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Bill scott
SFN Addict
USA
2103 Posts |
 Posted - 01/12/2007 : 07:22:55
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House Republicans yesterday declared "something fishy" about the major tuna company in House Speaker Nancy Pelosi's San Francisco district being exempted from the minimum-wage increase that Democrats approved this week.
There's something fishy going on here," said Rep. Patrick T. McHenry, North Carolina Republican.
During the House debate yesterday on stem-cell research, Mr. McHenry raised a parliamentary inquiry as to whether an amendment could be offered that would exempt American Samoa from stem-cell research, "just as it was for the minimum-wage bill."
A clearly perturbed Rep. Barney Frank, the Massachusetts Democrat who was presiding, cut off Mr. McHenry and shouted, "No, it would not be."
"So, the chair is saying I may not offer an amendment exempting American Samoa?" Mr. McHenry pressed.
"The gentleman is making a speech and will sustain," Mr. Frank shouted as he slammed his large wooden gavel against the rostrum.
http://washingtontimes.com/national/20070112-120720-2734r.htm
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"Lets get one thing clear, Bill. Science does make some assumptions." -perrodetokio-
"In the end as skeptics we must realize that there is no real knowledge, there is only what is most reasonable to believe." -Coelacanth-
The fact that humans do science is what causes errors in science. -Dave W.-
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Edited by - Bill scott on 01/12/2007 07:24:53
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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
 Posted - 01/12/2007 : 08:20:28 [Permalink]
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Your source is that wonderful, objective fascist Moonie paper, Washington Times, I see, Bill. Something indeed is fishy here. I'll have to track down the particulars of this set of WT distortions/lies later, as I need to get some rest for now.
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“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
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Original_Intent
SFN Regular
USA
609 Posts |
Posted - 01/12/2007 : 09:27:57 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by HalfMooner
Your source is that wonderful, objective fascist Moonie paper, Washington Times, I see, Bill. Something indeed is fishy here. I'll have to track down the particulars of this set of WT distortions/lies later, as I need to get some rest for now.
That's because the story isn't getting enough play mainstream.
Pelosi aids say she wasn't "lobbied" for the exemption. |
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marfknox
SFN Die Hard
USA
3739 Posts |
Posted - 01/12/2007 : 09:56:13 [Permalink]
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Halfmooner wrote: quote:
Your source is that wonderful, objective fascist Moonie paper, Washington Times, I see, Bill. Something indeed is fishy here. I'll have to track down the particulars of this set of WT distortions/lies later, as I need to get some rest for now.
Not very skeptical of you to jump to the conclusion that the story is false. I checked it out as much as I could during my lunch break here at school, and it seems to me that Bill is right - this is hypocrasy on the part of Pelosi and others and a result of powerful executives at Starkist meddling in politics for the sake of their own bottom line, regardless of how it affects workers.
I strongly encourage anyone to read this conversation, especially Congressman Faleomavaega's passionate statements about why the Minimum Wage Increase should include American Samoa: http://www.house.gov/list/press/as00_faleomavaega/increaseminwage.html
One thing does bug me:
From the original article: quote:
Some Republicans who voted in favor of the minimum-wage bill were particularly irritated to learn yesterday -- after their vote -- that the legislation did not include American Samoa.
This should make these complaining Republians look bad for apparently not knowing what was in the bill they voted for. I understand that they can't read every word of every bill, but they should employ lawyers and such to read every word and whose job it is to let them know if there is shit like this included.
Edited for mistakes. |
"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong
Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com
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| Edited by - marfknox on 01/12/2007 09:57:57 |
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Bill scott
SFN Addict
USA
2103 Posts |
Posted - 01/12/2007 : 14:23:04 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by HalfMooner
Your source is that wonderful, objective fascist Moonie paper, Washington Times, I see, Bill. Something indeed is fishy here. I'll have to track down the particulars of this set of WT distortions/lies later, as I need to get some rest for now.
I like how you say that the WT's is lying and dismiss them with a handwave before you even do your research. Try research first and then accusations second. |
"Lets get one thing clear, Bill. Science does make some assumptions." -perrodetokio-
"In the end as skeptics we must realize that there is no real knowledge, there is only what is most reasonable to believe." -Coelacanth-
The fact that humans do science is what causes errors in science. -Dave W.-
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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 01/12/2007 : 14:51:11 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by marfknox
Halfmooner wrote: quote:
Your source is that wonderful, objective fascist Moonie paper, Washington Times, I see, Bill. Something indeed is fishy here. I'll have to track down the particulars of this set of WT distortions/lies later, as I need to get some rest for now.
Not very skeptical of you to jump to the conclusion that the story is false. I checked it out as much as I could during my lunch break here at school, and it seems to me that Bill is right - this is hypocrasy on the part of Pelosi and others and a result of powerful executives at Starkist meddling in politics for the sake of their own bottom line, regardless of how it affects workers.
Well, I think that taking a default position that anything coming from the WT is a lie is fully consistent with skepticism -- almost an exemplar of it, considering that rag's bias. But as I said, I hadn't done my research yet. And now I will.
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“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 01/12/2007 : 15:47:26 [Permalink]
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After review: Yup, I agree. Leaving American Samoa out of the minimum wage bill does indeed reek. Smells almost Republican, in fact.
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“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
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Bill scott
SFN Addict
USA
2103 Posts |
Posted - 01/12/2007 : 18:17:19 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by HalfMooner
After review: Yup, I agree. Leaving American Samoa out of the minimum wage bill does indeed reek. Smells almost Republican, in fact.
Smells almost political you mean. Just admit that we have trouble coming from both sides of the isle and the loser is the American people. The dems blab on and on about how they are going to clean house and all we have is fishy story after fishy story with Ms. Pelosi and all you can say is, "this reeks, now back to the wicked pubs." Your obvious bias reeks, sir. |
"Lets get one thing clear, Bill. Science does make some assumptions." -perrodetokio-
"In the end as skeptics we must realize that there is no real knowledge, there is only what is most reasonable to believe." -Coelacanth-
The fact that humans do science is what causes errors in science. -Dave W.-
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Cuneiformist
The Imperfectionist
USA
4955 Posts |
Posted - 01/12/2007 : 18:52:55 [Permalink]
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The question is, is American Samoa (or other territories for that matter) always included in minimum wage bills. If so (and this seems unlikely), then indeed, something odd is going on. but if not, then the Washington Times and the Repugs its citing are just playing politics.
Indeed, if you go here, you'll see that the old bill shows that American Samoa has always been treated differently: quote:
(3) if such employee is employed in American Samoa, in lieu of the rate or rates provided by this subsection or subsection (b) of this section, not less than the applicable rate established by the Secretary of Labor in accordance with recommendations of a special industry committee or committees which he shall appoint pursuant to sections 205 and 208 of this title. The minimum wage rate thus established shall not exceed the rate prescribed in paragraph (1) of this subsection;
So all this grandstanding by the Times is just that. Imagine-- a right wing paper making shit up! |
| Edited by - Cuneiformist on 01/12/2007 18:54:43 |
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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 01/12/2007 : 19:18:17 [Permalink]
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Bill said:quote:
Smells almost political you mean. Just admit that we have trouble coming from both sides of the isle and the loser is the American people. The dems blab on and on about how they are going to clean house and all we have is fishy story after fishy story with Ms. Pelosi and all you can say is, "this reeks, now back to the wicked pubs." Your obvious bias reeks, sir.
Nope, I meant it as I said it: It smells Republican, as in rotten fish, corruption on a Tom Delay scale. But it looks like I was wrong, since Cune (thanks!) discovered the hidden deception of the WT, that American Samoa has traditionally been treated differently on this issue. (Which, I think, should finally be fixed.)
And I think that proves my original point (right, Marfknox?) that a default position of disbelief in the Washington Moonie Times is pretty sound skepticism. When Moonies and Neocons speak, you can tell they are lying by watching to see if their lips are moving. Likewise, the clue to knowing if something's a lie in the WT is to check if it's printed in black ink on white paper.
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“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
| Edited by - HalfMooner on 01/12/2007 19:19:29 |
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marfknox
SFN Die Hard
USA
3739 Posts |
Posted - 01/12/2007 : 23:51:37 [Permalink]
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Cune wrote: quote:
Indeed, if you go here, you'll see that the old bill shows that American Samoa has always been treated differently:
This additional information adds to the conversation, but it does not excuse the recent decision to exempt American Samoa. Why has American Samoa been treated differently in the past? If the old reason stinks, then the recent decision to continue exempting American Samoa isn't any less stinky, and Pelosi isn't any less guilty of giving in to cooperate interests for the sake of profits and political gain, not people.
And then Half concluded: quote:
Cune (thanks!) discovered the hidden deception of the WT, that American Samoa has traditionally been treated differently on this issue. (Which, I think, should finally be fixed.)
And I think that proves my original point (right, Marfknox?) that a default position of disbelief in the Washington Moonie Times is pretty sound skepticism. When Moonies and Neocons speak, you can tell they are lying by watching to see if their lips are moving. Likewise, the clue to knowing if something's a lie in the WT is to check if it's printed in black ink on white paper.
I'm sorry Half, but Bill is totally right about your bias stinking here. It is painfully obvious that your desire for the conservative/Republican side to be wrong and Pelosi/Democrats cleared is limiting your skeptical abilities. No lie was told by the article, and I firmly think you were wrong to assume so.
As far as I can tell, this whole thing stinks like cooperate meddling with politics purely for their own bottom line, and both Dems and Republicans are giving in. Indeed, as Bill put it: the loser is the American people. Period. |
"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong
Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com
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| Edited by - marfknox on 01/12/2007 23:52:28 |
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Cuneiformist
The Imperfectionist
USA
4955 Posts |
Posted - 01/13/2007 : 00:02:39 [Permalink]
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Rubbish, Marf. Look at it in context. The Times made it sound like American Samoa (AS) was always given the regualr minimum wage until Pelosi came along. It implied that it was only with a crooked Pelosi that AS was exempted from the federal minimum wage. The reality is quite different. In fact, AS has previously been exepted, and the new bill conforms to that. Pelosi was doing nothing different than was done over a decade ago (when the Republicans controlled Congress). Thus, it is almost impossible to imagine that the AS exemption is because of something that has to do with Pelosi's district.
The point is that the Times and the various sham-artist Republicans were making shit up to spin things their way. I called bullshit and, quite frankly, I'm right.
The question of why AS is exepmpt is entirely different. I have no idea why. Perhaps the standard of living in AS is far less than elsewhere. Or perhaps it's crooked politics. I don't know. But remember the point of Bill Scott's post: that there was "something fishy" about Pelosi and the minimum wage bill. It's RNC spin that rubes like Bill Scott buy into because the Moon Times and Rush tell them that it's true. |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 01/13/2007 : 00:10:49 [Permalink]
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The washington times is like FAUXNews.
They are not a credible source of info on any topic.
As for the minimum wage issue, yes American Samoa should absolutely be included.
But lets take a reality check. The US territories are different legal entities than a US state. Different laws apply to them, and federal laws don't always apply to them.
Bill's (and the WT's) bias should not be allowed to dominate this conversation. Blaming this inequity on democrats is ridiculous.
How about the reponsibility of legislators to actually understand the contents of a law before they vote on it? THAT is, IMO, a much more pressing issue than American Samoa not getting a min wage hike.
How can you be more outraged over a percieved inequity (that isn't even made into law yet!) than you are over the spoken admission of a republican legislator that he didn't know the content of a bill he was voting on? FFS Bill, learn to think.
Luckily for American Samoa the min wage bill has a chance to be modified in the senate. Maybe the republicans who didn't actually read the bill will get a chance to read it if it comes back to the house in an ammended version.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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marfknox
SFN Die Hard
USA
3739 Posts |
Posted - 01/13/2007 : 08:41:11 [Permalink]
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Cune wrote: quote:
it is almost impossible to imagine that the AS exemption is because of something that has to do with Pelosi's district.
I fully concede to this point. While the Times did not lie, they had a distinct conservative bias and distorted that aspect of the truth due to that bias.
However, I will point out that Democrats do the same thing in their own publications and in politics. I will also point out that Pelosi talks a talk which implies she and most Democrats are above such corruption, and she is full of shit. As Dude has just done, in my original post I also criticized the Republican critics of this bill for not knowing what the hell they voted for and then complaining when it wasn't exactly what they assumed. And I've agreed with Bill only in the sense that the fact that American Samoa's exemption is not good for the American people and both sides of the isle should stand up and say so.
I find general comments about the Washington Times's credibility dull and do not comment on that issue. |
"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong
Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com
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Boron10
Religion Moderator
USA
1266 Posts |
Posted - 01/13/2007 : 10:14:11 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Dude:
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The US territories are different legal entities than a US state. Different laws apply to them, and federal laws don't always apply to them.
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This is exactly right. Remember the trouble our good friends Mr. DeLay and Mr. Abramoff got in over something similar in the Northern Mariana Island of Saipan? |
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Cuneiformist
The Imperfectionist
USA
4955 Posts |
Posted - 01/13/2007 : 11:38:15 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by marfknox
I fully concede to this point. While the Times did not lie, they had a distinct conservative bias and distorted that aspect of the truth due to that bias.
However, I will point out that Democrats do the same thing in their own publications and in politics.
But you'd be hard pressed to find the same sorts of mainstream publications on the left as you do on the right. There's no left-wing equivalent to Fox. The standard Limbaugh-led cry that, for instance, the New York Times is some liberal bastion rings hollow after doing any serious investigation. If such media outlets really tried to slant news to the left, such canards as "Al Gore said he invented the internet" would never have gained any traction. While, for instance, the New York Times' editorial page does slant to the left (but it also includes several right-wing columnists), its news section is clearly a writing without a clear agenda. The same can be said for CNN. The same cannot be said for Fox or the Washington Times.
quote:
I will also point out that Pelosi talks a talk which implies she and most Democrats are above such corruption, and she is full of shit. As Dude has just done, in my original post I also criticized the Republican critics of this bill for not knowing what the hell they voted for and then complaining when it wasn't exactly what they assumed. And I've agreed with Bill only in the sense that the fact that American Samoa's exemption is not good for the American people and both sides of the isle should stand up and say so.
I find it difficult to imagine that the Democracts currently in power are anywhere near as corrupt as the tightly-controlled Republican Congress we've seen over the last 12 years. This may change once the current leadership settles in, but I'd like to give them the benefit of the doubt for now.
As for the question of American Samoa-- do we know what the standard of living is there? The US GDP per capita is ca. $40,000, but for American Samoa, it's more like $6,000. Perhaps there are economic reasons why the minimum wage there isn't set in the same way that it is for the 50 states. |
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