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Neurosis
SFN Regular
USA
675 Posts |
 Posted - 11/27/2006 : 18:17:43 [Permalink]
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| The end line above should be said as the tricks are for kids line in the cereal adds BTW. |
Facts! Pssh, you can prove anything even remotely true with facts.
- Homer Simpson
[God] is an infinite nothing from nowhere with less power over our universe than the secretary of agriculture.
- Prof. Frink
Lisa: Yes, but wouldn't you rather know the truth than to delude yourself for happiness?
Marge: Well... um.... [goes outside to jump on tampoline with Homer.] |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 11/27/2006 : 18:34:46 [Permalink]
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Bill "Liar for God" Scott said:
quote:
spontaneous abiogenesis, driven by random chance
To bad for you that only creationist kooks tag lines like "driven by random chance" onto things like abiogenesis and evolution.
You been reading more kook propaganda again Bill? Which other lair for god did you steal that line from?
No scientist, anywhere, thinks that abiogenesis was "driven by random chance".
Your argument is rejected for the pathetic strawman it is.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard
USA
4574 Posts |
Posted - 11/27/2006 : 18:38:40 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Neurosis
This is false so much in science history, but I will just say two words. Charles Dawkins.
Um, who? Do you maybe mean Charles Darwin or Richard Dawkins?
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"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman
"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26020 Posts |
Posted - 11/27/2006 : 19:28:41 [Permalink]
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The battle is assuredly not irrational vs. rational beliefs, either. A person who believes with all his heart that God exists, yet does nothing more in his life than work an average job and die penniless after a dozen years of calm retirement is invisible in the battle. He simply doesn't count. And a top-notch scientist who believes, as Ken Miller does, that by doing good, hard science he is helping to deduce how God made His Creation is, like it or not, on "our side."
Just having irrational beliefs isn't enough to get one into the battle or on the wrong side. It's how a person acts upon his beliefs (irrational or rational) that determines where the battle lines are truly drawn. Fanaticism in all its forms is what is, as Gorgo put it, dangerous. Faith isn't simply an on-or-off condition, but a sliding scale from, "gee, God probably won't like it much that I killed that hooker (shrug)" all the way up to "I AM CHRIST REINCARNATE." How faithful one must be to really be a fanatic - to act on one's faith in a dangeous manner - is not going to be an easy point to set.
And this doesn't just apply to the supernatural. Someone who is such a baseball fanatic that he can't wait to buy tickets and so starts weaving on the road because he's trying to order the tickets through a web-enabled cell phone presents an imminent danger to himself and others. Those who are less fanatical will at least pull off to the shoulder first, presenting less of a danger.
Even a fanaticism for rationalism has its downsides.
I'm wondering if perhaps there is something like a generic "fanatic mindset" that is the real problem here. I'm sure we've all heard about the one-time extremely devout Christian who "changes sides" and becomes a venom-spitting atheist (or vice versa). In such cases, the fanaticism doesn't go away, just the "target" of the fanaticism changes. This makes me think that fanaticism is perhaps a kind of addiction.
I wonder if, for example, the people who get clinically depressed after the last post-game Superbowl show has ended show the same sorts of MRI scans while watching a football game (any game) as a gambling addict would have while playing poker. And how similar are either of them to an MRI of, for example, Kent Hovind while he's doing his "lectures." If "addiction" is localizable in the brain, and if my hypothesis is correct, then all three should show similar patterns of brain activity while engaged with the target of their addiction. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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marfknox
SFN Die Hard
USA
3739 Posts |
Posted - 11/27/2006 : 19:33:23 [Permalink]
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| Is he even worth it any more at this point, guys? Whatever you say to him just goes in one ear and out the others as he repeats the same bs over and over again... |
"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong
Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13476 Posts |
Posted - 11/27/2006 : 20:40:42 [Permalink]
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quote:
Gorgo:
First, last, in-between, if they have ideas that are enemies of reality, then they have ideas that are enemies of reality. If they promote evolution against ID because Jesus said they ought to, then that idea is an enemy of reality.
Well, I very much doubt that Dr. Miller brings mention of Jesus to class with him. Nor is Jesus in his textbooks. He is a serious evolutionary biologist, know what I mean? So how does he qualify as an enemy of reality? He isn't telling you what you should believe, beyond the science that he does.
When Dr. Miller was on the stand at the Dover Pennsylvania trial he said he would hate to have his children be forced to choose between faith and science. A remark that is really an arrow through the heart of those Christian fundamentalists who think they have cornered the market on the truth. An enemy of reality you say?
Is it possible to become to be so aggressive in our rationality that we become blind to reality? Or at least develop a blind spot to at least one aspect of the human condition? At what point, in the process of pointing the rationalist finger at everyone who doesn't think exactly the way we want them to do we become irrational ourselves? Dr. Miller is fighting against Christian fundamentalist attacks on science as much as we are. More so since he has put himself out there in the line of fire in defense of science. An enemy of reality? Please. The reality is that we are in a battle against those who would shove their dogma down our throats and into our laws. I submit that it's irrational to think of Dr. Miller as an enemy of reality when he is one of those fighting on side of science and reason.
Whether there is a God or not is of little importance in the fight for a reasonable and rational world. What is important is that people conduct themselves in a reasonable and rational way.
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Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26020 Posts |
Posted - 11/27/2006 : 21:01:42 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by H. Humbert
quote:
Originally posted by Neurosis
This is false so much in science history, but I will just say two words. Charles Dawkins.
Um, who? Do you maybe mean Charles Darwin or Richard Dawkins?
I think it's this guy.  |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Neurosis
SFN Regular
USA
675 Posts |
Posted - 11/27/2006 : 21:09:21 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by H. Humbert
quote:
Originally posted by Neurosis
This is false so much in science history, but I will just say two words. Charles Dawkins.
Um, who? Do you maybe mean Charles Darwin or Richard Dawkins?
LOL!! I did not even know that I combined the names! The human mind is a confoundment! I meant of course Charles Darwin. Him being a Christian who despite his pre-concieved ideas about god still discovered Evolution. |
Facts! Pssh, you can prove anything even remotely true with facts.
- Homer Simpson
[God] is an infinite nothing from nowhere with less power over our universe than the secretary of agriculture.
- Prof. Frink
Lisa: Yes, but wouldn't you rather know the truth than to delude yourself for happiness?
Marge: Well... um.... [goes outside to jump on tampoline with Homer.] |
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Neurosis
SFN Regular
USA
675 Posts |
Posted - 11/27/2006 : 21:12:32 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Dave W.
I'm wondering if perhaps there is something like a generic "fanatic mindset" that is the real problem here. I'm sure we've all heard about the one-time extremely devout Christian who "changes sides" and becomes a venom-spitting atheist (or vice versa). In such cases, the fanaticism doesn't go away, just the "target" of the fanaticism changes. This makes me think that fanaticism is perhaps a kind of addiction.
I have often wondered the same thing. More and more of what I read in my medical text books and so forth says that we may be right in this hypothesis. |
Facts! Pssh, you can prove anything even remotely true with facts.
- Homer Simpson
[God] is an infinite nothing from nowhere with less power over our universe than the secretary of agriculture.
- Prof. Frink
Lisa: Yes, but wouldn't you rather know the truth than to delude yourself for happiness?
Marge: Well... um.... [goes outside to jump on tampoline with Homer.] |
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Neurosis
SFN Regular
USA
675 Posts |
Posted - 11/27/2006 : 22:11:33 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Kil
[quote]Whether there is a God or not is of little importance in the fight for a reasonable and rational world. What is important is that people conduct themselves in a reasonable and rational way.
This perfectly summarizes my position exactly. What people believe is less important than what they do. It is only when people claim that they can justify any course of action that affects others outside of themselves with a faith based belief (a FiBB) that idea, the idea that faith and intuition can give better insight (or any for that matter) into what is a good action to take or a good way to come down on one side of the issue or another, is a dangerous idea. It has been said that if a person is moral because of a belief in god or a belief in reason it is of little consequence to me so long as they are moral. But that is the issue itself. Morality is a human phenomenon and not a religious phenomenon. So long as it is understood that, whether god gave us morals or not, we do have them and can justify them empirically and rationally. |
Facts! Pssh, you can prove anything even remotely true with facts.
- Homer Simpson
[God] is an infinite nothing from nowhere with less power over our universe than the secretary of agriculture.
- Prof. Frink
Lisa: Yes, but wouldn't you rather know the truth than to delude yourself for happiness?
Marge: Well... um.... [goes outside to jump on tampoline with Homer.] |
| Edited by - Neurosis on 11/28/2006 01:03:43 |
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Ghost_Skeptic
SFN Regular
Canada
510 Posts |
Posted - 11/28/2006 : 01:54:30 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Neurosis
People sometimes say that (radical) Islam is the enemy and at least the radical christian right is not trying to blow us up. But that is unfair and short sighted. The radical Christian movement is not an ally against the radical Islam movement because both are dangerous in different ways. Even if one is not yet as great a threat (although I think it has reached that point personally).
quote:
Originally posted by Neurosis
Religion is probably not going away and neither is the religious people in our world. I am simply calling for the furthering of evidence based thinking. Religion can have its phylisophical ideas, but should not be allowed to effect public policy or our laws. No faith based idea should.
One of the things that brought the Neo-Cons to tenuous power in Canada was an unholy alliance of semi-radical Christians, Muslims, Hindus, Sihks etc. opposed to gay marriage. (the other was the corruption of Liberals under a previous previous prime minister) Fortunately, turfing gay marriage is a non-starter for a minority government and the Conservative party is managing to shoot themselves in the foot every other week.
Anyhow, the ultra-religous seem to have a common agenda - anti-gay, anti-abortion, anti-sex and anti-science. I can easily overlook the (to me) irrational beliefs of pro-science, pro-rights religous moderates. If they refraining from forcing their beliefs on me, why should I force my non-beliefs on them? |
"You can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink. / You can send a kid to college but you can't make him think." - B.B. King
History is made by stupid people - The Arrogant Worms
"The greater the ignorance the greater the dogmatism." - William Osler
"Religion is the natural home of the psychopath" - Pat Condell
"The day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the supreme being as his father in the womb of a virgin, will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerva in the brain of Jupiter" - Thomas Jefferson |
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Neurosis
SFN Regular
USA
675 Posts |
Posted - 11/28/2006 : 02:16:04 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Ghost_Skeptic
quote:
Originally posted by Neurosis
People sometimes say that (radical) Islam is the enemy and at least the radical christian right is not trying to blow us up. But that is unfair and short sighted. The radical Christian movement is not an ally against the radical Islam movement because both are dangerous in different ways. Even if one is not yet as great a threat (although I think it has reached that point personally).
quote:
Originally posted by Neurosis
Religion is probably not going away and neither is the religious people in our world. I am simply calling for the furthering of evidence based thinking. Religion can have its phylisophical ideas, but should not be allowed to effect public policy or our laws. No faith based idea should.
One of the things that brought the Neo-Cons to tenuous power in Canada was an unholy alliance of semi-radical Christians, Muslims, Hindus, Sihks etc. opposed to gay marriage. (the other was the corruption of Liberals under a previous previous prime minister) Fortunately, turfing gay marriage is a non-starter for a minority government and the Conservative party is managing to shoot themselves in the foot every other week.
Anyhow, the ultra-religous seem to have a common agenda - anti-gay, anti-abortion, anti-sex and anti-science. I can easily overlook the (to me) irrational beliefs of pro-science, pro-rights religous moderates. If they refraining from forcing their beliefs on me, why should I force my non-beliefs on them?
I am not forcing, and not advocating forcing, non belief on people. I am simply saying that if someone makes a foolish claim (no matter the claim, whether it be God commands the death of all homosexual individuals or, that aliens are controlling the world governments) they should be laughed at with equal zeal unless these claims have evidence. If we applied the same smile and nod policy to the reptilian advocates and the whole David Icke cult as we do to religions, then we may just have those people trying to advocate that we teach such drivel in our government classrooms. Tell me please what the difference is? |
Facts! Pssh, you can prove anything even remotely true with facts.
- Homer Simpson
[God] is an infinite nothing from nowhere with less power over our universe than the secretary of agriculture.
- Prof. Frink
Lisa: Yes, but wouldn't you rather know the truth than to delude yourself for happiness?
Marge: Well... um.... [goes outside to jump on tampoline with Homer.] |
| Edited by - Neurosis on 11/28/2006 02:16:34 |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 11/28/2006 : 03:16:23 [Permalink]
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| That's my point. If you don't act on what you say you believe, then do you really believe, or are you just saying what you need to say because that's what people do? Do these people really believe that the supernatural is real and available to them, or do they just kind of think there's some kind of fuzzy sort of nice fuzzy god somewhere that sort of wants them to do some fuzzy sort of kind of good? |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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ConsequentAtheist
SFN Regular
641 Posts |
Posted - 11/28/2006 : 05:50:30 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Gorgo
First, last, in-between, if they have ideas that are enemies of reality, then they have ideas that are enemies of reality.
"Enemies of reality"? Oh my!
Unevidenced ideas that conflict with tested theorems providing intersubjectively verifiable results should be rejected. |
For the philosophical naturalist, the rejection of supernaturalism is a case of "death by a thousand cuts." -- Barbara Forrest, Ph.D. |
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BigPapaSmurf
SFN Die Hard
3192 Posts |
Posted - 11/28/2006 : 06:51:51 [Permalink]
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In a mild defense of Bill, something Im loathed to do, abiogenesis could only have arisen by random chance (If it wasnt designed ), though not like Bill thinks.
Due to constant bombardment from space(heat and pressure) new and more complex compounds and proteins are continuosly created during the early planetoid phase. On our planet at some point a molocule was formed, which when split, would become two copies of itself in a manner similar to a DNA molocule. This molocule also had 'open ends' which allowed it and future versions of it to add more particles to the chain and thus become an 'evolovable' self replicating protein. Some of those new version copies were more likely to be copied due to chemical structure and some no doubt had structures which stopped splitting due to over-stability.
The appearance of outrageous improbability is only due to your reverse engineering of logic,
I flip a coin ten times, h, h, t, h, t, h, t, t, t, t
-what was the probability that I would flip that exact sequence? (1-1024) Does that in any way make the sequence special or is it just a result of many mundane events in a row?
If you look at it backwards it seems impossible, but any combination of a gargantuan number of events will result in an outcome which seems impossible/beyond improbable. Add this to the fact that our coins (atoms) have a 100 sides or more and the sequence seems even more improbable. |
"...things I have neither seen nor experienced nor heard tell of from anybody else; things, what is more, that do not in fact exist and could not ever exist at all. So my readers must not believe a word I say." -Lucian on his book True History
"...They accept such things on faith alone, without any evidence. So if a fraudulent and cunning person who knows how to take advantage of a situation comes among them, he can make himself rich in a short time." -Lucian critical of early Christians c.166 AD From his book, De Morte Peregrini |
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