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BigPapaSmurf
SFN Die Hard

3192 Posts

Posted - 11/08/2006 :  13:43:53  Show Profile Send BigPapaSmurf a Private Message
There goes the neighborhood, oh wait, never mind.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/15617830/

I guess thats the 'Official' up-yours from the new Palestinian government. I wonder how the public will support this as taking on the US directly is scarier than just the Zionists... Its not like we gave them much choice in the matter as we have totally isolated the elected goverment we asked for.

I bet they did this because they know the Dems will not allow Bush to do his thing in the Holy Land...

"...things I have neither seen nor experienced nor heard tell of from anybody else; things, what is more, that do not in fact exist and could not ever exist at all. So my readers must not believe a word I say." -Lucian on his book True History

"...They accept such things on faith alone, without any evidence. So if a fraudulent and cunning person who knows how to take advantage of a situation comes among them, he can make himself rich in a short time." -Lucian critical of early Christians c.166 AD From his book, De Morte Peregrini

Mycroft
Skeptic Friend

USA
427 Posts

Posted - 11/08/2006 :  23:45:43   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Mycroft a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by BigPapaSmurf
There goes the neighborhood, oh wait, never mind.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/15617830/

I guess thats the 'Official' up-yours from the new Palestinian government. I wonder how the public will support this as taking on the US directly is scarier than just the Zionists... Its not like we gave them much choice in the matter as we have totally isolated the elected goverment we asked for.

I bet they did this because they know the Dems will not allow Bush to do his thing in the Holy Land...



Wha...?!

Hamas has plenty of choice. They can:

1) Continue to exacerbate the suffering of the Palestinian people by thumbing their noses at the international community that insists at looking down at those who profess their goals are religiously inspired genocide.

2) Agree to set aside that goal, recognize Israel and its right to exist, agree to abide by agreements made with previous Palestinian governments and then reap the cornucopia of foreign aid that Europe and the United States will be stumbling over themselves to give, not to mention all that tax money being held by Israel.

3) Continue to thumb their noses at the Euro-pansies that just insist on less than barbaric behavior in their “partners”, but put a temporary stop to the Qassam rockets that draws Israeli intervention, then agree in principle that maybe sometime in the future they will consider changing their position on the destruction of Israel and might agree to abide by previous agreements, you know, like if they got something nice for doing so, and then just sit back and wait for the US and the Euros to convince themselves that Hamas said what they wanted them to say even though they were very careful and explicit in not saying that, and wait for the aid to creep back in while the UN, the US and everyone quietly pressures Israel to release their tax monies.

For years I've been watching this situation and the conventional wisdom from the “overly optimistic without any justification crowd” was that what needed to happen was for Hamas to be invited into the government, then they would get drunk on the power and prestige of being able to ride limousines everywhere while getting occasional audiences with foreign heads of state that they would just have to become more moderate in order to keep it all. It's too bad that religious fundamentalism just doesn't work like that. Religious fundamentalists get off on being unreasonable. They don't mind suffering. Martyrdom is cool to them. It doesn't matter if the religious fundamentalist is Islamic, Christian, Buddhist or Scientologist. It's religious. The same rules just don't apply to them.

Israel has the military might, but Hamas is in the drivers seat. It's Hamas that's going to write the future for good or for bad. Israel will do what it always does, which is this weird mixture of self-restraint punctuated by bouts of seemingly disproportionate response when they get fed up. Given enough time Israel will complete its plan of disengagement, and “Palestine” will be born with or without a governing body capable of doing something more than drive its people to self-destruction.
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HalfMooner
Dingaling

Philippines
15831 Posts

Posted - 11/09/2006 :  00:41:25   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send HalfMooner a Private Message
Damn you to Hell, Mycroft for putting me in this position! I actually largely have to agree with you on this, aside from the minor issue of the use of the term, "Euro-pansies."

I doubt we'll agree on this point, but I see Hamas as the Palestinians' analog of our NeoCons. They are cruisin' the Palestinians toward a bruisin'. Hopefully, the Palestinians will see that Hamas' extremism has already damaged, and will continue to damage, their cause. And things were this close to real peace between Israel and Palestine, just a few years ago.


Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive.
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Mycroft
Skeptic Friend

USA
427 Posts

Posted - 11/09/2006 :  01:47:02   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Mycroft a Private Message
Well we can't disagree on everything!

I can't really see Hamas as being an analogue of NeoCons. Right or wrong, NeoCons believe they're doing the world good.

Hamas is more like the 700 club, if the 700 club were mostly made up of young and incredibly violent thugs convinced they're playing a pivotal role in some apocalyptic end-of-times scenario leading towards the rapture. They're just that dangerous and just that easy to reason with.


Edited to add: Oh yeah, I meant the "Euro-pansies" to be tongue-in-cheek.
Edited by - Mycroft on 11/09/2006 01:59:30
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HalfMooner
Dingaling

Philippines
15831 Posts

Posted - 11/09/2006 :  01:59:01   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send HalfMooner a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Mycroft

Well we can't disagree on everything!

I can't really see Hamas as being an analogue of NeoCons. Right or wrong, NeoCons believe they're doing the world good.

Hamas is more like the 700 club, if the 700 club were mostly made up of young and incredibly violent thugs convinced they're playing a pivotal role in some apocalyptic end-of-times scenario leading towards the rapture. They're just that dangerous and just that easy to reason with.




"NeoCons believe they're doing the world good."

And this differs from Hamas in what way?

"Hamas is more like the 700 club, if the 700 club were mostly made up of young and incredibly violent thugs convinced they're playing a pivotal role in some apocalyptic end-of-times scenario leading towards the rapture. They're just that dangerous and just that easy to reason with."

True, most members of the 700 Club are probably not willing to get their own hands, or noses, bloody. So can we agree that Hamas is like the 700 Club, except with courage?


Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive.
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BigPapaSmurf
SFN Die Hard

3192 Posts

Posted - 11/09/2006 :  06:37:37   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send BigPapaSmurf a Private Message
You folks seem to think that recognising Isreal is an actual option for Hamas, they would be strung from the nearest tree if they did that. Not to mention that never recognising Isreal is basically everything they stand for and what got them elected. Not only would their people turn on them, the few allies they have would turn on them as well.

"...things I have neither seen nor experienced nor heard tell of from anybody else; things, what is more, that do not in fact exist and could not ever exist at all. So my readers must not believe a word I say." -Lucian on his book True History

"...They accept such things on faith alone, without any evidence. So if a fraudulent and cunning person who knows how to take advantage of a situation comes among them, he can make himself rich in a short time." -Lucian critical of early Christians c.166 AD From his book, De Morte Peregrini
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Original_Intent
SFN Regular

USA
609 Posts

Posted - 11/09/2006 :  06:46:10   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Original_Intent a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by HalfMooner

Damn you to Hell, Mycroft for putting me in this position! I actually largely have to agree with you on this, aside from the minor issue of the use of the term, "Euro-pansies."

I doubt we'll agree on this point, but I see Hamas as the Palestinians' analog of our NeoCons. They are cruisin' the Palestinians toward a bruisin'. Hopefully, the Palestinians will see that Hamas' extremism has already damaged, and will continue to damage, their cause. And things were this close to real peace between Israel and Palestine, just a few years ago.



Hamas was firing rockets and Israli tanks were running stuff over BEFORE they put Hamas in power.

There will be no peace there until the people fighting against the peace are rounded up and shot.

Peace
Joe
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Original_Intent
SFN Regular

USA
609 Posts

Posted - 11/09/2006 :  06:47:16   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Original_Intent a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by BigPapaSmurf

You folks seem to think that recognising Isreal is an actual option for Hamas, they would be strung from the nearest tree if they did that. Not to mention that never recognising Isreal is basically everything they stand for and what got them elected. Not only would their people turn on them, the few allies they have would turn on them as well.



And that too.......
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Dude
SFN Die Hard

USA
6891 Posts

Posted - 11/09/2006 :  07:28:44   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Dude a Private Message
The US needs to realize something about democracy.

You can't actively spread democracy. It is like a fragile plant, and the only thing you can do is try and nurture it along when you discover one occuring on its own.

I laughed my ass off when the Palestinians "elected" a Hamas majority to their government. We were all like, "Look! Elections in Palestine! Amazing!" Then the next day people were going, "Oh fuck, they elected Hamas."

That is what happens when you try and push democracy off on people who don't want it, or even really understand it.


Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson

"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin

Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth
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Mycroft
Skeptic Friend

USA
427 Posts

Posted - 11/09/2006 :  10:46:59   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Mycroft a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by BigPapaSmurf
You folks seem to think that recognising Isreal is an actual option for Hamas, they would be strung from the nearest tree if they did that. Not to mention that never recognising Isreal is basically everything they stand for and what got them elected. Not only would their people turn on them, the few allies they have would turn on them as well.



Yes, recognizing Israel *is* an option for Hamas.

Yes, there would be political consequences, nothing in that part of the world is easy, but to claim it's not an option is just making excuses for them and giving up on things ever changing.

BTW, general wisdon says that what got Hamas elected is not their extremism, but Fatah corruption. Not many Palestinians really want a world created by Hamas, but they were also fed up with Fatah siphoning off all their money and not doing squat to make their lives better.
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BigPapaSmurf
SFN Die Hard

3192 Posts

Posted - 11/09/2006 :  11:09:15   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send BigPapaSmurf a Private Message
Yeah and the US declaring itself a dictatorship *is* a possibility as well... So is Isreal packing up and moving to south Germany.

Blame Truman, hes dead and conveinent.

"...things I have neither seen nor experienced nor heard tell of from anybody else; things, what is more, that do not in fact exist and could not ever exist at all. So my readers must not believe a word I say." -Lucian on his book True History

"...They accept such things on faith alone, without any evidence. So if a fraudulent and cunning person who knows how to take advantage of a situation comes among them, he can make himself rich in a short time." -Lucian critical of early Christians c.166 AD From his book, De Morte Peregrini
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Mycroft
Skeptic Friend

USA
427 Posts

Posted - 11/09/2006 :  11:28:06   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Mycroft a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Dude
The US needs to realize something about democracy.

You can't actively spread democracy. It is like a fragile plant, and the only thing you can do is try and nurture it along when you discover one occuring on its own.

I laughed my ass off when the Palestinians "elected" a Hamas majority to their government. We were all like, "Look! Elections in Palestine! Amazing!" Then the next day people were going, "Oh fuck, they elected Hamas."

That is what happens when you try and push democracy off on people who don't want it, or even really understand it.


I wouldn't be so hard on the Palestinians as to claim they don't want or understand Democracy. They do understand it and want it. The problem is they live in circumstances that would be difficult for you and I to understand.

A good analogy would be Germany after Hitler seized power. The Nazis never got more than 16% of the vote (working from memory, please don't nit-pick anyone) but once Hitler did come into power, suddenly you started to see weird things like the Munich Bicycle club unanimously voting to change itself to the Nazi-Munich Bicycle club and donating all its funds to the Nazi party.

Why? Was it because Nazism suddenly caught on?

Partly, but mostly because Hitler was able to create an atmosphere of fear and intimidation. His enemies were not just being voted down, they were being arrested and sent to internment camps. At the same time, suddenly the German economy was picking up and people could afford to buy food again. That's a very powerful carrot/stick combination. The Munich Bicycle club wasn't 100% pro Nazi, but the ones that had their doubts knew better than to let them show. Anything that showed someone as being less than loyal could turn into problems at work, social problems, and ultimately even being labeled an enemy of the state.

It's not so different among Palestinians. It's not that Palestinians unanimously want to kill Jews and destroy Israel, it's that they've lived in a world shaped by Arafat and the PLO for more than 30 years. In this world, just like in Nazi Germany, the “politically correct” answer to any question is whatever trends to greater extremism. For a Palestinian to stand up and say something like, ”Hey, maybe we should put less effort into firing rockets at Jews and put some effort into filling these pot-holes in our roads.” can get him killed as a collaborator and child-molester.* When they vote, all the parties they vote for make the destruction of Israel as part of their platform. If they didn't, they wouldn't be political parties.

But while the man on the street may not have any real choices, their leadership does. From top-down they can vote for less extremism, they can vote to cooperate with Israel. Arafat and now Mahmoud Abbas have shown that.



* Edited to add: The child-molester label probably sounds as a strange non sequitur to those that don't follow the news from the Middle East very closely. Lately when word of the killing of a "collaborator" reaches the foreign press, the militants that organize the killing have also been labeling them as child-molesters, apparently in an effort to increase sympathy for their killing.
Edited by - Mycroft on 11/09/2006 11:37:22
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Mycroft
Skeptic Friend

USA
427 Posts

Posted - 11/09/2006 :  11:31:01   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Mycroft a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by BigPapaSmurf

Yeah and the US declaring itself a dictatorship *is* a possibility as well... So is Isreal packing up and moving to south Germany.

Blame Truman, hes dead and conveinent.



Let me ask you:

If you think Hamas is incapable of change, how should we deal with them?

How should Israel deal with them?
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BigPapaSmurf
SFN Die Hard

3192 Posts

Posted - 11/09/2006 :  14:13:25   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send BigPapaSmurf a Private Message
I never claimed to have an answer that anybody would like, personally I think Isreal should not exist, its creation was a mistake of ridiculous proportions.

"When the mushroom cloud is gone the battle for the holy crater begins..."
Who said that? somebody around here?

The answer? Either wipe ot Palestine Carthage style or pack up and leave.

"...things I have neither seen nor experienced nor heard tell of from anybody else; things, what is more, that do not in fact exist and could not ever exist at all. So my readers must not believe a word I say." -Lucian on his book True History

"...They accept such things on faith alone, without any evidence. So if a fraudulent and cunning person who knows how to take advantage of a situation comes among them, he can make himself rich in a short time." -Lucian critical of early Christians c.166 AD From his book, De Morte Peregrini
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moakley
SFN Regular

USA
1886 Posts

Posted - 11/09/2006 :  19:30:05   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send moakley a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by BigPapaSmurf

I never claimed to have an answer that anybody would like, personally I think Isreal should not exist, its creation was a mistake of ridiculous proportions.

"When the mushroom cloud is gone the battle for the holy crater begins..."
Who said that? somebody around here?

The answer? Either wipe ot Palestine Carthage style or pack up and leave.

Since notions of the sacred and holy lands are unlikely to change in our lifetimes, it appears that no one will be leaving voluntarily. Maybe reasonable people will demand a third option before the mushroom cloud. Whatever that option might be.

Life is good

Philosophy is questions that may never be answered. Religion is answers that may never be questioned. -Anonymous
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Mycroft
Skeptic Friend

USA
427 Posts

Posted - 11/09/2006 :  23:41:19   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Mycroft a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by BigPapaSmurf

I never claimed to have an answer that anybody would like, personally I think Isreal should not exist, its creation was a mistake of ridiculous proportions.

"When the mushroom cloud is gone the battle for the holy crater begins..."
Who said that? somebody around here?

The answer? Either wipe ot Palestine Carthage style or pack up and leave.


1) Israel does exist. Wishing something else happened 60 years ago really doesn't help anything. We have to deal with the world the way it is, how we wish things had happened is irrelevant.

2) I'm pretty sure that expecting Hamas to moderate its position is more likely and less extreme than expecting Israel to "pack up and leave" and is certainly much preferable to wiping out the Palestinians Carthage style.
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