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GK Paul
Skeptic Friend
USA
306 Posts |
 Posted - 12/21/2006 : 05:15:35 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by GK Paul
quote:
Originally posted by Neurosis
quote:
Originally posted by GK Paul
Well I'm glad you admitted that a god or demon or a natural process are "equally good conjectures" even though you lean to natural processes (for some reason). But to be honest with you, I never did finish my line of thinking in my previous post because I was tired and it was a rather deep subject to go further when tired.
But if God or demon or natural processes are equally acceptable (as you agreed) for causing the universe and life, than it is more logical to believe an eternal "living" being is the originator of the universe because that universe contains life. And surely there is a much greater probability that an eternal "living" intelligent being created additional life than for a "non-living" non-intelligent natural process to produce life.
In other words it is more logical for life to come from life than for life to come from non-life. Therefore the belief in a Living Creator is more logical than the belief in non-living natural processes as the originator of the universe and ultimately life.
No. What he said was they were both equally scientifically provable. Not that they were equally probable. Bigfoot and unicorns and martians are all equally scienifically proovable, does that mean that you can believe in unicorns because bigfoot is not any more plausible?
And logically the god hypothesis fails. I think that has already been shown.
Filthy never said they were both equally scientifically provable. Filthy implied that they were equally good conjectures to explain the origin of the universe.
And there can only be two causes for the origin of the universe - An intelligent cause or an unintelligent cause. And if other people think their equally provable or equally good conjectures that's there right. But I maintain it is more logical to believe in the intelligent cause because it makes more sense that intelligence created additional intelligence than for non-intelligent matter to create intelligence.
Let's get away from the grade school mindset for awhile. Does anybody have any comments on the above paragraph that starts: "And there can only be... |
"Something cannot come from nothing" -- Ken Tanaka - geologist
"The existence of a Being endowed with intelligence and wisdom is a necessary inference from a study of celestial mechanics" --Sir Isaac Newton
GK Paul |
| Edited by - GK Paul on 12/21/2006 05:19:36 |
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moakley
SFN Regular
USA
1888 Posts |
Posted - 12/21/2006 : 05:57:08 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by GK Paul
quote:
Originally posted by GK Paul
And there can only be two causes for the origin of the universe - An intelligent cause or an unintelligent cause. And if other people think their equally provable or equally good conjectures that's there right. But I maintain it is more logical to believe in the intelligent cause because it makes more sense that intelligence created additional intelligence than for non-intelligent matter to create intelligence.
Let's get away from the grade school mindset for awhile. Does anybody have any comments on the above paragraph that starts: "And there can only be...
But that is only a statement of what you believe, and what you believe you can only support through faith. Faith is not a good basis for establishing truth. And, here again, you are confusing the creation of the universe with the evolution of intelligence. As far as the creation of the universe is concerned we really don't know what caused the Big Bang. Or what the state of matter was prior to the Big Bang. Why is it so hard for you to accept that we do not know and have no way of knowing? As far as intelligence is concerned it is an adaptation which gave our species a survival advantage.
Ok, now you can ignore this and go back to your God story. Since your faith is the only thing that matters for your Truth.
edited to fix quote |
Life is good
Philosophy is questions that may never be answered. Religion is answers that may never be questioned. -Anonymous |
| Edited by - moakley on 12/21/2006 05:58:06 |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 12/21/2006 : 06:46:42 [Permalink]
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quote:
"And there can only be...
Sorry GK, but there is no such thing in science. All scientific theories are left open-ended. There is always a chance that evidence will be found contrary to them For instance, the theory of evolution would go a long way toward the shitcan if someone were to discover the Devonian Bunny.
The theory of gravity might be refuted by the Rapture, eh? 
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist! 
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GeeMack
SFN Regular
USA
1093 Posts |
Posted - 12/21/2006 : 08:54:55 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by GK Paul...
Let's get away from the grade school mindset for awhile.
That would be grand, but really, how ironic coming from you, kid. You want an adult conversation? Apologize to everyone here for your grade school attitude, your constant lying, your childish attempts to manipulate the conversation by establishing conditions, your willful ignorance, your cowardice, and your outright refusal to answer pertinent questions. Then maybe people would accept your contribution to this discussion as if it were coming from someone with a modicum of maturity, from a young adult rather than a high school kid stuck in a grade school mindset. Or are you suggesting that other people should take a grown up approach here, yet tolerate your dishonesty, put up with your condescending smugness, and allow you to continue acting like a spoiled brat?
quote:
Does anybody have any comments on the above paragraph that starts: "And there can only be... [two causes for the origin of the universe - An intelligent cause or an unintelligent cause. And if other people think their equally provable or equally good conjectures that's there right. But I maintain it is more logical to believe in the intelligent cause because it makes more sense that intelligence created additional intelligence than for non-intelligent matter to create intelligence.]
As has already been mentioned several times in this conversation, the origin of the universe and the origin of life, intelligent or otherwise, are two completely different issues. Your refusal to understand, or even to accept that there is a distinction, is just one more example of your willful ignorance. Try this, little guy, repeat after me...
"The Big Bang theory of the origin of the universe is a totally separate issue from abiogenesis, the origin of life. So, since the origin of life is unrelated to the Big Bang theory, for the sake of an honest, mature discussion, I, GK Paul, will get away from the grade school mindset of continuing to equate the two." Grade school mindset, you say? Now that's rich, a classic example of the pot calling the kettle black. 
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26031 Posts |
Posted - 12/21/2006 : 09:02:08 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by GK Paul
Does anybody have any comments on the above paragraph that starts: "And there can only be...
It's already been discussed: there are far too many things that we know are true about the world that conflict with common sense and/or first impressions for "it makes more sense" to be a reliable indicator of truth. Plus, such an argument, being entirely subjective, is about as weak as it possibly could be. "God" doesn't make sense to me, so why would I agree with your assertions? |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Neurosis
SFN Regular
USA
675 Posts |
Posted - 12/21/2006 : 09:43:40 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by filthy
quote:
"And there can only be...
Sorry GK, but there is no such thing in science. All scientific theories are left open-ended. There is always a chance that evidence will be found contrary to them For instance, the theory of evolution would go a long way toward the shitcan if someone were to discover the Devonian Bunny.
The theory of gravity might be refuted by the Rapture, eh?
Actually filthy 'A' cannot equal not 'A'. Therefore, any intelligent cause is intelligent and non-intelligent is not. So he is right, but fails to realize that all possible intelligent causes are not equally plausible, nor is all non-intelligent causes, nor is either comparably equal.
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Facts! Pssh, you can prove anything even remotely true with facts.
- Homer Simpson
[God] is an infinite nothing from nowhere with less power over our universe than the secretary of agriculture.
- Prof. Frink
Lisa: Yes, but wouldn't you rather know the truth than to delude yourself for happiness?
Marge: Well... um.... [goes outside to jump on tampoline with Homer.] |
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Neurosis
SFN Regular
USA
675 Posts |
Posted - 12/21/2006 : 09:59:10 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by GK Paul
quote:
Originally posted by GK Paul
quote:
Originally posted by Neurosis
quote:
Originally posted by GK Paul
Well I'm glad you admitted that a god or demon or a natural process are "equally good conjectures" even though you lean to natural processes (for some reason). But to be honest with you, I never did finish my line of thinking in my previous post because I was tired and it was a rather deep subject to go further when tired.
But if God or demon or natural processes are equally acceptable (as you agreed) for causing the universe and life, than it is more logical to believe an eternal "living" being is the originator of the universe because that universe contains life. And surely there is a much greater probability that an eternal "living" intelligent being created additional life than for a "non-living" non-intelligent natural process to produce life.
In other words it is more logical for life to come from life than for life to come from non-life. Therefore the belief in a Living Creator is more logical than the belief in non-living natural processes as the originator of the universe and ultimately life.
No. What he said was they were both equally scientifically provable. Not that they were equally probable. Bigfoot and unicorns and martians are all equally scienifically proovable, does that mean that you can believe in unicorns because bigfoot is not any more plausible?
And logically the god hypothesis fails. I think that has already been shown.
Filthy never said they were both equally scientifically provable. Filthy implied that they were equally good conjectures to explain the origin of the universe.
And there can only be two causes for the origin of the universe - An intelligent cause or an unintelligent cause. And if other people think their equally provable or equally good conjectures that's there right. But I maintain it is more logical to believe in the intelligent cause because it makes more sense that intelligence created additional intelligence than for non-intelligent matter to create intelligence.
Let's get away from the grade school mindset for awhile. Does anybody have any comments on the above paragraph that starts: "And there can only be...
GK the point is not that intelligent causes are more or less sensible. What is important is that if intelligents (ours) needs a cause to create then also the intelligence (god's) that created it needs a cause.
Do you not see that if god is needed as an explaination, then god needs an explaination. That is the claim you need to refute. The only reason that complexity was brought up is because you claim that complexity needs a complex cause. We claim that simple causes, unrelated in nature fully to the result, creates said result. As in neither sodium nor chlorine have any properties of salt yet create salt when combined, and the atomic level of each is far simpler than the macro scale. So on and so forth.
Nobody skeptical or scientific should care about what helps them sleep at night. What sits better with them and their hopes desires, etc. Instead scientist interpret the raw hard unyeilding data for facts and truths that cannot be wished away. No doctor can say "I wish my patients did not have cancer and no cancer makes more sense to me." or "I wish that HIV did not cause AIDS and that a simpler cure like canola oil would solve the epidemic." NO. Instead, the data tells the tells and real skeptics accept those tales before tales without data to back them up. That is why we call your belief a fairy tale. Because you may as well claim a fairy told you how things were.
You have no evidence or provable position. You are shooting for a draw. If that doesn't curve your enthusiasm I don't know what would. If you intend to convert skeptics, you need some evidence because that is the language we speak. If you just want to ramble on and make a fool of yourself you can do that fairly easily without it.
Philisophical arguments about what you feel or think is a better explaination are available in the gumball machine and are just as unnecessary as those prizes they bunk with. |
Facts! Pssh, you can prove anything even remotely true with facts.
- Homer Simpson
[God] is an infinite nothing from nowhere with less power over our universe than the secretary of agriculture.
- Prof. Frink
Lisa: Yes, but wouldn't you rather know the truth than to delude yourself for happiness?
Marge: Well... um.... [goes outside to jump on tampoline with Homer.] |
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Denwash
New Member
USA
18 Posts |
Posted - 12/21/2006 : 12:45:58 [Permalink]
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I have been lurking and not posting on the forum for some time, and feel the need to post. There has been some serious flaming going on, (I can't say that most of it has been unjustified), but I think that one of the biggest issues has remained unadressed. GKPaul, your loyalty to your Faith is certainly impressive in the face of this onslaught. I don't happen to share it, but I can appreciate the steadfastness of adhering to your beliefs. (If that is truly your motivation) However, I do have to add that Faith (note capital "F") tends to be a very effective stop sign when searching for the truth. When faced with the question of what happened before the BB, scientists and critical thinkers tend to say "We don't know yet." - which implies another statement "But we are still trying to find out". With your Faith and religion telling you the answer, you have no motivation to continue to look for the truth of the matter. God was before the universe, and that is good enough for you. Since you feel that you have the answer, continued searching for more answers must seem like an enormous waste of time and energy to you. I imagine a scientist and a priest faced with a spinning piece of metal, in apparent defiance of gravity. The priest says (With apologies to Copernicus, etc.. I am generalizing) "God has suspended gravity in this place." Finit, no need to search any further, since to question God is the ultimate in hubris. The scientist may go on to discover the properties of electro-magnetism and superconductivity.
Any replies? |
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GK Paul
Skeptic Friend
USA
306 Posts |
Posted - 12/22/2006 : 03:02:45 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Denwash
I have been lurking and not posting on the forum for some time, and feel the need to post. There has been some serious flaming going on, (I can't say that most of it has been unjustified), but I think that one of the biggest issues has remained unadressed. GKPaul, your loyalty to your Faith is certainly impressive in the face of this onslaught. I don't happen to share it, but I can appreciate the steadfastness of adhering to your beliefs. (If that is truly your motivation) However, I do have to add that Faith (note capital "F") tends to be a very effective stop sign when searching for the truth. When faced with the question of what happened before the BB, scientists and critical thinkers tend to say "We don't know yet." - which implies another statement "But we are still trying to find out". With your Faith and religion telling you the answer, you have no motivation to continue to look for the truth of the matter. God was before the universe, and that is good enough for you. Since you feel that you have the answer, continued searching for more answers must seem like an enormous waste of time and energy to you. I imagine a scientist and a priest faced with a spinning piece of metal, in apparent defiance of gravity. The priest says (With apologies to Copernicus, etc.. I am generalizing) "God has suspended gravity in this place." Finit, no need to search any further, since to question God is the ultimate in hubris. The scientist may go on to discover the properties of electro-magnetism and superconductivity.
Any replies?
Well thank you Denwash for the partial compliment. I'll take what I can get I guess. My belief in an intelligent creator certainly puts me in the minority in here - even though once I step out my door I'm in the great majority. But minority or majority is irrelevant in a skeptic forum and that's the way it should be.
I understand what your saying about Faith, but Issac Newton's very strong faith in the Bible (he actually authored a book on the book of Daniel) didn't stop him from inventing calculus, or formulating the laws of gravity (which greatly influenced Einstein). And Carl Jung who has a bible verse on his tombsone professing a belief that Christ was divine, wasn't exactly known as someone who wasn't searching for the truth. So you don't have to stop studying God's great universe once you become a Christian.
Ken Tanaka, the geologist who I quote at the end of my posts is a strong believer in the Bible; and has done work on the geology of Mars and probably other planets (look him up on Google under Mars geology.
So being a Christian doesn't mean you have to stop looking for truth in the universe. I once remember reading a pope say that Christianity has nothing to fear from science. I believe it was John Paul.
And this is not scriptual, that I know of, but I once read that Billy Graham said that he believes we will do Godly work on other planets in the afterlife. I just thought I would say that as something of interest. What the heck the guy was friends or advisor to 11 US presidents. I realize the skeptics will go nuts on that one, but what the heck. |
"Something cannot come from nothing" -- Ken Tanaka - geologist
"The existence of a Being endowed with intelligence and wisdom is a necessary inference from a study of celestial mechanics" --Sir Isaac Newton
GK Paul |
| Edited by - GK Paul on 12/22/2006 05:43:40 |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 12/22/2006 : 04:15:28 [Permalink]
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Go nuts how? Why should an evangelist with a track record like Graham's be cause for alarm?
The Rev Billy is a very interesting man, and one of the few, completely honest evangelists. And his advice to those presidents was, for the most part anyway, pretty good.
It is said that his son, Franklin, got Bush off the booze, but I'm not at all sure the cure took.
But do you know what's really remarkable about Billy Graham? There's not a preacher in the world that wouldn't sell his mother into slavery for the chance to take over his ministry, and there's not a preacher in the world, outside of his family, that could hold it together. And I'm wondering how well that ministry will do after his death.
I like Billy Graham. Were I believer, I could follow him secure in the knowledge that I'd not be getting ripped off.
But now you are treading dangerously close to an Appeal to Authority, and that sort of argument just won't hold water.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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Zebra
Skeptic Friend
USA
354 Posts |
Posted - 12/23/2006 : 02:51:19 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by GK Paul
I understand what your saying about Faith, but Issac Newton's very strong faith in the Bible (he actually authored a book on the book of Daniel) didn't stop him from inventing calculus, or formulating the laws of gravity (which greatly influenced Einstein).
GK Paul, you've hit a pet peeve of mine. I'm usually not a biblical literalist, but on the spelling of "Isaac" I'll make an exception. One s, two a's. See Genesis 17:19, 17:21, 21:3, 22, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 31, 32:9, 35, 46, 48, 49:31, and 50:24. "Isaac" is so illustrious that he is also mentioned, and spelled the same way, in 11 other books of the Old Testament and 8 books of the New Testament, including the two (otherwise quite different) genealogies of Jesus Joseph in Matthew 1 and Luke 3.
Edited to add: The first time I read your post I thought you wrote that Isaac Newton "actually authored the book of Daniel". Nope, just a misread on my part! But somebody wrote, or edited, Daniel well after the time it was supposed to have been written... |
I think, you know, freedom means freedom for everyone* -Dick Cheney
*some restrictions may apply |
| Edited by - Zebra on 12/23/2006 02:57:07 |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 12/23/2006 : 03:24:20 [Permalink]
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And, to remind that everyone has blind spots, Sir Isaac was an alchemist who thought that turning base metals into gold worth study.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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pleco
SFN Addict
USA
2998 Posts |
Posted - 12/23/2006 : 05:59:50 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by filthy
And, to remind that everyone has blind spots, Sir Isaac was an alchemist who thought that turning base metals into gold worth study.
He was also very big into astrology, which seems to have went hand in hand with christianity until recently. |
by Filthy
The neo-con methane machine will soon be running at full fart. |
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ConsequentAtheist
SFN Regular
641 Posts |
Posted - 12/23/2006 : 07:29:53 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by filthy
However, I do have to add that Faith (note capital "F") tends to be a very effective stop sign when searching for the truth.
History suggests otherwise.
quote:
Originally posted by filthy
And, to remind that everyone has blind spots, Sir Isaac was an alchemist who thought that turning base metals into gold worth study.
It seems to me that framing that as a "blind spot" is more than a little anachronistic. |
For the philosophical naturalist, the rejection of supernaturalism is a case of "death by a thousand cuts." -- Barbara Forrest, Ph.D. |
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Ghost_Skeptic
SFN Regular
Canada
510 Posts |
Posted - 12/23/2006 : 08:06:49 [Permalink]
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GK Paul - you have still not responded to this
As an agnostic, I am open to the possibility that a "God" set off the big bang. Or it just happened.
However, what I see as completely absurd is the suggestion that a being capable of creating something as huge and magnificent as our Universe (which may be but one of many)could have any resemblence to the petty, malicous tyrant of the Old Testament (in particular).
G K Paul - your logic is this.
Something (a God) must have created the universe
Therefore your religion (Christianity) is true (and other religions ie Wicca, Budhism, etc. are false).
Even if the first premise is true, the second does not follow, not by a long way.
BTW do you still believe that the creation myth of a bunch of ignorant nomadic herdsmen from the middle east is a better explantation for the variety of life on earth than is the theory of evolution given that the former is avery poor fit to the data, while the latter is an excellent fit? |
"You can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink. / You can send a kid to college but you can't make him think." - B.B. King
History is made by stupid people - The Arrogant Worms
"The greater the ignorance the greater the dogmatism." - William Osler
"Religion is the natural home of the psychopath" - Pat Condell
"The day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the supreme being as his father in the womb of a virgin, will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerva in the brain of Jupiter" - Thomas Jefferson |
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