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filthy
SFN Die Hard

USA
14408 Posts

Posted - 11/30/2006 :  04:24:31  Show Profile Send filthy a Private Message
Over the last several months, I've been reading of semi/sort'a/maybe plans for a "partial pullout" of troops from Iraq. As I am ex-military (enlisted), I find this idea half-assed to the point of outright alarming.

So ok, we take away some percentage of troops from the country; where does that leave the remainder? Up Shit Creek, that's where!

If I were an Iraqi "insurgent" of either Sunni or Shiia bent, I would be licking my chops at this idea. I would oil up my trusty, old Klashnikov and get ready to rumble, and as soon as the troop number lowered enough, I'd forget all about the current civil war and start attacking Americans on a much larger scale, confident that the Iraqi "army" could do nothing about it, and just might even join in the slaughter. I'd settle my differences with the opposing side of my religion after the invaders were either dead or long gone.

I don't understand. Am I missing something, here?




"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)

"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres


"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude

Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,

and Crypto-Communist!

Starman
SFN Regular

Sweden
1613 Posts

Posted - 11/30/2006 :  05:02:23   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Starman a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by filthy

So ok, we take away some percentage of troops from the country; where does that leave the remainder? Up Shit Creek, that's where!
I would suspect that the remaining US troops will have to stop exposing themselves, leave all work to the Iraqi "army" and remain as a reserve force in good defensive positions away from the civilian population.

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HalfMooner
Dingaling

Philippines
15831 Posts

Posted - 11/30/2006 :  05:07:33   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send HalfMooner a Private Message
Oh, you got it, all right. In fact, I think you nailed it, Fil. Everything's half-assed with these jerkwads:

1) Go in on the cheap with so few troops that it unduly endangers both invaders and invaded.

2) Occupy the most volatile country on earth with even less, demonstrating no concern for the security of the nation you have just overthrown.

3) When everything collapses into ethnic civil war due to the effects of 1 and 2 above, plan incremental force reductions.

Crazy. They should be planning for an emergency pullout of everyone all at once, to Kuwait and Kurdistan. But no. This is looking to end for the US in an even messier manner than did Vietnam. All this due to Rummy's idiotic abandonment of the Powell Doctrine.

And they now want to do it all wrong again, but in reverse order. Rummy's probably laughing. Bush doesn't give a shit -- he can stay home and safe as always, while others do the dying. Cowardly bastard.

(I have nothing against cowards, so long as they care for the lives of others as much as they care for their own.)

[Obsessive-compulsive Edit: Changed second item "2)" to "3)" ]


Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive.
Edited by - HalfMooner on 11/30/2006 16:07:09
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filthy
SFN Die Hard

USA
14408 Posts

Posted - 11/30/2006 :  09:02:24   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send filthy a Private Message
quote:
(I have nothing against cowards, so long as they care for the lives of others as much as they care for their own.)
Umm, yes....

But a coward, by the very definition, cares naught for anyone's life and limb save his own. As long as his ass is safe and secure, everyone else can simply bleed until they are dry.

How in the hell did we allow ourselves to get into such..., such an incredable... I scarcly have a word for it! Self-inflicted Gehenna?

Looking back over the last three+ years, I find myself appalled yet again that we let that, yes, cowardly bastard drag us into Iraq. Everyone knew that Saddam, while doubtless delighted that it happened, had nothing to do with 9-11. We went there for no better reason than to fluff Bush's arrogance and ego, and because of this, Osama yet runs free (as far as anyone knows for sure -- the pigfucker might be dead and good riddance).

"Stupidity got us into this; why won't it get us out?" -- Will Rogers





"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)

"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres


"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude

Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,

and Crypto-Communist!

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Bill scott
SFN Addict

USA
2103 Posts

Posted - 11/30/2006 :  09:25:53   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Bill scott a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by HalfMooner

Oh, you got it, all right. In fact, I think you nailed it, Fil. Everything's half-assed with these jerkwads:

1) Go in on the cheap with so few troops that it unduly endangers both invaders and invaded.

2) Occupy the most volatile country on earth with even less, demonstrating no concern for the security of the nation you have just overthrown.

2) When everything collapses into ethnic civil war due to the effects of 1 and 2 above, plan incremental force reductions.

Crazy. They should be planning for an emergency pullout of everyone all at once, to Kuwait and Kurdistan. But no. This is looking to end for the US in an even messier manner than did Vietnam. All this due to Rummy's idiotic abandonment of the Powell Doctrine.

And they now want to do it all wrong again, but in reverse order. Rummy's probably laughing. Bush doesn't give a shit -- he can stay home and safe as always, while others do the dying. Cowardly bastard.

(I have nothing against cowards, so long as they care for the lives of others as much as they care for their own.)





That was the first time I saw the Powell Doctrine. Thanks. I must say in hindsight of the results that the Rummy strategy has achieved Powell makes him look rather incompetent. In fact most of the Powell Doctrine many would consider just common sense. "If you break it you own it" is the Powell line I remember the most. And I would assume the one W wishes he would have paid a little more attention to. I remember after Gulf War One many criticized Bush 41 for not going into Baghdad and not removing Saddam. The fear of Civil war is what kept H.W. from invading. Good call.

"Lets get one thing clear, Bill. Science does make some assumptions." -perrodetokio-

"In the end as skeptics we must realize that there is no real knowledge, there is only what is most reasonable to believe." -Coelacanth-

The fact that humans do science is what causes errors in science. -Dave W.-

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filthy
SFN Die Hard

USA
14408 Posts

Posted - 11/30/2006 :  10:05:50   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send filthy a Private Message
quote:
That was the first time I saw the Powell Doctrine. Thanks. I must say in hindsight of the results that the Rummy strategy has achieved Powell makes him look rather incompetent. In fact most of the Powell Doctrine many would consider just common sense. "If you break it you own it" is the Powell line I remember the most. And I would assume the one W wishes he would have paid a little more attention to. I remember after Gulf War One many criticized Bush 41 for not going into Baghdad and not removing Saddam. The fear of Civil war is what kept H.W. from invading. Good call.
I agree, although I myself, was one of those who bitched about 41 not "finishing the job." these many years down the road, I find I was dead wrong.

How the hell do we get out?!




"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)

"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres


"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude

Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,

and Crypto-Communist!

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Bill scott
SFN Addict

USA
2103 Posts

Posted - 11/30/2006 :  11:18:36   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Bill scott a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by filthy

quote:
That was the first time I saw the Powell Doctrine. Thanks. I must say in hindsight of the results that the Rummy strategy has achieved Powell makes him look rather incompetent. In fact most of the Powell Doctrine many would consider just common sense. "If you break it you own it" is the Powell line I remember the most. And I would assume the one W wishes he would have paid a little more attention to. I remember after Gulf War One many criticized Bush 41 for not going into Baghdad and not removing Saddam. The fear of Civil war is what kept H.W. from invading. Good call.
I agree, although I myself, was one of those who bitched about 41 not "finishing the job." these many years down the road, I find I was dead wrong.

How the hell do we get out?!








I was against 41 going after Saddam based in large on Powell's concerns back then. Not sure if I just forgot about all that when I was in favor of invading in 03? But all of a sudden Powell looked like a pretty sharp cokie to me once again.

I wish a had an answer for the current mess. In hind-sight I never would have invaded.

"Lets get one thing clear, Bill. Science does make some assumptions." -perrodetokio-

"In the end as skeptics we must realize that there is no real knowledge, there is only what is most reasonable to believe." -Coelacanth-

The fact that humans do science is what causes errors in science. -Dave W.-

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Dude
SFN Die Hard

USA
6891 Posts

Posted - 11/30/2006 :  11:27:01   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Dude a Private Message
Bill said:
quote:
That was the first time I saw the Powell Doctrine. Thanks. I must say in hindsight of the results that the Rummy strategy has achieved Powell makes him look rather incompetent. In fact most of the Powell Doctrine many would consider just common sense. "If you break it you own it" is the Powell line I remember the most. And I would assume the one W wishes he would have paid a little more attention to. I remember after Gulf War One many criticized Bush 41 for not going into Baghdad and not removing Saddam. The fear of Civil war is what kept H.W. from invading. Good call.


Hindsight?

Did you live in a cave when H.W. was president?

Rumsfeld and Bush had FULL knowledge of the conswquences of invading Iraq. They were stupid enough to think they could do it for a small ammount of money and with a small ammount of troops. They were told this WOULD NOT BE THE CASE. The general who openly told them they couldn't do it like this WAS FIRED. Is it any wonder that the rest of the generals fell into line to protect their pensions and fufture political careers?

You make it seem like the political and cultural situation in Iraq was some unknown factor before the invasion Bill. It was common fucking knowledge. Well before they launched this war most of the people qualified to have an opinion told them that it would end up exactly as it is now.

To bad you, and the other religious people that are owned by the energy lobby, aren't capable of thinking for yourself. Maybe if you, the radical right voting base, had the ability to think critically we wouldn't have elected a moron to the chief execs job so he could appoint obviously stupid neocons to the important jobs.


Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson

"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin

Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth
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Bill scott
SFN Addict

USA
2103 Posts

Posted - 11/30/2006 :  11:51:13   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Bill scott a Private Message
Originally posted by Dude




quote:
Did you live in a cave when H.W. was president?

Rumsfeld and Bush had FULL knowledge of the conswquences of invading Iraq. They were stupid enough to think they could do it for a small ammount of money and with a small ammount of troops. They were told this WOULD NOT BE THE CASE. The general who openly told them they couldn't do it like this WAS FIRED. Is it any wonder that the rest of the generals fell into line to protect their pensions and fufture political careers?


Hey, I was not there when all this was discussed and planned out and people were fired and hired. When I say I supported invading I would be talking about no holds bare where we release the full straight of the US military to do it's job, which is to win wars. Powell talks about this in his piece. Also I would be basing my decision off of years of the Clinton white house and congressional dems wanting to preemptively strike Iraq, but in a pre 9/11 world the public support was not there. I also based my support on the fact that almost the entire congress voted to authorize the war. They had all the evidence, at least much more then I had. With such a bipartisan effort I trusted they were making the right decision.



quote:
You make it seem like the political and cultural situation in Iraq was some unknown factor before the invasion Bill. It was common fucking knowledge. Well before they launched this war most of the people qualified to have an opinion told them that it would end up exactly as it is now.



Maybe I would have changed my mind if I were Prez and all these people were talking to me.



quote:
To bad you, and the other religious people that are owned by the energy lobby, aren't capable of thinking for yourself. Maybe if you, the radical right voting base, had the ability to think critically we wouldn't have elected a moron to the chief execs job so he could appoint obviously stupid neocons to the important jobs


Would this include Hillary, JFK and all the other rightwing dems who voted for invasion?

"Lets get one thing clear, Bill. Science does make some assumptions." -perrodetokio-

"In the end as skeptics we must realize that there is no real knowledge, there is only what is most reasonable to believe." -Coelacanth-

The fact that humans do science is what causes errors in science. -Dave W.-

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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend

Sweden
9669 Posts

Posted - 11/30/2006 :  14:56:55   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Send Dr. Mabuse an ICQ Message Send Dr. Mabuse a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by filthy
How the hell do we get out?!


Triple your presence there, to stamp out any insurgency to a minimum. Build up a strong police force ethnically mixed and protect them from harm during education and initial employment. (In Sweden, police school is at least 3 year studies and I think one year practical before examination. This is not feasible but I hope you get my point... Good education, learn them to be able to act responsibly, not only how to maintain their weapons and favor their own ethnics).

Not until Iraq's police force and military is fully capable of holding their own, should American forces retreat.
The Geneva Convention is very clear that an invading force is responsible for civil order in the invaded country. Thus far, America has failed miserably.

All rebuilding must primarily be organized and done through locally employed work-force. The country is in ruins, and infrastructure has to be rebuilt. The unemployment shouldn't have to be as high as it is: All the idle hands makes for a lot of mischief. If they can instead work to provide for their family, and increase their standard of living, they will be less likely to mess it up.

Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3

"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse

Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder.
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend

Sweden
9669 Posts

Posted - 11/30/2006 :  15:02:18   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Send Dr. Mabuse an ICQ Message Send Dr. Mabuse a Private Message
Northern Iraq with its mostly Kurdish population needs to be protected. They are prospering by local standards, and should be able to serve as a good example of what progress can be made by cooperation rather than opposition. If Shias and Sunnies go to war, isolate the Kurds and let them form a nation of their own in Northern Iraq.

Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3

"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse

Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder.
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Neurosis
SFN Regular

USA
675 Posts

Posted - 11/30/2006 :  15:07:48   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Send Neurosis an AOL message Send Neurosis a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by filthy

quote:
That was the first time I saw the Powell Doctrine. Thanks. I must say in hindsight of the results that the Rummy strategy has achieved Powell makes him look rather incompetent. In fact most of the Powell Doctrine many would consider just common sense. "If you break it you own it" is the Powell line I remember the most. And I would assume the one W wishes he would have paid a little more attention to. I remember after Gulf War One many criticized Bush 41 for not going into Baghdad and not removing Saddam. The fear of Civil war is what kept H.W. from invading. Good call.
I agree, although I myself, was one of those who bitched about 41 not "finishing the job." these many years down the road, I find I was dead wrong.

How the hell do we get out?!







We could start be estabishing a win condition. The Admin has moved the goal posts around every week since we started. First it was to kill the terrorist, then to get the WMD's, now they have generalized all the way back to stabilizing the region. Well, we did make it unstable!!

Facts! Pssh, you can prove anything even remotely true with facts.
- Homer Simpson

[God] is an infinite nothing from nowhere with less power over our universe than the secretary of agriculture.
- Prof. Frink

Lisa: Yes, but wouldn't you rather know the truth than to delude yourself for happiness?
Marge: Well... um.... [goes outside to jump on tampoline with Homer.]
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend

Sweden
9669 Posts

Posted - 11/30/2006 :  15:10:09   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Send Dr. Mabuse an ICQ Message Send Dr. Mabuse a Private Message
The Powel Doctrine, quick analysis of Iraq:


1. Is a vital national security interest threatened? No.
2. Do we have a clear attainable objective? No.
3. Have the risks and costs been fully and frankly analyzed? No.
4. Have all other non-violent policy means been fully exhausted? Absolutely no.
5. Is there a plausible exit strategy to avoid endless entanglement? No.
6. Have the consequences of our action been fully considered? I can't say.
7. Is the action supported by the American people? I can't say.
8. Do we have genuine broad international support? No.

The congress OK:ed the invation of Afghanistan, and the International Community thought it was ok. But I don't know exactly what support the Iraq invation had among the American people, misled as many of them seemed to have been.

Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3

"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse

Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder.
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