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Siberia
SFN Addict
Brazil
2322 Posts |
 Posted - 12/18/2006 : 07:25:42 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by perrodetokio
Excuse me, maybe I don't have the right to state this since I joined SFN not too long ago and I rarely post anything... however, do you realise that this post consists of 11 pages of the same thing over and over again?
It gives the impression that it's taking your time and efforts and always come back to (almost) the same thing.
I mean, if someone is deaf to logic and reason, perhaps the person is also deaf to insults and sarcasm.
(I promise nextime I post something it shall be of more interest than these worthless thoughts of mine).
salud!
Yes, yes it is and we're well aware of that. However, we're also stubborn and headstrong and refuse to give up, apparently.
And welcome to SFN! Another Latin American member, I see  |
"Why are you afraid of something you're not even sure exists?"
- The Kovenant, Via Negativa
"People who don't like their beliefs being laughed at shouldn't have such funny beliefs."
-- unknown
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 12/18/2006 : 08:03:49 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by perrodetokio
Excuse me, maybe I don't have the right to state this since I joined SFN not too long ago and I rarely post anything... however, do you realise that this post consists of 11 pages of the same thing over and over again?
It gives the impression that it's taking your time and efforts and always come back to (almost) the same thing.
I mean, if someone is deaf to logic and reason, perhaps the person is also deaf to insults and sarcasm.
(I promise nextime I post something it shall be of more interest than these worthless thoughts of mine).
salud!
Indeed. But believe me, my friend, we've seen a lot worse.... And a lot better, comes to that.
Welcome to SFN!
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist! 
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GK Paul
Skeptic Friend
USA
306 Posts |
Posted - 12/19/2006 : 10:55:38 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Dr. Mabuse
quote:
Originally posted by GK Paul
In other words it is more logical for life to come from life than for life to come from non-life.
It's not about more logical or less logical. It's a question of when.
We have already discussed that chemical processes can result in highly complex chemical compounds, and that very simple and abundant chemicals can form one of the common building blocks of DNA.
I'll grant you that if you have one instance of life, then the statistical probability that it came from another life is higher than from non-life. But that does not mean that life from non-life is less logical. Life from non-life is mathematical. There is ongoing research on how that works.
quote:
Therefore the belief in a Living Creator is more logical than the belief in non-living natural processes as the originator of the universe and ultimately life.
No, because your Living Creator had to be created. Somehow, somewhere, someone created Eternity and the God who is associated with it. Hence, your logic is flawed and mine is not.
I see that you have misrepresented what Filthy has said. Though some people have been harsh on you, I none the less feel obligated to point out that your argument seems less than honest. That worries me, I thought you expected people to play nice with you, but then you go and do something like this. It puts a black spot in your already tarnished record.
If I didn't knew better I'd suspect you are intentionally trying to strike yourself out.
In your first sentence it sounds like your putting logic on the back burner in order to support your argument. That should concern everyone in a skeptic forum. Than you immediately talk science (which is all about logic). I don't understand your logic. |
"Something cannot come from nothing" -- Ken Tanaka - geologist
"The existence of a Being endowed with intelligence and wisdom is a necessary inference from a study of celestial mechanics" --Sir Isaac Newton
GK Paul |
| Edited by - GK Paul on 12/19/2006 11:22:12 |
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GeeMack
SFN Regular
USA
1093 Posts |
Posted - 12/19/2006 : 11:10:07 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by GK Paul...
I don't understand your logic.
Face it, GK Paul, you don't understand anyone's logic, excepting perhaps that seriously distorted fallacy that you use to "logically" support your superstition. You know, the one that goes something like, "I don't understand science, therefore the supernatural beings I believe in must be real."
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GK Paul
Skeptic Friend
USA
306 Posts |
Posted - 12/19/2006 : 11:13:47 [Permalink]
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As I've mentioned several times, I do not respond to GeeMack, Half Mooner, Dave W., Starman, McQ, and Fripp for reasons I've already mentioned. If they want to come into my forum in spite of this, I guess there is nothing I can do. The only reason I keep mentioning this is that there are new people coming into the forum and they might wonder why I'm not responding to certain comments.
Once again, I am open to apologies (thru private messages) for past personal attacks - but it doesn't look like they will ever come. It's their loss, because I might have some insight into their posts that would increase their awareness.
edited to add a forgotten name.
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"Something cannot come from nothing" -- Ken Tanaka - geologist
"The existence of a Being endowed with intelligence and wisdom is a necessary inference from a study of celestial mechanics" --Sir Isaac Newton
GK Paul |
| Edited by - GK Paul on 12/19/2006 13:56:05 |
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GeeMack
SFN Regular
USA
1093 Posts |
Posted - 12/19/2006 : 11:33:31 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by GK Paul...
As I've mentioned several times, I do not respond to GeeMack, Half Mooner, Dave W., Starman, and Fripp for reasons I've already mentioned. If they want to come into my forum in spite of this, I guess there is nothing I can do. The only reason I keep mentioning this is that there are new people coming into the forum and they might wonder why I'm not responding to certain comments.
The reason you're not responding to certain people is because they've publicly made a note of how you're acting like a spoiled brat. You've treated people like shit in these forums, GK Paul, and even the new people who might come in here only have to read a few pages of any of these threads to see that.
quote:
Once again, I am open to apologies (thru private messages) for past personal attacks - but it doesn't look like they will ever come. It's their loss, because I might have some insight into their posts that would increase their awareness.
And you might expect apologies after you apologize to all the members of SFN for your lying and treating people with contempt and disrespect (but don't count on it). Get off your smug, holier-than-thou high horse, GK Paul. Get some balls, some integrity, and some honesty. You know as well as we that it is you who owes apologies and an explanation for your ignorance and your rude behavior.
Also, your threat of withholding insight unless people meet your silly demands is a hollow one. You've demonstrated time and again how you will ignore postings which make you uncomfortable and refuse to answer perfectly legitimate questions. You've played that childish trick before. You remember, the one where you impose certain conditions and expect people to succumb to them before you answer their questions? Well even when people did jump through your silly hoops you still refused to engage in a mature, honest discussion. You're a two bit liar, GK Paul, and you're not fooling anyone here but yourself. Not even the newbies.
Oh, and don't forget, since you are a liar, if you're right about your superstition, you're going to Hell when you die anyway! 
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26031 Posts |
Posted - 12/19/2006 : 11:42:31 [Permalink]
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I am open to apologies from you, GK Paul, and continue to reply to you so that the lines of communication remain open. It's your loss that you refuse to communicate due to your denial of the fact that you're a rude little man, and simply are afraid to increase your awareness of yourself. No 'might' about it. See how much more Christ-like I am than you, GK Paul? I share my "insights" with you even though you've done me wrong. It's called "turning the other cheek," and I think there's something in the Bible about it. You might want to read that book, especially the "new" part. I'm pretty sure that it doesn't say "And lo these many months did Jesus hold a grudge" anywhere.
(To everyone else:  ) |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9696 Posts |
Posted - 12/19/2006 : 12:01:02 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by GK Paul
In your first sentence it sounds like your putting logic on the back burner in order to support your argument. That should concern everyone in a skeptic forum. Than you immediately in the next sentence talk science (which is all about logic). I don't understand your logic.
Having come nowhere in our discussions so far, I don't expect you to understand. I don't mean this derogatory, but try to think of this as constructive criticism: Your understanding of science and logic is seriously flawed, coloured by you refusal to think outside the box your faith in the Bible put you in.
And you once again managed to avoid responding to the parts in my post that are seriously damaging to your world view. That was also to be expected, given your history of closed mindedness in your postings.
quote:
quote:
It's not about more logical or less logical.
In your first sentence it sounds like your putting logic on the back burner in order to support your argument.
I don't understand how you could think that. To me it seems illogical to think like you do, so if you can please explain how you came to this conclusion, maybe you make me see the light.
In other words it is more logical for life to come from life than for life to come from non-life.
This is not a statement of logic, it's a statement of probability or statistics.
What was the more likely pre-existing condition to the life we can observe today?
To that answer, we both agree the answer is "life".
The answer however, depends entirely on how the question was asked. It only accounts for the life we observe today.
DNA mutates, and adds complexity to living organisms.
The longer back in time we look, the living organisms generally becomes less and less complex. Turning back the clock more, we will finally have living organisms that is as simple as it can be and still be called living.
This is where your logic breaks down. You see barrier which cannot be crossed. But I say that this barrier of yours is imaginary, made up in your mind. Here's why:
Living organisms are very complex chemical compounds that has the ability to self-replicate. If we exchange the words "living organisms" with "very complex self replicating chemical compounds", the imaginary barrier you have set up disappears, and we can continue turning the clock back-wards to lesser and lesser complexity. This is the domain of the field of research called Abiogenesis. It is still a very young research-field so theories of life from non-life are still only sketchy. But so was astronomy, biology, physics, and atomic theory at one time or another.
Ok, now I have written a post where you have failed to address the scientific content, and only nit-picked one sentence where you display a misunderstanding of what logic means. Would you care to address the rest of the post(s)? |
Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9696 Posts |
Posted - 12/19/2006 : 12:07:19 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by GK Paul
Once again, I am open to apologies (thru private messages) for past personal attacks - but it doesn't look like they will ever come. It's their loss, because I might have some insight into their posts that would increase their awareness.
Respect is a two way street.
You have misrepresented Filthy, so we expect you to apologise for doing so. You don't want to seem hypocritical for demanding people apologise to you, then turn your back on people you yourself have wronged?
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Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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GK Paul
Skeptic Friend
USA
306 Posts |
Posted - 12/19/2006 : 12:08:44 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by moakley
quote:
Originally posted by GK Paul
... I don't believe the many writers in the bible were lying. They definitely had a perceptional experience that came from God.
If this is your criteria for knowing that the bible is the devinely inspired word of god, then you must also believe that Quran, Holy Book of Mormon, and many other such books are also devinely inspired. Otherwise, you would not have a consistent approach to determining the validity of such works, since your only evidence is that the book claims to be devinely inspired.
Jesus predicted false prophets in Mathew ch.7 vs. 15-20. He said you will know them by the fruit they bear. I would have to say there is some bad fruit coming out of the Middle East. He also said they look like sheep on the outside, but inside they are like ravenous wolves. |
"Something cannot come from nothing" -- Ken Tanaka - geologist
"The existence of a Being endowed with intelligence and wisdom is a necessary inference from a study of celestial mechanics" --Sir Isaac Newton
GK Paul |
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McQ
Skeptic Friend
USA
258 Posts |
Posted - 12/19/2006 : 12:41:48 [Permalink]
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What was the topic of this thread originally?
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Elvis didn't do no drugs!
--Penn Gillette |
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pleco
SFN Addict
USA
2998 Posts |
Posted - 12/19/2006 : 12:44:08 [Permalink]
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quote:
Jesus predicted false prophets in Mathew ch.7 vs. 15-20. He said you will know them by the fruit they bear. I would have to say there is some bad fruit coming out of the Middle East. He also said they look like sheep on the outside, but inside they are like ravenous wolves.
Yeah, Jesus included. |
by Filthy
The neo-con methane machine will soon be running at full fart. |
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GK Paul
Skeptic Friend
USA
306 Posts |
Posted - 12/19/2006 : 12:51:48 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Neurosis
quote:
Originally posted by GK Paul
Well I'm glad you admitted that a god or demon or a natural process are "equally good conjectures" even though you lean to natural processes (for some reason). But to be honest with you, I never did finish my line of thinking in my previous post because I was tired and it was a rather deep subject to go further when tired.
But if God or demon or natural processes are equally acceptable (as you agreed) for causing the universe and life, than it is more logical to believe an eternal "living" being is the originator of the universe because that universe contains life. And surely there is a much greater probability that an eternal "living" intelligent being created additional life than for a "non-living" non-intelligent natural process to produce life.
In other words it is more logical for life to come from life than for life to come from non-life. Therefore the belief in a Living Creator is more logical than the belief in non-living natural processes as the originator of the universe and ultimately life.
No. What he said was they were both equally scientifically provable. Not that they were equally probable. Bigfoot and unicorns and martians are all equally scienifically proovable, does that mean that you can believe in unicorns because bigfoot is not any more plausible?
And logically the god hypothesis fails. I think that has already been shown.
Filthy never said they were both equally scientifically provable. Filthy implied that they were equally good conjectures to explain the origin of the universe.
And there can only be two causes for the origin of the universe - An intelligent cause or an unintelligent cause. And if other people think their equally provable or equally good conjectures that's there right. But I maintain it is more logical to believe in the intelligent cause because it makes more sense that intelligence created additional intelligence than for non-intelligent matter to create intelligence.
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"Something cannot come from nothing" -- Ken Tanaka - geologist
"The existence of a Being endowed with intelligence and wisdom is a necessary inference from a study of celestial mechanics" --Sir Isaac Newton
GK Paul |
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GK Paul
Skeptic Friend
USA
306 Posts |
Posted - 12/19/2006 : 13:17:38 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Dr. Mabuse
quote:
Originally posted by GK Paul
Once again, I am open to apologies (thru private messages) for past personal attacks - but it doesn't look like they will ever come. It's their loss, because I might have some insight into their posts that would increase their awareness.
Respect is a two way street.
You have misrepresented Filthy, so we expect you to apologise for doing so. You don't want to seem hypocritical for demanding people apologise to you, then turn your back on people you yourself have wronged?
I don't see Filthy complaining about being misrepresented. If Filthy does think so, than he should "specifically" explain how he was. People really should let other people speak for themselves. |
"Something cannot come from nothing" -- Ken Tanaka - geologist
"The existence of a Being endowed with intelligence and wisdom is a necessary inference from a study of celestial mechanics" --Sir Isaac Newton
GK Paul |
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perrodetokio
Skeptic Friend
275 Posts |
Posted - 12/19/2006 : 13:23:38 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by GK Paul
quote:
Originally posted by moakley
quote:
Originally posted by GK Paul
... I don't believe the many writers in the bible were lying. They definitely had a perceptional experience that came from God.
If this is your criteria for knowing that the bible is the devinely inspired word of god, then you must also believe that Quran, Holy Book of Mormon, and many other such books are also devinely inspired. Otherwise, you would not have a consistent approach to determining the validity of such works, since your only evidence is that the book claims to be devinely inspired.
Jesus predicted false prophets in Mathew ch.7 vs. 15-20. He said you will know them by the fruit they bear. I would have to say there is some bad fruit coming out of the Middle East. He also said they look like sheep on the outside, but inside they are like ravenous wolves.
Excuse me? Do you know ALL the people in the middle east? Or just the governments and authorities? Because if it's the latter then I can tell you that most governments seem evil (without exception).
I like americans in general, I lived 5 years in Fort Lauderdale and made lots of really cool people who became friends of mine for over 10 years now! I lived 5 years in the UK (1 in Salisbury and 4 in London) and had a similar experience. Howerver, in the eyes of an argentinan: How do you think the American government is seen? Specially after they supported the perpetrators of a military coup overtrhowing (did I spell that right?) a democratically elected president and made 30000 argentinians "dissapear" (no to mention all the ones oficially murdered)!
Think twice before you accept propaganda as facts!
I'm not saying that there's no terrorism coming from the middle east (I am not THAT stupid), however it's commun enough for ANY government to "stretch" the thruth, specially during war or other crisis.
salud! |
"Yes I have a belief in a creator/God but do not know that he exists." Bill Scott
"They are still mosquitoes! They did not turn into whales or lizards or anything else. They are still mosquitoes!..." Bill Scott
"We should have millions of missing links or transition fossils showing a fish turning into a philosopher..." Bill Scott |
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