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Dave W.
Info Junkie

USA
25973 Posts

Posted - 10/18/2006 :  10:02:54   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Dave W.'s Homepage Send Dave W. a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Phantom

The test would not require the doctor to purposefully "kill" the patient and then bring him/her back - the test will involve patients who (judging by their medical condition) may get an NDE.
No, the test that I proposed would, just like they purposefully "killed" Pam whatshername temporarily as part of her surgery (that's what you said, if I remember correctly). My test would require very carefully chosen patients beforehand, not any random person who wound up in the hospital. Perhaps you and the doctor you spoke with both didn't understand that.
quote:
If the patient recounts their story and accurately (where there is no room for interpretation) identifies images, words etc. that were only present and consistent with the time of flat EEG, why would this be unsatisfactory?
What are the criteria for a "hit" that would exclude interpretation? I'm having trouble thinking of any, which is why I had teams of analysts who would have to agree on all observations before my test would proceed.

- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
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furshur
SFN Regular

USA
1536 Posts

Posted - 10/18/2006 :  10:35:36   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send furshur a Private Message
quote:
I said:
...It could be that when you reach the point of no return so to speak; your spirit, consciousness, or whatever evaporates...

quote:
Evaporates to where?
No idea.
quote:
What would be the scientific process?
No idea.
quote:
If the experiment provides irrefutable evidence that the patient was able to make observations at a time when they had a flat EEG, conciousness would be shown to exist independently of of the physical body. Why do we then have to postulate that it would evaporate?
We don't, the point is we still would have no information concerning an individual after death. We would only have information about what happens when a person almost dies...



If I knew then what I know now then I would know more now than I know.
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Phantom
New Member

35 Posts

Posted - 10/23/2006 :  07:31:07   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Phantom a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Dave W.

My test would require very carefully chosen patients beforehand, not any random person who wound up in the hospital.

The patients in this experiment would not be chosen at random, however, thus far there have been no clear decisions concerning the exact methodology.


quote:
Originally posted by Dave W.

What are the criteria for a "hit" that would exclude interpretation? I'm having trouble thinking of any, which is why I had teams of analysts who would have to agree on all observations before my test would proceed.

H Humber proposed the use of 'words' - as he stated, "No wriggle room". Why would you have trouble with this?

quote:
Originally posted by furshur

We would only have information about what happens when a person almost dies...

You may be interested to read the following:

http://members.lycos.nl/Kritisch/noactivebrain.html

"You laugh at me because I am different, but I laugh at you because you are all the same."
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Dave W.
Info Junkie

USA
25973 Posts

Posted - 10/23/2006 :  11:59:00   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Dave W.'s Homepage Send Dave W. a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Phantom

H Humber proposed the use of 'words' - as he stated, "No wriggle room". Why would you have trouble with this?
In what language?
quote:
You may be interested to read the following:

http://members.lycos.nl/Kritisch/noactivebrain.html
Wow, that's terrifying:
I believe it is fair to say that there are no known relevant physical differences between clinical death and final brain death, and that claims about possible other, physical or nonphysical relevant differences remain purely speculative. For all we know, we have every reason to believe as yet, that what we discover about consciousness during clinical death bears a direct relation to what awaits us after death. Therefore, the most parsimonious hypothesis is that consciousness survives death as well as temporary clinical death.
So if we have no reason to believe there's any difference, then we are forced to conclude that the entire afterlife is "tunnels of light" and our ancestors telling us "it's okay" and other such crap. Now I am afraid of death, 'cause that's going to be a boring eternity.

- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
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Why not question something for a change?
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Phantom
New Member

35 Posts

Posted - 10/23/2006 :  14:49:39   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Phantom a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Dave W.

In what language?


In the language of the country that the experiment takes place. Or maybe random words in a variety of languages common to the geographical region. It may be determined by the methodology - patients may have "death" induced as in the case of Pam Reynolds. In such a scenario we would obviously know what language to use.

quote:
Originally posted by Dave W.

Wow, that's terrifying: So if we have no reason to believe there's any difference, then we are forced to conclude that the entire afterlife is "tunnels of light" and our ancestors telling us "it's okay" and other such crap. Now I am afraid of death, 'cause that's going to be a boring eternity.



Why is it crap? Is that really the most intelligent response you could muster? If you actually read the accounts of those who experience NDE's then you will realise that your description is merely a comical parody. C'mon...cite an account where someone who has undergone an NDE has described "tunnels of light" etc. as the entire afterlife. Nonsense. You completely ignored the point the author was making about there being no known relevant physical differences between clinical death and final brain death and instead "attempted" to make a joke.

I'm still waiting for a credible explanation from our mainstream science that accounts for conscious experiences during the period of flat EEG.

I thought I would receive some intellectual debate here but instead I'm greeted by pre-pubescent responses such as "crap" or "get over it".

"You laugh at me because I am different, but I laugh at you because you are all the same."
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Dave W.
Info Junkie

USA
25973 Posts

Posted - 10/23/2006 :  15:18:47   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Dave W.'s Homepage Send Dave W. a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Phantom

Why is it crap?
I've yet to hear about any NDE "experience" that I would actually want to share.
quote:
Is that really the most intelligent response you could muster? If you actually read the accounts of those who experience NDE's then you will realise that your description is merely a comical parody. C'mon...cite an account where someone who has undergone an NDE has described "tunnels of light" etc. as the entire afterlife. Nonsense. You completely ignored the point the author was making about there being no known relevant physical differences between clinical death and final brain death and instead "attempted" to make a joke.
No, my point was that by the author's same logic, we have to assume that the whole afterlife is no different from an NDE. And we get definitions like this:
A near-death experience is the reported memory of all impressions during a special state of consciousness, including specific elements such as out-of-body experience, pleasant feelings, and seeing a tunnel, a light, deceased relatives, or a life review.

- Pim van Lommel
Those are the common "classical elements," and by your author's logic, we have no reason to think that once a person is "dead dead," those same elements don't simply repeat over and over and over again. That's not something I would wish on anyone.
quote:
I'm still waiting for a credible explanation from our mainstream science that accounts for conscious experiences during the period of flat EEG.
I'm still waiting for an explanation of how anyone knows that any particular "experience" happened during a flat EEG.
quote:
I thought I would receive some intellectual debate here but instead I'm greeted by pre-pubescent responses such as "crap" or "get over it".
Apparently, you're having trouble understanding what people are saying, and so are misrepresenting them.

- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too.
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Phantom
New Member

35 Posts

Posted - 10/24/2006 :  10:19:44   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Phantom a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Dave W.

Apparently, you're having trouble understanding what people are saying, and so are misrepresenting them.


Please clarify this bizarre statement. I'm not misunderstanding or misrepresenting anybody.

quote:
Originally posted by Dave W.

...we have to assume that the whole afterlife is no different from an NDE. Those are the common "classical elements," and by your author's logic, we have no reason to think that once a person is "dead dead," those same elements don't simply repeat over and over and over again. That's not something I would wish on anyone


Why should those elements have to repeat in an afterlife? Pure speculation. Those who have experienced 'deep' NDEs discuss what I would describe as 'profound' insights regarding the afterlife going far beyond your simple portrayal, but the nature of the afterlife is not the concern of my thread topic. Your speculation that such an afterlife would be boring, has no bearing on the validity of the author's point.

Furshur stated that we have no information concerning an individual after death. But the author of the article I referred to states that since there is no known relevant physical differences between clinical death and final brain death, therefore according to NDE research, there is no reason to believe that conciousness terminates upon final brain death i.e. consciousness continues after death - hence we have information concerning an individual after death.

quote:
Originally posted by Dave W.

I'm still waiting for an explanation of how anyone knows that any particular "experience" happened during a flat EEG.


I addressed this point 3 years ago. Perhaps you had trouble understanding the explanation.

Here is another quote from Neuropsychiatrist Peter Fenwick;

There is a confusional onset and offset, and there is no brain-based memory functioning. Everything that constructs our world for us is, in fact, ‘‘down.'' There is no possibility of the brain creating any images. Memory is not functioning during this time, so it should be impossible to have clearly structured and lucid experiences, and because of brain damage, memory should be significantly impaired, and you should not be able to remember any experiences which occurred during that time. Now, that raises interesting and difficult questions for us, because the NDErs say that their experiences occur during unconsciousness, and science maintains that this is not possible.

When the heart stops...and consciousness is lost...there is a very quick descent into unconsciousness. Those of you who have ever fainted will agree that when you faint you lose consciousness very quickly. So you lose consciousness, then you are unconscious, and then the heart restarts, so science says the NDE cannot occur while you are unconsciousness. Now, as you slowly regain consciousness, the slow recovery is all confusional, so the NDE cannot occur there.

So then, as far as science is concerned, the NDE cannot occur at the point the heart stops, it cannot occur at any point during the period of unconsciousness, and it is unlikely to occur at the point of confusional arousal, because it is not typical of that level of consciousness...

http://iands.org/research/fenwick3.php

Another quote from Cardiologist Pim Van Lommel;

So we have to conclude tha

"You laugh at me because I am different, but I laugh at you because you are all the same."
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Dave W.
Info Junkie

USA
25973 Posts

Posted - 10/24/2006 :  11:36:15   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Dave W.'s Homepage Send Dave W. a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Phantom

Please clarify this bizarre statement. I'm not misunderstanding or misrepresenting anybody.

quote:
Originally posted by Dave W.

...we have to assume that the whole afterlife is no different from an NDE. Those are the common "classical elements," and by your author's logic, we have no reason to think that once a person is "dead dead," those same elements don't simply repeat over and over and over again. That's not something I would wish on anyone


Why should those elements have to repeat in an afterlife? Pure speculation. Those who have experienced 'deep' NDEs discuss what I would describe as 'profound' insights regarding the afterlife going far beyond your simple portrayal, but the nature of the afterlife is not the concern of my thread topic. Your speculation that such an afterlife would be boring, has no bearing on the validity of the author's point.

Furshur stated that we have no information concerning an individual after death. But the author of the article I referred to states that since there is no known relevant physical differences between clinical death and final brain death, therefore according to NDE research, there is no reason to believe that conciousness terminates upon final brain death i.e. consciousness continues after death - hence we have information concerning an individual after death.
By the same logic, I have absolutely no reason to believe that experiences after final brain death are any different from those reported by the majority of patients during clinical death. There are no relevant differences between the two states, so the result ought to be the same: tunnels of light, voices, floating around rooms, etc.
quote:
quote:
Originally posted by Dave W.

I'm still waiting for an explanation of how anyone knows that any particular "experience" happened during a flat EEG.


I addressed this point 3 years ago. Perhaps you had trouble understanding the explanation...

...Why do you disagree that these experiences happen during a flat EEG?
I see no "explanation" in those things other than "there is a period of complete brain non-function between this time and that time, and we think these experiences and memories were formed during that time," but I see no evidence that they were.
quote:
When do you think they occur?
I don't have a dog in that race, my opinion doesn't matter.

- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too.
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Phantom
New Member

35 Posts

Posted - 10/24/2006 :  16:17:36   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Phantom a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Dave W.

I see no "explanation" in those things other than "there is a period of complete brain non-function between this time and that time, and we think these experiences and memories were formed during that time," but I see no evidence that they were

I'm amazed. You see no evidence that the NDE is formed during the period of flat EEG, and therefore dismiss the "explanation", yet you are incapable of providing an alternative "explanation" as to when the experience would occur - simply beacuse your opinion doesn't matter? That's an incredibly weak response.

"You laugh at me because I am different, but I laugh at you because you are all the same."
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Dave W.
Info Junkie

USA
25973 Posts

Posted - 10/24/2006 :  19:31:46   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Dave W.'s Homepage Send Dave W. a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Phantom

I'm amazed. You see no evidence that the NDE is formed during the period of flat EEG, and therefore dismiss the "explanation", yet you are incapable of providing an alternative "explanation" as to when the experience would occur - simply beacuse your opinion doesn't matter? That's an incredibly weak response.
I asked for an explanation of how anyone knows that any particular "experience" happened during a flat EEG, and all you provided was Fenwick saying when experiences shouldn't happen; van Lommel stating that he concluded that NDEs occured during a flat EEG, but not explaining how he concluded that; and van Lommel quoting Fenwick and Parnia about when experiences shouldn't happen (again).

You completely failed to answer my question: how is it that anyone knows that any particular alleged "experience" occured during a flat EEG? As an NDE occurs, neither the patient nor the medical staff can possibly say, "an NDE is occuring." Where is there a good explanation of how, well after the fact, they are able to match up chronolgies so well that they know the time that a particular patient had a particular experience "imprinted" upon his/her consciousness as a memory, and can match that up with the timespan of that patient's flat EEG?

- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too.
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Phantom
New Member

35 Posts

Posted - 10/26/2006 :  06:49:05   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Phantom a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Dave W.

I asked for an explanation of how anyone knows that any particular "experience" happened during a flat EEG, and all you provided was Fenwick saying when experiences shouldn't happen; van Lommel stating that he concluded that NDEs occured during a flat EEG, but not explaining how he concluded that; and van Lommel quoting Fenwick and Parnia about when experiences shouldn't happen (again).

You completely failed to answer my question: how is it that anyone knows that any particular alleged "experience" occured during a flat EEG? As an NDE occurs, neither the patient nor the medical staff can possibly say, "an NDE is occuring." Where is there a good explanation of how, well after the fact, they are able to match up chronolgies so well that they know the time that a particular patient had a particular experience "imprinted" upon his/her consciousness as a memory, and can match that up with the timespan of that patient's flat EEG?


I clearly answered your question - it can't happen prior to or after a flat EEG according to science. Based on what Fenwick stated, it is obvious when Van Lommel concludes NDEs occur. The verdical accounts (from the research studies conducted by Prof. Ring, Dr. Parnia, Dr. Sabom, Dr. Van Lommel etc.), at the time of flat EEG also lend further support that the NDE occurs during this period.

Do you deny that people have NDEs? If so, how do you explain the phenomenon?

If you accept that people do have NDEs, but refuse to acknowledge that it happens during a flat EEG, when does it happen?

"You laugh at me because I am different, but I laugh at you because you are all the same."
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Dave W.
Info Junkie

USA
25973 Posts

Posted - 10/26/2006 :  06:59:38   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Dave W.'s Homepage Send Dave W. a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Phantom

I clearly answered your question - it can't happen prior to or after a flat EEG according to science. Based on what Fenwick stated, it is obvious when Van Lommel concludes NDEs occur. The verdical accounts (from the research studies conducted by Prof. Ring, Dr. Parnia, Dr. Sabom, Dr. Van Lommel etc.), at the time of flat EEG also lend further support that the NDE occurs during this period.
How does any of that explain how they matched up experiences and flat EEGs chronologically? It doesn't. It utterly fails to answer the question I asked.
quote:
Do you deny that people have NDEs?
Nope.
quote:
If you accept that people do have NDEs, but refuse to acknowledge that it happens during a flat EEG, when does it happen?
How many times will I have to ask how it is known that they do happen during flat EEGs before you will actually answer that question? I'm only refusing to acknowledge when you say that they occur because you are refusing to provide actual evidence of when they occur, and instead just quoted people stating that they had concluded they occured at particular times. That's not evidence, that's revelation.

- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too.
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furshur
SFN Regular

USA
1536 Posts

Posted - 10/28/2006 :  21:58:02   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send furshur a Private Message
quote:
Furshur stated that we have no information concerning an individual after death. But the author of the article I referred to states that since there is no known relevant physical differences between clinical death and final brain death, therefore according to NDE research, there is no reason to believe that conciousness terminates upon final brain death

I still draw a big distinction between a NDE and an actual DE. If someone has a NDE it would be ashame to cremate them, I feel that they should be encouraged to continue to interact with society. If someone has a DE I think having that persons rotting corpse in the living room would be in bad taste.
I guess I just think that there is a very large relevent physical differences between someone dying and someone dreaming while they almost die.
But hey thats just me..


If I knew then what I know now then I would know more now than I know.
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