be gleaned from this information. Its made public, so is easily accessible. If you have such a ranking system where you are, use it. It'll pay dividends.
I know this suggestion could cause some inconvenience. Your daughter may have to be bussed to that school, or have to take a cab, or you might have to drive her. We actually moved to the district of the school, but I don't know if that's an option for you. If it is, getting a jump on things this early allows you to find the right place in that neighbourhood, AND get used to the idea of moving, thereby reducing the stress and impact of the move. This might sound like a radical option, but this is your kids future you're dealing with. It could be worth it.
Better schools generally occurr in more upscale neighbourhoods because of tax base and parental expectations, and there are associated benefits to a better neighbourhood. Community leagues usually have better programs, crime is usually lower. Of course this is just a generalization.
I moved, when my daughter started second grade, into an area where I was told the school was good by several people I had met. At the time, there was no grading system for the schools.
The school I put her in after that experience, because I refused to let my daughter go back to a teacher who didn't care, was a decent school. However, they used a math program that did not allow fro transfer out in the middle of the entire program. IOW, if you didn't stay with it from 1-8th grade, you would have problems. We'll I could no longer afford to drive clear across town to take her to school and could no longer afford tuition at a private school. When I was laid off, that was it.
So I checked around again and was told that the middle school in my area was decent. I sent her there. Well, it would not have been so bad if she had been able to get into the G&T program. She missed by 5 points.
When my father was diagnosed with cancer, I moved back in with my mom, to help her with the hospice care for dad. My daughter moved in with my brother and his wife and changed schools mid-year.
So there have been some issues for her. I know she's accepting the situation but she's not real happy with it. Things have been up and down this last six months. She's staying with my brother until I can get through school after which I will probably have to move to another state.
There is no better demonstration of the folly of human conceits than this distant image of our tiny world. It underscores our responsibility to deal more kindly with one another, to preserve and cherish the pale blue dot, the only home we've known. Sagan |
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Dr Shari
Skeptic Friend
135 Posts |
Posted - 01/08/2002 : 18:27:45 [Permalink]
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My daughter has a Masters in SpecEd and worked for 5 years in a repressed neighborhood. If the child failed his work he was taken aside and offered extra help to get him to catch up with the class.
Now she teaches in an area where the household incomes are $200,000 a year and if a child is getting a C my daughter is told that she is making the class work too hard and to lower the standard so the students can get higher grades and keep the schools grade point average up.
Now explain to me how that helps a child with special needs to prepare themselves for life in the real world.
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gezzam
SFN Regular
Australia
751 Posts |
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chee
New Member
USA
35 Posts |
Posted - 01/18/2002 : 11:04:35 [Permalink]
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As an educator I have to admit to being entirely frustrated by these types of discussions and find myself wanting to respond to particular points instead of the overall problem. I'm going to try to do a little of both. I can only speak for myself based on the experiences I've had in my school district. Are there bad teachers? Of course, as in any profession, but they are generally few and far between. The rewards and pressures of teaching are not such that it is an attractive field for those who don't want to be there. Schools are not forced to keep ineffective teachers by our union. Our union is an advocate for professionalism in our field. Admittedly, removing an incompetent teacher can take time and there is a process of documenting deficiencies, mentoring, and retraining that must be tried but it is done and done frequently. Unfortunately, some administrators would prefer to pass the buck rather than spend the time. A "bad" teacher is a result of a principal afraid to address a problem.
Many districts have spent millions to educate teachers to address different learning styles, overcome stereotypes, teach to both ends of the achievement spectrum in blended classrooms, manage their classrooms more effectively, and recogonize cultural, religious, economic...differences in their activities. All those things they don't teach in grad school. Teachers oftentime spend hours planning engaging lessons and gathering materials and supplies because they want their classrooms to be exciting for students. Unfortunately, it takes more than just a teacher who wants to teach.
You also need students who want and are ready to learn. The desire to learn, the motivation to study, the value of education, the respect for those older and wiser, the appreciation for the efforts of others on our behalf are taught long before a student ever walks into a school.
The majority of classroom time a teacher has to teach is generally spent dealing with a minority of students. As a society, we expect our schools not just to educate our children but to raise them. It is an impossible job.
As a teacher, I saw 125 to 150 students a day in groups of 30 for approximately an hour. Some days I never got to teach because the time was spent monitoring uniform and other rule violations, settling conflicts, providing make up work and work for ISAP students, dealing with general misbehavior, and trying to get the attention of thirty teenagers who were much more concerned with who was going out with whom than studying creation mythology.
As a counselor now, I'm responsible for 450 7th and 8th graders and their emotional, academic, social, and career development. I am a guidance counselor, not a therapist, minister, psychiatrist, psychologist, social worker, nurse, or family counselor but that is what a lot of students, and their families, need.
If you want to improve the quality of our public school system, find social and family solutions to the problems these students face outside of school and bring in with them each day.
I could go on, but that's enough soapbox for now.
And, as an aside, most districts limit and monitor internet usage by students and filter sites containing chat rooms, games, or inappropriate content. (Sometimes overzealously). Field trips must be justified academically and approved by a central office as are movies and videos shown in a classroom.
A colder place I've never known, than with someone but yet alone. |
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Trish
SFN Addict
USA
2102 Posts |
Posted - 01/19/2002 : 03:02:01 [Permalink]
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Chee, here are some of the problems with getting a teacher fired in my state: Sex offenders who are teachers get passed from one school to another inside a school district because it takes at least three years to get rid of a sex offender. This is IMO ridiculous. I was told that it would take at least this long to do anything about my daughters second grade teacher if the school board were to receive more than the one complaint about her. None of the other parents had problems with the way she ran her class.
Denver Public Schools denied employment as a High School math teacher to a gentleman who has his PhD in math and has taught at some well known university (I can't remember which one). One of the TV stations found out about his not being hired and ran some background checks on him. There was nothing they could find to indicate that DPS had a reason for not hiring him. He was even willing to take the cut in pay to teach at the high school level. He moved to CO with that specific intent. He's now teaching at one of the local universities, they snatched him up without question. DPS expects students who don't speak english to take state mandated tests in english and perform well on those test otherwise they will close down the school or cut funding for that school. I've yet to figure out this reasoning. It would seem that if a school is performing poorly on the tests ways of improving the learning environment would help. They've cut the breakfast programs entirely from the school. This programs was designed so that students in some of the poorest neighborhoods could have a hot meal before school. It actually improved the students learning ability. DPS is considered one of the worst school systems in CO.
The teacher I had the problem with was in one of the better school systems. The school though was ranked 46 out of 46 in the school district. Nothing was being done to improve the school as far as I could tell. Had there been a few points between this school and the highest ranked school, there would have been little to no problem. The problem was that the school ranked too far point wise behind the 45th school. Of course I had to have the point system explained to me. But a teacher who fails a student in several subjects on midterms then suddenly the student scores well on report cards and the teacher says that she's improved considerably since she first started. Please. That's a smoke screen. I saw my daughters homework and it was well below her level of comprehension. Her K and 1st teachers were by far two of the most outstanding teachers I've ever met. I took her work back to her 1st grade teacher - she was upset at the way she was being held back. After the too lazy incident I pulled my daughter from the school and put her in private school.
I agree with a lot of what your saying about the family and social situations. However, it works on both ends. Teachers have to be willing to listen to parents and parents have to back the teachers sometimes over the objections of the student. It's not so much about what the student wants and it is about what is best for the student.
I've heard of great successes with self paced learning but that requires a type of discipline that most students don't have.
Is there something that can be done to isolate the disruptive students from the rest of the class so teachers can teach? Is there something that can be done to help alieviate the problem (i.e., in the earlier grades) so that it's not a huge problem later? Is there a means of reward system that can be instituted so students perform? (My daughter gets NASA patches every week for completing all of her homework on time. If she maintains her status on the honor roll then she'll get a NASA jacket to put those patches on.) While this is a little overboard for some parents and not appealing for all students, is there some type of reward program that could be instituted that would appeal to all students? It doesn't necessarily need to be something material. One of the things that was instituted in my daughters old school was lunch with the teachers in the teachers lounge. This worked for the grade school age, but what about older students? I think a lot of the problem stems from money meant for improving schools being eaten up between the school boards and the schools. One school district locally couldn't afford new text books because of the amount of middle bureaucracy eating money meant for the schools. They changed their system - it's better than it was before.
I never have and I don't mean to imply that all teachers are at fault for the failure of the public school systems. I know that parents lack of interest in their kids, tenure of teachers, and bureaucracy all play a part. However, is there something that can be done to at least improve the environment or the system? I realize there's not a lot that can be done about some students and some parents - but there is room for improvement in the system itself.
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There is no better demonstration of the folly of human conceits than this distant image of our world. It underscores our responsibility to deal more kindly with one another, to preserve and cherish the pale blue dot, the only home we've known. Sagan |
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Badger
Skeptic Friend
Canada
257 Posts |
Posted - 01/19/2002 : 11:03:17 [Permalink]
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Prickly subject. And the teachers are about to go on strike here too. They want 22% increase. Near as I can figure a teacher fresh out of university starts at $30K, and peaks out at $50K. 22% of that would be $6600 and $11000K, taking base to approx $37k, and peak to $61K. This is for front line staff, classroom work. I expect that if you get into administration the $$ go way up really quick (keep in mind that the above is $Cdn which is about 61% of an american dollar)
Now comparing that with other industries that I am familiar with, it's on par (after the proposed increase, I mean) with university educated employees. So while I'm somewhat pissed that they'd choose the middle of the school year, and winter to make their point, (I suppose the timing is perfect to highlight the issue) I say give 'em what they want and index their salaries to other industries then declare them essential service so they can't strike again.
Chee, you bring up a good point, as do you Trish. They're both sides of the same coin, as I see it. Front line staff work their butts off with their face in the blender day after day, and management fucks everything up in spite of them. I see it in many other areas, both in the private sector and public. Front line staff know the job, and do the best that they can with the tools that they are given. Management attends seminars, and goes with the corporate buzzwords of the month, and the trendy new philosophy that everyone else (no matter what business) is doing, with no concern to the peculiarities of their own core business.
As a result, megabucks are wasted by the politicos up the ladder because they have lost touch with the front line.
Just because we're hypnotized, that don't mean we can't dance. - Tonio K. |
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Megan
Skeptic Friend
USA
163 Posts |
Posted - 01/21/2002 : 21:26:57 [Permalink]
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Question here: Should schools be able to teach creation and/or evolution??
~Megan~
I only do what the voices in my head tell me to do. |
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Snake
SFN Addict
USA
2511 Posts |
Posted - 01/21/2002 : 23:31:41 [Permalink]
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quote:
Question here: Should schools be able to teach creation and/or evolution??
~Megan~
I don't think there's any question that schools SHOULD teach everything. IMO, that's what schools are for, to learn ideas (philosophies) as well as facts. It's how it's presented that I think most people have a problem with.
A good teacher should give all points of views and not show any bias. In fact just last month I finished a philosophy class with just such a teacher. I couldn't tell what his personal believes were as he taught us what the various opposing thoughts were of the philosohers we studied.
ps. Speaking of creationism, I should add, Gish was one of the people we had to read for the class. YUK!
(I like to keep all my text books, but I refused to even buy that one because of that idiot being in there.)
Rap Crap is to music what Paint by Numbers is to art!
Yes, I am NormaL!!
Carabao forever!!!
Edited by - snake on 01/21/2002 23:36:30 |
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James
SFN Regular
USA
754 Posts |
Posted - 01/22/2002 : 07:05:30 [Permalink]
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quote:
Question here: Should schools be able to teach creation and/or evolution??
~Megan~
Personally, I think they should teach it if there's evidence to support it; at least in science class. In a social studies or philosophies class or something similar, I would like to see discussion of all religions, from X-ianity to Navaho, from Islam to Shintoism. Maybe they all have a common origin in that they all tell the same story only from different POV's.
quote:
ps. Speaking of creationism, I should add, Gish was one of the people we had to read for the class. YUK!
(I like to keep all my text books, but I refused to even buy that one because of that idiot being in there.)
Ye gads, Snake! I hope you had a decontamination shower ready when you got home from that. 
"Believe nothing, no matter where you read it, or who said it, no matter if I have said it, unless it agrees with your own reason and your common sense." -Buddha |
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Donnie B.
Skeptic Friend
417 Posts |
Posted - 01/22/2002 : 07:18:16 [Permalink]
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quote:
Question here: Should schools be able to teach creation and/or evolution??
When you lump these two items together, you're mixing apples and... well, rocks.
"Creation", in the sense I think you mean it, is a religious belief about the origin of the world and of mankind. It proposes that a deity (God) willfully caused matter and energy to come into existence by some supernatural means.
"Evolution" is a scientific theory that forms the cornerstone of Biology and other natural sciences. It states that life proceeds by slow changes over long periods of time, with new species developing from earlier forms.
So the answer to your question is, schools should teach evolution in the science classroom, and about creation in other contexts, such as Philosophy or comparative religion classes.
-- Donnie B.
Brian: "No, no! You have to think for yourselves!" Crowd: "Yes! We have to think for ourselves!" |
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Snake
SFN Addict
USA
2511 Posts |
Posted - 01/22/2002 : 23:13:19 [Permalink]
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quote:
Ye gads, Snake! I hope you had a decontamination shower ready when you got home from that.
LOL. Actually I did feel kind of sick after having to sit through the lecture. I only 1/2 paid attention since I was once at the ICR. I never though of it then, having been THERE, that's when the decontamination should take place. Although it's so funny, if you see the displays in person, you just want to roll on the floor laughing.
Rap Crap is to music what Paint by Numbers is to art!
Yes, I am NormaL!!
Carabao forever!!! |
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