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Phantom
New Member

35 Posts

Posted - 10/16/2006 :  01:58:56  Show Profile Send Phantom a Private Message
There is a plan to perform a worldwide experiment with NDEs.
As far as I know, it is their intention to place computer monitors above patients' beds and out of their sight and project a continuous and random stream of images on its screen that simply cannot be perceived normally by the patients and medical personnel. The random order of the images would be registered by the computer so that the investigators could find out what image was shown at what specific time i.e. to determine if the image displayed and observed matched the time during the flat EEG.

Now, if a person would report correctly perceiving highly specific images on the screen during the NDE and while having a flat EEG, would this prove beyond all reasonable doubt that consciousness does survive clinical death and is ultimately independent of brain activity?

What specific targets would lend more credibility to the patients recounts of their observations during a flat EEG?

How could one enhance the attractiveness of targets?

Are there any particular targets that you would discourage the use of?

Finally, would informing patients about the set up and goals of the experiments, (so that some of them might get more motivated to perceive unusual details of the environment unrelated to their own bodies if they undergo an NDE) cause methodological problems?

"You laugh at me because I am different, but I laugh at you because you are all the same."

pleco
SFN Addict

USA
2996 Posts

Posted - 10/16/2006 :  05:41:38   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit pleco's Homepage Send pleco a Private Message
quote:
Finally, would informing patients about the set up and goals of the experiments, (so that some of them might get more motivated to perceive unusual details of the environment unrelated to their own bodies if they undergo an NDE) cause methodological problems?


A very big YES. Probably should have two groups: ones that know and ones that don't.

by Filthy
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Edited by - pleco on 10/16/2006 05:42:13
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend

Sweden
9666 Posts

Posted - 10/16/2006 :  06:34:48   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Send Dr. Mabuse an ICQ Message Send Dr. Mabuse a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by pleco

quote:
Finally, would informing patients about the set up and goals of the experiments, (so that some of them might get more motivated to perceive unusual details of the environment unrelated to their own bodies if they undergo an NDE) cause methodological problems?


A very big YES. Probably should have two groups: ones that know and ones that don't.

What's the point of setting up pretty pictures for disembodied consciousnesses if they don't know they should be looking for them?

The randomization of the pictures, and the scrambling of them in the time dimension preserves the integrity of the test in my opinion.

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furshur
SFN Regular

USA
1536 Posts

Posted - 10/16/2006 :  06:36:36   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send furshur a Private Message
quote:
Now, if a person would report correctly perceiving highly specific images on the screen during the NDE and while having a flat EEG, would this prove beyond all reasonable doubt that consciousness does survive clinical death and is ultimately independent of brain activity?

No, well sort of. IF someone could correctly report back what was on the screen it would mean that during a flat EEG you can percieve things outside of the normal range, but it says nothing about a DE as opposed to a NDE. It could be that when you reach the point of no return so to speak; your spirit, consciousness, or whatever evaporates. This experiment would only cover people who don't actually die.

It would still be quite a monumental discovery if magic type stuff happens during a NDE - sadly, I do not think we will discover that magic stuff happens, but hey you never know.


If I knew then what I know now then I would know more now than I know.
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BigPapaSmurf
SFN Die Hard

3192 Posts

Posted - 10/16/2006 :  06:43:41   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send BigPapaSmurf a Private Message
This type of experiment has been going on for years with no positive results, but lets just ignnore all that.

"...things I have neither seen nor experienced nor heard tell of from anybody else; things, what is more, that do not in fact exist and could not ever exist at all. So my readers must not believe a word I say." -Lucian on his book True History

"...They accept such things on faith alone, without any evidence. So if a fraudulent and cunning person who knows how to take advantage of a situation comes among them, he can make himself rich in a short time." -Lucian critical of early Christians c.166 AD From his book, De Morte Peregrini
Edited by - BigPapaSmurf on 10/16/2006 06:43:59
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard

USA
4574 Posts

Posted - 10/16/2006 :  10:34:03   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send H. Humbert a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Dr. Mabuse
The randomization of the pictures, and the scrambling of them in the time dimension preserves the integrity of the test in my opinion.


I don't like the idea of using images. If you've ever seen how "remote viewing" is evaluated, you'd understand how subjective the scoring process is. Someone scribbles on a piece of paper for awhile, then is shown the target. Next, both parties look for similarities between the drawing and the target to determine whether the viewer scored a "hit." For instance, draw a bunch of circles? The target could be a semi-truck, a helicopter with circular blades, a propeller plane, a bunch of grapes, a bunch of balloons, etc. etc. Any of these could potentially be regarded as "hits."

So how accurate would someone need to be in reporting an image "seen" during an NDE? I would prefer to see words used. No wriggle room. It must be an exact match to be considered a hit. I think it's key to use something that requires as little interpretation as possible.


"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes

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Edited by - H. Humbert on 10/16/2006 10:34:32
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pleco
SFN Addict

USA
2996 Posts

Posted - 10/16/2006 :  10:38:46   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit pleco's Homepage Send pleco a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Dr. Mabuse
[What's the point of setting up pretty pictures for disembodied consciousnesses if they don't know they should be looking for them?

The randomization of the pictures, and the scrambling of them in the time dimension preserves the integrity of the test in my opinion.




I bet you get interesting results if the test subjects are aware, along the lines of what Humbert is saying.

Maybe they should say that "something" is in the room, but not specifically what it is.

Of course, if I personally were really having an NDE, I think the last thing I would be worried about would be trying to find whatever it is that is in the room...lol.

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filthy
SFN Die Hard

USA
14408 Posts

Posted - 10/16/2006 :  11:42:25   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send filthy a Private Message
I don't know what the big deal is. The eminent Dr. MacDougll has long ago shown that the souls of humans and poisoned dogs weigh 21 grams per.
quote:
Dr. Duncan MacDougall was an early 20th century doctor in Haverhill, Massachusetts who sought to measure the weight purportedly lost by a human body when the soul departed the body upon death.


This sounds like more of the same; covering barren, old ground with a new map.




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Dude
SFN Die Hard

USA
6891 Posts

Posted - 10/16/2006 :  14:30:32   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Dude a Private Message
I doubt anyone who has ever claimed a NDE has had a "flat EEG", and if they did, there is probably no way to verify that.

An EEG is typically only performed on patients who are exibiting other signs of serious brain trauma, or on those who are experiencing something like seizures (there are other reasons, obviously, but they are less common).

Those two groups are extremely unlikely to experience a NDE, as the first group will probably never regain enough function to report one and the second group is (generally) otherwise healthy.

Perhaps you meant ECG?


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Dave W.
Info Junkie

USA
25973 Posts

Posted - 10/16/2006 :  20:42:59   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Dave W.'s Homepage Send Dave W. a Private Message
I still think that my 23-step experiment for verifying NDEs (without the need for planting images or words or anything else) would be appropriate. But you never commented on it (good or bad) back in February of 2003 when I wrote it up for you, Phantom.

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beskeptigal
SFN Die Hard

USA
3834 Posts

Posted - 10/16/2006 :  21:50:59   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send beskeptigal a Private Message
There are a few of those changing hidden signs around. Since they've been in use, not a single NDE person has read the message. I'm waiting.
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Phantom
New Member

35 Posts

Posted - 10/17/2006 :  02:01:26   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Phantom a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Dave W.

I still think that my 23-step experiment for verifying NDEs (without the need for planting images or words or anything else) would be appropriate. But you never commented on it (good or bad) back in February of 2003 when I wrote it up for you, Phantom.



When I put your 23-step experiment to a medical Doctor the reply was:

"The following shows no understanding whatsoever of research that is feasible or appropriate in a medical environment. The author of this needs to review this with anyone with significant medical research experience. I don't have the time to educate the author on this. I will only say that medical research must be cleared by an Institutional Review Board, and several things proposed would not be accepted (for example, #1 is ridiculous)."

Circumstances took me in a different direction at the time (2003) you wrote your 23-step experiment and therefore I did not have time to investigate further but I will endeavour to seek more detailed responses to your methodology.

"You laugh at me because I am different, but I laugh at you because you are all the same."
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Dave W.
Info Junkie

USA
25973 Posts

Posted - 10/17/2006 :  11:46:40   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Dave W.'s Homepage Send Dave W. a Private Message
Well, what can I say, Phantom? The doctor appears to be more concerned with patient rights and ethics (that's what the IRB is for) than with actually getting at the truth of the matter. Obviously, to run appropriate tests for this question, it would be necessary to examine the entirety of a very special doctor/patient relationship (one in which the doctor knowingly and purposefully "kills" the patient and then brings him/her back), one that's so special that asking the patient and doctor both for full disclosure of everything wouldn't necessarily be out of the question.

Otherwise, you're left with the wholly unsatisfactory "solution" of rigging up some hidden images and waiting until someone says something like what's in one of the images at about the right time. Too many uncontrolled variables. And to answer this question:
quote:
Finally, would informing patients about the set up and goals of the experiments, (so that some of them might get more motivated to perceive unusual details of the environment unrelated to their own bodies if they undergo an NDE) cause methodological problems?
An IRB would likely reject an experimental protocol which fails to get informed consent from the study subjects beforehand. As others have already mentioned, a control group is necessary - a group for which there is a hidden computer monitor, but all it displays is blackness. The rate at which the control group reports seeing "hidden images" while "dead" would be a measure of the placebo effect of the informed consent itself.

And, of course, this informed consent for a random hospital patient would generate more than methodological problems regarding their "motivation," as not many people are going to take "we're running an experiment that you can participate in by flatlining for a while" very well. My grandparents were all fairly average folks in most respects, and I think they, presented with the idea of this sort of testing being done on them, that they'd have told the researcher to get the hell out.

- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
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Phantom
New Member

35 Posts

Posted - 10/18/2006 :  03:53:22   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Phantom a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by furshur


...It could be that when you reach the point of no return so to speak; your spirit, consciousness, or whatever evaporates...


Evaporates to where? What would be the scientific process? If the experiment provides irrefutable evidence that the patient was able to make observations at a time when they had a flat EEG, conciousness would be shown to exist independently of of the physical body. Why do we then have to postulate that it would evaporate?
quote:
Originally posted by Dave W.

...Obviously, to run appropriate tests for this question, it would be necessary to examine the entirety of a very special doctor/patient relationship (one in which the doctor knowingly and purposefully "kills" the patient and then brings him/her back)...


The test would not require the doctor to purposefully "kill" the patient and then bring him/her back - the test will involve patients who (judging by their medical condition) may get an NDE.

quote:
Originally posted by Dude

I doubt anyone who has ever claimed a NDE has had a "flat EEG", and if they did, there is probably no way to verify that.



quote:
Originally posted by Dave W.



Otherwise, you're left with the wholly unsatisfactory "solution" of rigging up some hidden images and waiting until someone says something like what's in one of the images at about the right time. Too many uncontrolled variables...


If the patient recounts their story and accurately (where there is no room for interpretation) identifies images, words etc. that were only present and consistent with the time of flat EEG, why would this be unsatisfactory?
Edited by - Phantom on 10/18/2006 07:54:04
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BigPapaSmurf
SFN Die Hard

3192 Posts

Posted - 10/18/2006 :  05:09:26   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send BigPapaSmurf a Private Message
Its not, they have been doing it for years to no effect, get over it.

"...things I have neither seen nor experienced nor heard tell of from anybody else; things, what is more, that do not in fact exist and could not ever exist at all. So my readers must not believe a word I say." -Lucian on his book True History

"...They accept such things on faith alone, without any evidence. So if a fraudulent and cunning person who knows how to take advantage of a situation comes among them, he can make himself rich in a short time." -Lucian critical of early Christians c.166 AD From his book, De Morte Peregrini
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Phantom
New Member

35 Posts

Posted - 10/18/2006 :  05:52:21   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Phantom a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by BigPapaSmurf

Its not, they have been doing it for years to no effect, get over it.



If you have nothing to contribute to my thread why waste your time posting such spiteful comments. I already read your ignorant first post so why repeat yourself? You have too much time on your hands...

Anyway, I am grateful to all those who have put forward sensible arguments / points for contemplation and discussion.

"You laugh at me because I am different, but I laugh at you because you are all the same."
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