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filthy
SFN Die Hard

USA
14408 Posts

Posted - 12/07/2006 :  04:16:51  Show Profile Send filthy a Private Message
quote:
It's been a rough season for the Christian right. Even for an eschatological movement, these are dark days. First came former Deputy Director of the Office of Faith-Based and Community Initiatives David Kuo's public admission that evangelicals were often derided as "nuts" and "goofy" within the inner sanctums of the Bush administration. Then, weeks before losing their shotgun seat in the 109th Congress, the booming voice of the National Association of Evangelicals, Ted Haggard, was silenced in a scandal involving a gay hooker, massage oils, methamphetamine, and a string of Denver hotel rooms booked under false names.

But even before all that hit the fundamentalist fan, the movement was contending with a quieter, more systemic crisis: functional Biblical illiteracy among the flock. That's right, religious conservatives aren't so religious, after all.

It has been remarked that a skeptic and/or atheist is more likely to have read the Bible through than most rank & file fundies. This is an unfortunate state of affairs indeed, but it has at last come to the attention of Dr. James Dobson, who is, understandably enough, somewhat dismayed and even a bit miffed about it. It is a sad commentary on Believers that so few know exactly what they are believing in.

But the good doctor, ever ready to take any situation by it's scriptural scrotum, is up to the task:
quote:
After a study revealed that less than 10 percent of evangelicals were Bible literate, James Dobson's Focus on the Family is desperately taking a two-day multimedia Bible boot camp on the road, selling "truth" for $179 a seat.

And thus will the Faith be saved!




"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)

"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres


"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude

Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,

and Crypto-Communist!


Edited by - filthy on 12/07/2006 04:20:25

HalfMooner
Dingaling

Philippines
15831 Posts

Posted - 12/07/2006 :  04:38:58   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send HalfMooner a Private Message
Amazing, isn't it? It just cracks me up to learn that the vast majority of the fundies are ignorant even about their own belief system. I fully expected them to be ignorant of science and history, but their ignorance of their own mythology is hilarious. I hadn't realized this about them, but it does make sense.

And leave it to flim-flammers like Dobson to see a money-making opportunity in this ignorance, while giving himself an opportunity to define the mythology in his own way.


Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive.
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pleco
SFN Addict

USA
2996 Posts

Posted - 12/07/2006 :  05:51:24   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit pleco's Homepage Send pleco a Private Message
Well, I'm sure Dobson doesn't want people reading the bible on their own...they need to be coached throught so all the errors and inconsistencies can be "explained." Otherwise, there will be even fewer believers.

by Filthy
The neo-con methane machine will soon be running at full fart.
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Neurosis
SFN Regular

USA
675 Posts

Posted - 12/07/2006 :  10:50:58   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Send Neurosis an AOL message Send Neurosis a Private Message
Well, the Catholics had it right to start with. "The comon folk don't need no lernin of dat bible buuks!"

If you are a bible reading christian it means you must believe all kinds of shit people do not want to believe. It is not that people are lazy in their faith, its that deep down they want to keep it, keep it own their own terms. Look at how many version of buy-bull there is to make it easier for the slow ones. Even still, people do not read it, instead that go to church and doz off saying amen when something prompts them. Then come home and read some trite by there favorite Christian translator.

Atheist read the bible because there is so much ammunition against Christianity in it. If you wanna give people a good atheist book, its definitely the best one.

Facts! Pssh, you can prove anything even remotely true with facts.
- Homer Simpson

[God] is an infinite nothing from nowhere with less power over our universe than the secretary of agriculture.
- Prof. Frink

Lisa: Yes, but wouldn't you rather know the truth than to delude yourself for happiness?
Marge: Well... um.... [goes outside to jump on tampoline with Homer.]
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byhisgrace88
Formerly "creation88"

USA
166 Posts

Posted - 12/07/2006 :  12:34:15   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Send byhisgrace88 an AOL message Send byhisgrace88 a Private Message
I am only making this post because I am very skeptic of skepticism, and the way that you portray yourself's as unbiased and free-thinking.

I am not here to defend Christian's lack of familiarity with the Bible. It is an area which desperately needs to be addressed. I have seen this lack of knowledge in action, and it is a sad thing.

I am not a huge James Dobson fan, but the way you are portraying his two day conference is ridiculous. You guys seem to have such a double standard for people who claim to not think things through, and not take things at face value. First of all, if you actually do research, tickets to the conference are not $179 a seat, they are $119 for one person, or $149 for a couple. So assuming you go as a couple, you are paying $74.50 a person, which is almost nothing for a two day conference. Especially a traveling conference.

It's hard to believe that a website who for months has been trying to send KIL to a $350 dollar conference, could be inconsistent enough, to critisize people who go to a conference that is $119 or less.

If you people are going to attempt to be "skeptics", then you have to be skeptics in everything. Not just the area's that fit your liberal, anti-religious agenda.

Indeed, if we consider the unblushing promises of reward and the staggering nature of the rewards promised in the Gospels, it would seem that Our Lord finds our desire, not too strong, but too weak. We are half-hearted creatures, fooling about with drink and sex and ambition when infinite joy is offered us, like an ignorant child who wants to go on making mud pies in a slum because he cannot imagine what is meant by the offer of a holiday at the sea. We are far too easily pleased.-- C.S. Lewis
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furshur
SFN Regular

USA
1536 Posts

Posted - 12/07/2006 :  12:46:09   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send furshur a Private Message
I don't think the point was the cost of the conference, it was the need for the conference that was so amusing.

I mean all you have to do is read 1 book. Heck there are alot of books your not permitted to read, so reading the ONE book wouldn't seem to be that much of a chore.




If I knew then what I know now then I would know more now than I know.
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Neurosis
SFN Regular

USA
675 Posts

Posted - 12/07/2006 :  14:05:14   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Send Neurosis an AOL message Send Neurosis a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by byhisgrace88

I am only making this post because I am very skeptic of skepticism, and the way that you portray yourself's as unbiased and free-thinking.

I am not here to defend Christian's lack of familiarity with the Bible. It is an area which desperately needs to be addressed. I have seen this lack of knowledge in action, and it is a sad thing.

I am not a huge James Dobson fan, but the way you are portraying his two day conference is ridiculous. You guys seem to have such a double standard for people who claim to not think things through, and not take things at face value. First of all, if you actually do research, tickets to the conference are not $179 a seat, they are $119 for one person, or $149 for a couple. So assuming you go as a couple, you are paying $74.50 a person, which is almost nothing for a two day conference. Especially a traveling conference.

It's hard to believe that a website who for months has been trying to send KIL to a $350 dollar conference, could be inconsistent enough, to critisize people who go to a conference that is $119 or less.

If you people are going to attempt to be "skeptics", then you have to be skeptics in everything. Not just the area's that fit your liberal, anti-religious agenda.



The point was not that it cost money or how much. It was that people can read. The conference is unnecessary. Everyone can get a bible for free practically (or really most of the time) and can just read it!

As for the skepticism, the bible is baloney. If you read it cover to cover you cannot help but come out with a contradictory picture of god. No matter how much apologetics try, it cannot be logically reconciled.

Example one: Leviticus 18:22
"Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination.

Bolding is mine. The word abomination literally means loathsome, hateful, wicked, or vile. As to leave a bad taste in ones mouth (some translate as to throw up or purge).

This is god speaking! Therefore there is no symbols or metaphores or easy way out. God says he hates homosexuality, but the thing is homosexuality is natural and not a choice as is some of the other "sins." Homosexuality is genetic and behavorial like all of the other traits we possess. Homosexuality is in nature. Paul tries to argue from nature against Homosexuality here but obviously does not know any more about nature than god who thinks bats are birds,

Lev. 11:13, 19 And these are they which ye shall have in abomination among the fowls...And the stork, the heron after her kind, and the lapwing, and the bat.

and unicorns and laviathons exist.

Job 39:9 Will the unicorn be willing to serve thee, or abide by thy crib?

See reference to leviathon


Unlike the others Leviathon cannot be explained away as translational errors because of the following traits

that is massive with scales, breathes fire and smoke (Job 41), and lives in the sea (Isaiah 27:1).

Also the word for leviathon comes from tomu meqaning "Twisted; coiled" or simply chaos. As opposed to behe meaning emptyness. In the creation story god creates everything from nothingness and chaos (behe and tomu). According to many other creation stories of the time god(s) created the world from a Chaos dragon called Leviathon, or some derivative. (see Secret Origins of the Bible by Tim Callahan, page 15-30)

Ignoring that last bit it cannot be reconciled that leviathon means whale or anything else, as it does not have those traits.

Also there is the manner of Creation, Adam and Eve, Slavery, the prophecies, and the ressurection accounts being varied etc.

* BTW: How do we know that slavery is wrong? Not because the bible says so. Actually, the bible condones slavery and even makes special provisions. No amount of hoo-haa can explain it away either as it is comparable to pre-civil war America. Contrary to popular film, most slave owners were good to their slave for that standard. In fact, most white men thought they were doing them a favor as they were obviously, as they supposed, inferior. Even the time excuse fails as god should not cater to mans level of bigotry. In fact, this illustrates a point. Man can redact the bible's moral because man is above those morals. Mankind is not slave to an ancient book full of baloney and can decide what is right and wrong itself. We already do. Why is it that you are not muslim? Because you have chosen to reject that moral set on your own morals.

As for the skepticism of skeptics. Hooray! and applause. You should be skeptical of other skeptics. Skepticism is about being skeptical critical and rational about ALL things. However, you should definitely not let your emotions do the talking or thinking. You are skeptical of every other religion than your own. Why? Because of emotional conviction and wishful thinking. If you wish to be a skeptic, then you must rise above such foolishness where evidence is available, and yes, necessary.

Facts! Pssh, you can prove anything even remotely true with facts.
- Homer Simpson

[God] is an infinite nothing from nowhere with less power over our universe than the secretary of agriculture.
- Prof. Frink

Lisa: Yes, but wouldn't you rather know the truth than to delude yourself for happiness?
Marge: Well... um.... [goes outside to jump on tampoline with Homer.]
Edited by - Neurosis on 12/07/2006 14:12:21
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Dave W.
Info Junkie

USA
26001 Posts

Posted - 12/07/2006 :  14:15:48   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Dave W.'s Homepage Send Dave W. a Private Message
Online Bible Literacy Test.

All the answers are run together, though, so if you click to see one, you'll likely see the next couple/few.

- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too.
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Neurosis
SFN Regular

USA
675 Posts

Posted - 12/07/2006 :  14:32:37   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Send Neurosis an AOL message Send Neurosis a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Dave W.

Online Bible Literacy Test.

All the answers are run together, though, so if you click to see one, you'll likely see the next couple/few.



I love how it says most conservative scholars agree. Duh! Conservative means to conserve the old traditions. By definition one must accept the old superstition to be conservative!

Facts! Pssh, you can prove anything even remotely true with facts.
- Homer Simpson

[God] is an infinite nothing from nowhere with less power over our universe than the secretary of agriculture.
- Prof. Frink

Lisa: Yes, but wouldn't you rather know the truth than to delude yourself for happiness?
Marge: Well... um.... [goes outside to jump on tampoline with Homer.]
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filthy
SFN Die Hard

USA
14408 Posts

Posted - 12/07/2006 :  14:41:44   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send filthy a Private Message
Hi C-88! Welcome back! Long time, no hear from....

When did I ever claim to be unbiased? I am certainly biased, as is everyone, one way or another.

Eh, Dobson is just another radio-show knuckle-dragger, scarcely worth the attention he receives. What i wonder about all of this is whether or not his seminar, with take-home DVDs, will increase Bible literacy amongst the folks in the pews. I rather doubt it. After all, they didn't take the time before, why should they now?





"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)

"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres


"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude

Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,

and Crypto-Communist!

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byhisgrace88
Formerly "creation88"

USA
166 Posts

Posted - 12/07/2006 :  14:47:55   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Send byhisgrace88 an AOL message Send byhisgrace88 a Private Message
I missed 7 of the questions. The Bible is clearly something that is supposed to be taught. For all of christian history preaching has been a key part of ministry, because not all people can read the Bible in the same way, as it is a complicated book. While there are many perversions of preaching, a faithful teacher breaks down a scripture to know what it meant originally, and what it meant to the original listeners, and then applies it to our lives. Nobody with an ounce of rational thought has ever said that an uneducated person who knows nothing about the Bible will be able to learn from it as effectively as a well trained theologian.

As for the prices of the conference, I was speaking to those accusing Dr.Dobson of viewing this as a money making opportunity.

For all the weak arguments about homosexuality, and laviathans; I'm not going to turn this into a debate on homosexuality. I have debated it before, and my opinion on it is clear. It does not make me closed minded that I don't want to turn it that way. I have studied it most likely as extensively as you have, and have come to a different conclusion, and I don't think that we would get anywhere if the debate went that direction. Laviathans on the other hand; a creature like this only wouldn't fit in if you are viewing it from your world view. From a christian world view however, dinosaurs would have co-exsisted with humans, meaning that there were many creatures we don't know about. Why not a laviathan.

I would like to put up this challenge. I believe that nobody here can find a significant contradiction in the Bible, and also I don't believe that anybody can give any geographical record that contradicts the Bible. There may be places that we have not found that the Bible mentions, but I don't believe that you could point to something that is not there though the Bible says it is.

I realize that you are all licking your chops thinking that I cornered myself, but one more clarification; when I say no contradiction, I mean something that would effect the message of the Bible. There is almost nobody alive who would say that the english Bible we hold is completely infallible. The only infallible scriptures were the original sciptures. So a translaion error does not count as a contradiction. There is no place in scripture where it says one things, and then says the opposite somewhere else, that can not be explained away relatively easily.

So that I am not swamped by a bunch of questions at once, I will try to explain the first 3 I recieve, and then if we wanted to keep going we could. Please, take your best shot!

Indeed, if we consider the unblushing promises of reward and the staggering nature of the rewards promised in the Gospels, it would seem that Our Lord finds our desire, not too strong, but too weak. We are half-hearted creatures, fooling about with drink and sex and ambition when infinite joy is offered us, like an ignorant child who wants to go on making mud pies in a slum because he cannot imagine what is meant by the offer of a holiday at the sea. We are far too easily pleased.-- C.S. Lewis
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pleco
SFN Addict

USA
2996 Posts

Posted - 12/07/2006 :  14:55:18   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit pleco's Homepage Send pleco a Private Message
quote:
Laviathans on the other hand; a creature like this only wouldn't fit in if you are viewing it from your world view. From a christian world view however, dinosaurs would have co-exsisted with humans, meaning that there were many creatures we don't know about. Why not a laviathan.


No, not from a christian view, just a creationist view. Not all christians (I would even venture to say "most do not") read genesis literally; they are able to accept scientific evidence for the physical world and understand that book for what it really is.

quote:
when I say no contradiction, I mean something that would effect the message of the Bible.


That is NOT the definition of a contradiction. You do not get a free pass on this.

Especially when you use the work "infallible" which means "incapable of failure or error".

Any contradiction, no matter how trivial, eliminates the adjective "infallible" from the description, and it doesn't matter if the "message" (whatever that means) is unaltered.

quote:
The only infallible scriptures were the original sciptures


So there is no point debating. Any contradiction given using KJV or any other english translation will be hand waved. The only scripture that will be accepted are the hebrew and greek, which no one here (I guess) can translate, and if they do translate to english, we are back at square one.

by Filthy
The neo-con methane machine will soon be running at full fart.
Edited by - pleco on 12/07/2006 15:05:02
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filthy
SFN Die Hard

USA
14408 Posts

Posted - 12/07/2006 :  15:00:05   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send filthy a Private Message
Hey Dave; neat test! I got perhaps a little better than 3/4 of it correct -- not too shabby for not having read the scriptures in a fair number of years.

Heh, when I first saw the link, I thought you might be running one of Landover's by us. That one is much better.




"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)

"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres


"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude

Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,

and Crypto-Communist!

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tomk80
SFN Regular

Netherlands
1278 Posts

Posted - 12/07/2006 :  15:07:54   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit tomk80's Homepage Send tomk80 a Private Message
Okay, the most significant thing I took out of this thread till now:
"behe" means emptyness? Do you have a source for this, since I never realized how appropriately named a certain ID-proponent was.

Tom

`Contrariwise,' continued Tweedledee, `if it was so, it might be; and if it were so, it would be; but as it isn't, it ain't. That's logic.'
-Through the Looking Glass by Lewis Caroll-
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byhisgrace88
Formerly "creation88"

USA
166 Posts

Posted - 12/07/2006 :  15:12:39   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Send byhisgrace88 an AOL message Send byhisgrace88 a Private Message
I fully admit that I have no sources for this, but I have heard from multiple places at different times that it's about 80% of Christians that would say they believe in creation. Creation and Christianity go hand in hand. If you are a Bible believing Christian,(which in my opinion is the only real kind) then creation is your only option. Though I don;t believe this blindly. I have studied as much as anybody here to come to my conclusions. I DO NOT live a blind faith. I have tested the Bible, and have found that it holds up to scrutiny.

Indeed, if we consider the unblushing promises of reward and the staggering nature of the rewards promised in the Gospels, it would seem that Our Lord finds our desire, not too strong, but too weak. We are half-hearted creatures, fooling about with drink and sex and ambition when infinite joy is offered us, like an ignorant child who wants to go on making mud pies in a slum because he cannot imagine what is meant by the offer of a holiday at the sea. We are far too easily pleased.-- C.S. Lewis
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Dave W.
Info Junkie

USA
26001 Posts

Posted - 12/07/2006 :  15:25:20   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Dave W.'s Homepage Send Dave W. a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by byhisgrace88

I would like to put up this challenge. I believe that nobody here can find a significant contradiction in the Bible...

...when I say no contradiction, I mean something that would effect the message of the Bible.
If "the message of the Bible" boils down to "have faith in Jesus as Lord and be saved," then of course you'll find nothing contradictory that could effect that in the Bible. Not even the "not everyone who calls my name will be saved" actually contradicts such a message. So your "challenge" may as well be to ask for someone to find a Bible verse that proves that God doesn't exist. A fair challenge is one that could plausibly be won. You've just set the rules in such a way that there is no plausible loss for you, a challenge which demonstrates absolutely nothing.
quote:
There is almost nobody alive who would say that the english Bible we hold is completely infallible.
On that point, you're simply wrong. There are thousands, if not millions, of pages of apology devoted to twisting logic and commonsense around in order to "prove" that there aren't any contradictions of any sort within the KJV. Judas hung himself, but Judas fell and burst open? No, according to the apologists, he hung himself, and then his dead, rotting corpse fell and burst. You won't find that "answer" any place in any version of the Bible, the apologists just made it up.
quote:
There is no place in scripture where it says one things, and then says the opposite somewhere else, that can not be explained away relatively easily.
Why not try to "explain it away" without making any statement not found in the Bible, or supported as truth by one or more Bible verses? No apologist has been able to do so yet.
quote:
...and also I don't believe that anybody can give any geographical record that contradicts the Bible.
The Earth does not have corners. Nor was it possible to see all the countries from a single mountain top when Jesus allegedly lived.

- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too.
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