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Boron10
Religion Moderator
USA
1266 Posts |
 Posted - 11/03/2006 : 19:45:32 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by furshur
The Big Bang theory does not address what was before the big Bang. I think implicitly the theory assumes that there was no matter (actually no 'space') before the big bang. Space, energy and later matter, as the universe cooled, came into existance as a result of the big bang.
furshur, you are almost exactly right. Matter, it turns out, is simply a form of energy. Similarly, time is simply a form of space.
Thus (here's the mind-blowing concept): the phrase "before the big bang" has no real meaning. You are trying to ask what happened before time existed. It's like asking what is outside of the universe.
edited for format |
| Edited by - Boron10 on 11/03/2006 19:54:30 |
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McQ
Skeptic Friend
USA
258 Posts |
Posted - 11/03/2006 : 20:42:15 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Boron10
quote:
Originally posted by furshur
The Big Bang theory does not address what was before the big Bang. I think implicitly the theory assumes that there was no matter (actually no 'space') before the big bang. Space, energy and later matter, as the universe cooled, came into existance as a result of the big bang.
furshur, you are almost exactly right. Matter, it turns out, is simply a form of energy. Similarly, time is simply a form of space.
Thus (here's the mind-blowing concept): the phrase "before the big bang" has no real meaning. You are trying to ask what happened before time existed. It's like asking what is outside of the universe.
edited for format
Yeah, but try getting GK Paul to understand that! |
Elvis didn't do no drugs!
--Penn Gillette |
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Starman
SFN Regular
Sweden
1613 Posts |
Posted - 11/04/2006 : 00:38:45 [Permalink]
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- what happened before time existed
- what is outside of the universe
- getting GK Paul to understand
Heavy.... |
"Any religion that makes a form of torture into an icon that they worship seems to me a pretty sick sort of religion quite honestly"
-- Terry Jones |
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GK Paul
Skeptic Friend
USA
306 Posts |
Posted - 11/04/2006 : 02:59:26 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by moakley
quote:
Originally posted by GK Paul
Well congratulations to GeeMack and McQ. You've been added to my list of people I will ignore because of personal attacks made against me. The list now stands at 6 people. Mr. McQ your whacked comment is what allowed you on the list.
The bible says to love your enemy so there is really no hard feelings. It's just that the personal attacks are a distraction and interfere with logic and skeptical thinking. Good Luck
So instead of persevering in the face of a difficult situation you choose to forego your primary responsibility of spreading the Truth of which you are so certain. One has to ask, "Is this what Jesus would have you do?"
Jesus's main message was to love God and your neighbor. But even Jesus had and has His limits. That's why there was a few oveturned tables in the temple square. God is about love but your going to pay a price for disrespect either now or later.
Read the Old Testament. Its full of a God that doesn't pussyfoot around when it comes to disrespect. God is about Love but don't mess with Him. Thus saith the Lord. |
"Something cannot come from nothing" -- Ken Tanaka - geologist
"The existence of a Being endowed with intelligence and wisdom is a necessary inference from a study of celestial mechanics" --Sir Isaac Newton
GK Paul |
| Edited by - GK Paul on 11/04/2006 03:22:12 |
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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 11/04/2006 : 03:03:23 [Permalink]
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GK noted: quote:
Jesus's main message was to love God and your neighbor. But even Jesus had and has His limits. That's why there was a few oveturned tables in the temple square. God is about love but your going to pay a price for disrespect either now or later.
Oh, boy! Veiled threats! 
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“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 11/04/2006 : 04:23:27 [Permalink]
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I have read the Bible through a couple of times, although I admit that I skipped such tedium as the 'Begats' the second time through. No loss as they have only ever been of interest to such as Bishop Usher, if I've spelled that right, anyway. I found it to be a sort of a chronicle of a genocidal maniac worthy of any fantasy novel. Voldemort just can't hold a candle to this God fellow.
The book doesn't have much of an ending, though. You'd think that Jesus, or some other hero, would, after ascending to Heaven, take the evil God out in a desperate, hand-to-hand battle, and then make it with all the lady angels, but instead it closes with the demented ravings of a certifiable schizophrenic.
This then, is supposed to be the story and history of the cosmos, and a guide to worship? quote:
Jesus's main message was to love God and your neighbor. But even Jesus had and has His limits. That's why there was a few oveturned tables in the temple square. God is about love but your going to pay a price for disrespect either now or later.
That threat will only work with those who fear a myth. I've heard it many times before and find it more ridiculous with each delivery. I also find it to be the final refuge of the religiously deluded when faced with opposition armed with sound theory. The various Creationists often come up with it in discussions of the ToE.
Until and unless, GK, the existence of some sort of god(s) can be supported with hard evidence, and that/those God(s) actually give a rat's ass about the doings here on earth, the threat is as empty as G.W. Bush's cranium.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist! 
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McQ
Skeptic Friend
USA
258 Posts |
Posted - 11/04/2006 : 06:33:28 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by GK Paul
Jesus's main message was to love God and your neighbor. But even Jesus had and has His limits. That's why there was a few oveturned tables in the temple square. God is about love but your going to pay a price for disrespect either now or later.
Read the Old Testament. Its full of a God that doesn't pussyfoot around when it comes to disrespect. God is about Love but don't mess with Him. Thus saith the Lord.
Do I hear the desperate sounds of a last-gasp argument? Or was that the flushing sound of a feeble comeback going down the toilet?
Let me paraphrase it:
"You'll see! I'll show you! You just wait! You'll be sorry!"
Did I get that about right?
Come on GK Paul, you have to be able to do better than that.
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Elvis didn't do no drugs!
--Penn Gillette |
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pleco
SFN Addict
USA
2998 Posts |
Posted - 11/04/2006 : 07:13:47 [Permalink]
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My my, it is amazing to see how much GK Paul has changed over time:
The Past
quote:
God is not the Bible. The Bible just gives us minute glimpses of the Omnipotent, Omniscient and most important, the Loving God. If I come back into this forum, it won't be in any kind of a confrontational way. I'm seeing that get's nowhere.
I believe the God of Christianity is tremendously multifaceted. He even changed His mind once or twice when He was pleaded with by humans. The God of Christianity is mostly about Love.
Unlike the bible, the posts in this forum are 100% accurately recorded. So, what do you believe exactly? |
by Filthy
The neo-con methane machine will soon be running at full fart. |
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moakley
SFN Regular
USA
1888 Posts |
Posted - 11/06/2006 : 07:24:26 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by GK Paul
quote:
Originally posted by moakley
quote:
Originally posted by GK Paul
Well congratulations to GeeMack and McQ. You've been added to my list of people I will ignore because of personal attacks made against me. The list now stands at 6 people. Mr. McQ your whacked comment is what allowed you on the list.
The bible says to love your enemy so there is really no hard feelings. It's just that the personal attacks are a distraction and interfere with logic and skeptical thinking. Good Luck
So instead of persevering in the face of a difficult situation you choose to forego your primary responsibility of spreading the Truth of which you are so certain. One has to ask, "Is this what Jesus would have you do?"
Jesus's main message was to love God and your neighbor. But even Jesus had and has His limits. That's why there was a few oveturned tables in the temple square. God is about love but your going to pay a price for disrespect either now or later.
Read the Old Testament. Its full of a God that doesn't pussyfoot around when it comes to disrespect. God is about Love but don't mess with Him. Thus saith the Lord.
Read it. Put it down. Read it some more... Read some comparative mythologies. Though real to you, keep in mind that I consider Hell to be just another construct of your fabulous book. You must take great comfort in your belief.
Good Luck to you. |
Life is good
Philosophy is questions that may never be answered. Religion is answers that may never be questioned. -Anonymous |
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furshur
SFN Regular
USA
1536 Posts |
Posted - 11/06/2006 : 14:05:50 [Permalink]
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quote:
Read the Old Testament. Its full of a God that doesn't pussyfoot around when it comes to disrespect. God is about Love but don't mess with Him. Thus saith the Lord.
Boy I'll say. If you ticked God off in the old testament he would not only screw you but also your kids and grand kids and greatgrand kids.
The invention of hell in the new testament allowed the formation of a 'kinder gentler' God who no longer had to install fear into people by destroying the innocent lives of the offenders offspring, he could just kick your ass into hell forever.
Of course if I was the Devil and I wanted to piss off God I would make hell more fun than heaven. And when the time for appocolypse came I wouldn't show up - why would I it is already fortold that the devil loses.
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If I knew then what I know now then I would know more now than I know. |
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moakley
SFN Regular
USA
1888 Posts |
Posted - 11/07/2006 : 17:34:27 [Permalink]
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quote:
"In religion and politics people's beliefs and convictions are in almost every case gotten at second-hand, and without examination, from authorities who have not themselves examined the questions at issue but have taken them at second-hand from other non-examiners, whose opinions about them were not worth a brass farthing."
- Autobiography of Mark Twain
Probably why depth is not often found. |
Life is good
Philosophy is questions that may never be answered. Religion is answers that may never be questioned. -Anonymous |
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Cuneiformist
The Imperfectionist
USA
4955 Posts |
Posted - 11/07/2006 : 18:00:54 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by furshur
Of course if I was the Devil and I wanted to piss off God I would make hell more fun than heaven. And when the time for appocolypse came I wouldn't show up - why would I it is already fortold that the devil loses.
No, shit, furshur. I used to try and wrap my head around both these points when I was younger and never could resolve it. Satan-- Lucifer, whatever you want to call him-- obviously has access to, say, the Book of Revelation. And no doubt has some idea about Yahweh's omniscience and the like. So, if you're sure you're gonna lose in The End Times-- and if some punk human wrote about it after some 'shroom-induced vision-- why bother? Just make hell into a giant party inferno (all the cool people are there, anyhow) and say, er, to hell with it. |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26021 Posts |
Posted - 11/07/2006 : 22:20:55 [Permalink]
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Which is exactly the reason why Catholics consider "hell" to be a permanent separation from God, and not so much a physical place full of fire and pitchforks. And that, in turn, is why Catholics consider us poor atheists to really be in "hell on Earth" all the time.
If this is hell, it's not so bad. And it just ensures that if I were to somehow accept Christ, I'd be converting to Catholicism, and to hell (haha!) with the damned Protestants. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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chaloobi
SFN Regular
1620 Posts |
Posted - 11/08/2006 : 09:13:49 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by filthy
<snip>
The book doesn't have much of an ending, though. You'd think that Jesus, or some other hero, would, after ascending to Heaven, take the evil God out in a desperate, hand-to-hand battle, and then make it with all the lady angels, but instead it closes with the demented ravings of a certifiable schizophrenic.
That's because the gnostics lost. There was apparently a struggle in early Christianity between various schools of thought. The gnostics thought that the OT god, Yahweh, was actually a minor, evil deity, not THE god. But the faction that wanted to run the whole thing together, pretend that what is in the OT actually meshes well with the NT, won. That's why they tried to destroy all copies of texts like the gospel of Thomas and Judas, so that through history humanity would have no knowledge of the competing ideas. It also shows a bit of truth about the history of Christianity and what it really is - more of a human cultural construct than a divine one.
EDIT:
Regarding:
quote:
That threat will only work with those who fear a myth. I've heard it many times before and find it more ridiculous with each delivery. I also find it to be the final refuge of the religiously deluded when faced with opposition armed with sound theory. The various Creationists often come up with it in discussions of the ToE.
Not only that, said threat is entirely un-Chrisitian. Jesus' god was infinitely compassionate, loving and forgiving. What threat of eternal punishment would such a god EVER make or make good on? Said god also was a complete pacifist and taught that revenge was bad. How can anyone call themself a Christian and at the same time be satisfied that those who don't accept Jesus will be punished in Hell???? They are completely incompatible ideas.
EDIT: spelling ... |
-Chaloobi
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| Edited by - chaloobi on 11/08/2006 14:47:40 |
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chaloobi
SFN Regular
1620 Posts |
Posted - 11/08/2006 : 09:22:48 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Dave W.
Which is exactly the reason why Catholics consider "hell" to be a permanent separation from God, and not so much a physical place full of fire and pitchforks. And that, in turn, is why Catholics consider us poor atheists to really be in "hell on Earth" all the time.
If this is hell, it's not so bad. And it just ensures that if I were to somehow accept Christ, I'd be converting to Catholicism, and to hell (haha!) with the damned Protestants.
I second this. I was taught in parochial school that Satan and Hell did not exist, that those who did not accept Jesus would be faced with an eternity of separation from God. This takes care of the whole compassion and vengeance thing I was complaining about in the previous post, but the eternity part still doesn't sit well. What if you have a change of heart after you're dead and you DO want to embrace god? Why is it god will forgive you up until your death but not after? That point makes no sense and smacks of thinly veiled mechanisms for social control to me. |
-Chaloobi
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