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pleco
SFN Addict

USA
2996 Posts

Posted - 11/13/2006 :  14:53:16   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit pleco's Homepage Send pleco a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Starman
That is the majority of the voters and not the majority of the Americans which was my point and what I wrote.

There is also no reason to add Naders votes to Gores as they were not for Gore, the only possible alternative to Bush in that election.




I would argue that those that didn't vote do not get to be counted for or against anyone - as far as this is concerned, they do not exist. But I see what you are saying.

Also, I added Nader votes as anti-Bush. So, the majority of voters were against Bush (as opposed to pro-someone else).

by Filthy
The neo-con methane machine will soon be running at full fart.
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HalfMooner
Dingaling

Philippines
15831 Posts

Posted - 11/13/2006 :  15:08:25   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send HalfMooner a Private Message
Starman wrote:
quote:
That is the majority of the voters and not the majority of the Americans which was my point and what I wrote.

There is also no reason to add Naders votes to Gores as they were not for Gore, the only possible alternative to Bush in that election.
Indeed, Starman, adding the Nader votes to the Gore votes as essentially "anti-Bush" is both logical and is the conventional, bipartisan wisdom. Every analyst I've heard of recognizes that Nader voters are mostly to the political left of not only almost all Bush voters, but of most Gore voters. And Nader attacked Bush's policies even harder than he hit Gore's. Nader votes mostly would have been Gore votes, had Nader not run.

All the above is well-established political reasoning, widely accepted by people on both the right and left of the American political spectrum.

Then you imply that non-voters are somehow pro-Bush. This doesn't make any sense at all.

All "Americans" would include roughly 100,000,000 persons under the minimum voting age of 18, just for starters. Include all those adults who fail to register to vote, or fail to show up at the polls, convicted felons, the certified insane or mentally incompetent, and the numbers would grow enormously. These people didn't vote.

It makes no more sense to for you to assume they were not opposed to Bush than would for me to claim they were not opposed to Gore, or not opposed to Nader, for that matter. Only votes by voters are relevant.


Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive.
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Orwellingly Yurz
SFN Regular

USA
529 Posts

Posted - 11/13/2006 :  21:43:06   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Orwellingly Yurz a Private Message
YO! Everyone can read this, but I especially send this out to Mycroft and Starman after reading their comments about Rummy and the anti-nazi Germans. Mycroft: the guy who has married before the age of majority and lives in the state where I was born; and Starman: the man who lives in a more socialist state than we do here in the U.S., but seems to be more resonant with the soft-fascism of Bush in our beloved country, than Sweden, itself. (I've always thought maybe I'd like to live in Sweden, if they'd just move it a bit closer to the equator.) Also, Starman, Nat "King" Cole had the first "Nature Boy." "The greatest thing you'll ever know is just to love and be loved in return." I think we agree on that quote, though.

OY!

"The modern conservative...is engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy. That is the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness."
--John Kenneth Galbraith

If dogs run free
Then what must be,
Must be...
And that is all
--Bob Dylan

The neo-cons have gotten welfare for themselves down to a fine art.
--me

"The meek shall inherit the earth, but not the mineral rights."
--J. Paul Getty

"The great thing about Art isn't what it give us, but what we become through it."
--Oscar Wilde

"We have Art in order not to die of life."
--Albert Camus

"I cling like a miser to the freedom I lose when surrounded by an abundance of things."
--Albert Camus

"Experience is the name so many people give to their mistakes."
--Oscar Wilde
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Starman
SFN Regular

Sweden
1613 Posts

Posted - 11/14/2006 :  00:39:51   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Starman a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by HalfMooner

Indeed, Starman, adding the Nader votes to the Gore votes as essentially "anti-Bush" is both logical and is the conventional, bipartisan wisdom.
Yea, you and pleco are right here (and I was wrong). There is no reason to regard the Nader votes in 2000 as not being against Bush.

In 2004 however the insanity and incompetence of W was available for everyone to see. If you did not register to vote (insane system you got there), could not be bothered to vote or wasted your vote on a third party candidate, you did not oppose Bush second term.
(I'm fully aware most of you did oppose Bush and others like myself did not have the option.)
quote:
Originally posted by pleco

I would argue that those that didn't vote do not get to be counted for or against anyone - as far as this is concerned, they do not exist.
Thats right. They cant be counted as against Bush & Co. But the people are still there.
Not against Bush.
Not against the killing of maybe hundreds of thousands of iraqi civilians.
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Starman
SFN Regular

Sweden
1613 Posts

Posted - 11/14/2006 :  00:53:10   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Starman a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Orwellingly Yurz

Starman: the man who lives in a more socialist state than we do here in the U.S., but seems to be more resonant with the soft-fascism of Bush in our beloved country, than Sweden, itself. (I've always thought maybe I'd like to live in Sweden, if they'd just move it a bit closer to the equator.) Also, Starman, Nat "King" Cole had the first "Nature Boy." "The greatest thing you'll ever know is just to love and be loved in return." I think we agree on that quote, though.
First, thanks for the quote correction. I'll attribute it correctly.

Secondly, what are you talking about? What ever gave you the idea that I would prefer the US under Bush to Sweden?

Do you think that having social security, universal health care and a secular society makes Sweden a socialist state? I'll guess I'm happy to be a socialist then.


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HalfMooner
Dingaling

Philippines
15831 Posts

Posted - 11/14/2006 :  01:17:31   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send HalfMooner a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Starman

quote:
Originally posted by HalfMooner

Indeed, Starman, adding the Nader votes to the Gore votes as essentially "anti-Bush" is both logical and is the conventional, bipartisan wisdom.
Yea, you and pleco are right here (and I was wrong). There is no reason to regard the Nader votes in 2000 as not being against Bush.

In 2004 however the insanity and incompetence of W was available for everyone to see. If you did not register to vote (insane system you got there), could not be bothered to vote or wasted your vote on a third party candidate, you did not oppose Bush second term.
(I'm fully aware most of you did oppose Bush and others like myself did not have the option.)
quote:
Originally posted by pleco

I would argue that those that didn't vote do not get to be counted for or against anyone - as far as this is concerned, they do not exist.
Thats right. They cant be counted as against Bush & Co. But the people are still there.
Not against Bush.
Not against the killing of maybe hundreds of thousands of iraqi civilians.

We agree then, that, whatever the numbers, too many Americans supported Bush. We're changing that, though, as evidenced by the drubbing given the NeoCons in the late election.

I also ask that when judging us as a people, you please try to factor into your thinking the massive effect that 9/11's events had on our nation. Imagine, if you can, what a comparable attack upon Sweden would do to your own peoples' thinking.

Bush had the leadership of his nation firmly in his grasp after the 9/11 attacks. He could have used that power wisely and would have been seen as a great President by history and by the world. Instead, he exploited, twisted, and diverted the very real anger over 9/11 into an invasion of Iraq. Yet despite his tricks, more voted against him than for him in 2004. And now he's wrecked his Party, and couldn't get himself elected as Dog Catcher.

Try to understand that Bush was and is a radical, failed experiment in American governance. Once he's finally gone by 2009, you won't likely see his kind in power here again for a long, long time.


Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive.
Edited by - HalfMooner on 11/14/2006 01:21:07
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Starman
SFN Regular

Sweden
1613 Posts

Posted - 11/14/2006 :  02:31:43   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Starman a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by HalfMooner

I also ask that when judging us as a people, you please try to factor into your thinking the massive effect that 9/11's events had on our nation. Imagine, if you can, what a comparable attack upon Sweden would do to your own peoples' thinking.
I just wanted to show that it is very easy and convenient to blame the power of the Bush regime on voter fraud, but that is only a small part of the problem.

I know what the attack on your country did with my own and my peoples thinking. The US had vast amount of sympathy and support in the world after 9/11. Now almost all of it is gone.

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HalfMooner
Dingaling

Philippines
15831 Posts

Posted - 11/14/2006 :  02:41:14   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send HalfMooner a Private Message
Starman wrote:
quote:
I know what the attack on your country did with my own and my peoples thinking. The US had vast amount of sympathy and support in the world after 9/11. Now almost all of it is gone.
I fully agree with you.

People cried for America in streets all over the world. In Paris, they played our National Anthem. All that goodwill blown away in lies and senseless violence. I'd truly like to see Bush tried for his crimes one day, so long as we got to try him before turning him over to The Hague. We should get first crack at him!


Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive.
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Starman
SFN Regular

Sweden
1613 Posts

Posted - 11/14/2006 :  03:01:31   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Starman a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by HalfMooner

I'd truly like to see Bush tried for his crimes one day, so long as we got to try him before turning him over to The Hague. We should get first crack at him!
Hey, if he shows his sorry ass on this side of the pond, I will demand his immediate arrest.

But remember the US attitude to The Hauge.
Edited by - Starman on 11/14/2006 03:02:15
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HalfMooner
Dingaling

Philippines
15831 Posts

Posted - 11/14/2006 :  03:28:14   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send HalfMooner a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Starman

quote:
Originally posted by HalfMooner

I'd truly like to see Bush tried for his crimes one day, so long as we got to try him before turning him over to The Hague. We should get first crack at him!
Hey, if he shows his sorry ass on this side of the pond, I will demand his immediate arrest.

But remember the US attitude to The Hauge.

I'm glad you have such authority there! Me, I can't even get him arrested here.


Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive.
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