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Dude
SFN Die Hard

USA
6891 Posts

Posted - 01/11/2007 :  19:18:09  Show Profile Send Dude a Private Message
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/16573125/

Because, last time I checked, a consulate is sovereign territory.


Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson

"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin

Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth

Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend

Sweden
9666 Posts

Posted - 01/11/2007 :  19:39:53   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Send Dr. Mabuse an ICQ Message Send Dr. Mabuse a Private Message
Wow.

Not that is was unexpected or anything...
I just didn't think it'd happen so soon.

Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3

"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse

Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder.
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McQ
Skeptic Friend

USA
258 Posts

Posted - 01/11/2007 :  20:20:07   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send McQ a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Dr. Mabuse

Wow.

Not that is was unexpected or anything...
I just didn't think it'd happen so soon.



Well, why wait to do something stupid when you can just jump right in and get down to business?

And right in lock-step with it comes this bit of depressing news:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070112/ap_on_go_ca_st_pe/us_iraq_military


Elvis didn't do no drugs!
--Penn Gillette
Edited by - McQ on 01/11/2007 20:33:16
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend

Sweden
9666 Posts

Posted - 01/11/2007 :  20:52:22   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Send Dr. Mabuse an ICQ Message Send Dr. Mabuse a Private Message
Soon it'll get time to start drafting...

Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3

"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse

Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder.
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beskeptigal
SFN Die Hard

USA
3834 Posts

Posted - 01/11/2007 :  21:38:46   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send beskeptigal a Private Message
I think this was one of the biggest mistakes Bush has made so far. One can only wonder where this one is going.


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beskeptigal
SFN Die Hard

USA
3834 Posts

Posted - 01/11/2007 :  21:41:34   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send beskeptigal a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by McQ

...

And right in lock-step with it comes this bit of depressing news:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070112/ap_on_go_ca_st_pe/us_iraq_military



Two words: Catch 22.


Edited by - beskeptigal on 01/11/2007 21:41:58
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furshur
SFN Regular

USA
1536 Posts

Posted - 01/11/2007 :  21:56:07   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send furshur a Private Message
quote:
beskeptigal said:
I think this was one of the biggest mistakes Bush has made so far.
You may be right, but with all of the mistakes it is so hard to pick the biggest one. The dissregard Bush has for law (both national and international) is unbelievable.




If I knew then what I know now then I would know more now than I know.
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Original_Intent
SFN Regular

USA
609 Posts

Posted - 01/11/2007 :  22:25:48   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Original_Intent a Private Message
I have more then a few questions on this new development myself.

First and foremost, was it an actual embassy? That would be soveriegn, but a "diplomatic mission" is not as far as I know.
Second. If it was an attack on an embassy, that would be an act of war, yet not a peep out of Congress on it. I heard about it early this (Thursday) AM.
Third. Apparently there was some tension over the deal with the US and the Kurds. Kurds helping Iranians? Not since the 16th century I don't think...... Is there a deal? Are they trying to piss the Turks off?

A million questions, and Czar Putin to think about too....

Peace
Joe
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Neurosis
SFN Regular

USA
675 Posts

Posted - 01/11/2007 :  23:24:24   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Send Neurosis an AOL message Send Neurosis a Private Message
To hell, to hell in a handbasket!

Facts! Pssh, you can prove anything even remotely true with facts.
- Homer Simpson

[God] is an infinite nothing from nowhere with less power over our universe than the secretary of agriculture.
- Prof. Frink

Lisa: Yes, but wouldn't you rather know the truth than to delude yourself for happiness?
Marge: Well... um.... [goes outside to jump on tampoline with Homer.]
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Dude
SFN Die Hard

USA
6891 Posts

Posted - 01/12/2007 :  00:57:18   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Dude a Private Message
beskeptigal said:
quote:
I think this was one of the biggest mistakes Bush has made so far. One can only wonder where this one is going.



He is trying to provoke Iran into taking action, then he can use that as an excuse for extensive bombing of Iran to shut down their nuclear power stuff.

O.I. asked:
quote:
First and foremost, was it an actual embassy? That would be soveriegn, but a "diplomatic mission" is not as far as I know.
Second. If it was an attack on an embassy, that would be an act of war, yet not a peep out of Congress on it.


A consulate is a subordinate office of an embassy. It is still considered sovereign territory, as is the embassy itself. The diplomats who work in them are granted immunity, subject to the same rules as the people in the actual embassy.

Attacking a consulate is the same thing as attacking an embassy.

No peep from congress because they are to busy making speeches about how they disagree with Bush's speech.


Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson

"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin

Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth
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HalfMooner
Dingaling

Philippines
15831 Posts

Posted - 01/12/2007 :  06:40:44   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send HalfMooner a Private Message
Nope. Senators are indeed weighing in on this:
quote:
WASHINGTON (CNN) -- President Bush's warnings to Iran and Syria to not interfere in Iraq and the arrest of six Iranians in Iraq by U.S. troops raised eyebrows Thursday on Capitol Hill, where senators warned Bush against widening the nearly four-year-old war.

Sen. Joseph Biden, the chairman of the Senate Foreign Relations Committee, warned Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice that Bush did not have the authority to send U.S. troops on cross-border raids.

"I believe the present authorization granted the president to use force in Iraq does not cover that, and he does need congressional authority to do that," Biden, D-Delaware, said during a Thursday hearing on Iraq. "I just want to set that marker."

. . .


On a personal side-note, it should be interesting to see the Iranian reaction to (an alleged) violation of the sanctity of their diplomats and diplomatic turf. This should be classic hypocrisy. Doesn't anyone remember the Iranian take-over of the American Embassy and the long-term kidnapping of US diplomats in Tehran?
quote:
The Iran hostage crisis was a diplomatic crisis lasting from November 4, 1979 until January 20, 1981. The situation involved members of the "Muslim Student Followers of the Imam's Line," student proxies of the new Iranian regime, holding 63 diplomats and 3 additional US citizens hostage inside the American Diplomatic mission in Tehran, Iran.

. . .
The Iranian fundies sure do, and celebrate it all the time as though it was their finest hour. This latest event doesn't even compare, frankly.

Edited to add: I'll repeat my suggestion here, that the way we could see in advance a serious intention to invade Iran, would be through the sudden, unexplained resignations of many top US generals. They, if not the Bush idiot team, know that invading a country, one that's three times the size and population of the one we already have proved we can't handle, is not militarily possible.



Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive.
Edited by - HalfMooner on 01/12/2007 07:16:16
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Original_Intent
SFN Regular

USA
609 Posts

Posted - 01/12/2007 :  07:35:05   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Original_Intent a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Dude

O.I. asked:
quote:
First and foremost, was it an actual embassy? That would be soveriegn, but a "diplomatic mission" is not as far as I know.
Second. If it was an attack on an embassy, that would be an act of war, yet not a peep out of Congress on it.


A consulate is a subordinate office of an embassy. It is still considered sovereign territory, as is the embassy itself. The diplomats who work in them are granted immunity, subject to the same rules as the people in the actual embassy.

Attacking a consulate is the same thing as attacking an embassy.




Alright, not to nit-pick or try to argue, but with sincere intrest in the knowledge: I know Iran and Iraq have opened up diplomatic relations lately, but has thei actually been an embassy opened for the consulate to be attached too?

Peace
Joe
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Original_Intent
SFN Regular

USA
609 Posts

Posted - 01/12/2007 :  07:47:21   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Original_Intent a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by HalfMooner

Nope. Senators are indeed weighing in on this:
quote:
WASHINGTON (CNN) -- President Bush's warnings to Iran and Syria to not interfere in Iraq and the arrest of six Iranians in Iraq by U.S. troops raised eyebrows Thursday on Capitol Hill, where senators warned Bush against widening the nearly four-year-old war.

Sen. Joseph Biden, the chairman of the Senate Foreign Relations Committee, warned Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice that Bush did not have the authority to send U.S. troops on cross-border raids.

"I believe the present authorization granted the president to use force in Iraq does not cover that, and he does need congressional authority to do that," Biden, D-Delaware, said during a Thursday hearing on Iraq. "I just want to set that marker."

. . .


On a personal side-note, it should be interesting to see the Iranian reaction to (an alleged) violation of the sanctity of their diplomats and diplomatic turf. This should be classic hypocrisy. Doesn't anyone remember the Iranian take-over of the American Embassy and the long-term kidnapping of US diplomats in Tehran?
quote:
The Iran hostage crisis was a diplomatic crisis lasting from November 4, 1979 until January 20, 1981. The situation involved members of the "Muslim Student Followers of the Imam's Line," student proxies of the new Iranian regime, holding 63 diplomats and 3 additional US citizens hostage inside the American Diplomatic mission in Tehran, Iran.

. . .
The Iranian fundies sure do, and celebrate it all the time as though it was their finest hour. This latest event doesn't even compare, frankly.

Edited to add: I'll repeat my suggestion here, that the way we could see in advance a serious intention to invade Iran, would be through the sudden, unexplained resignations of many top US generals. They, if not the Bush idiot team, know that invading a country, one that's three times the size and population of the one we already have proved we can't handle, is not militarily possible.





If, in fact, we did perpetrate an act of war, then this is worse then not weighing in at all.

Now I always have had a difirent view of things that is not PC, more OT or Michavellian. War is ugly. horrible, and at times neccessary. People die, not just soldiers, but men, women, children, babies...

The only thing wore then war is putting off a war that needs to be. The war is here, we are just ignoring it, and letting the blood-debt gather intrest. They knew how to fight a war in WWII. It was ugly, but they ended it.

They also know how to rebuild after a war. But come on, Iraq is hardly a war. Had it been done correctly, there would be far fewer Allied dead, and many, many, more dead scumbags.

The next time the militia in Iraq, Hamas, Hezbolah, or any other group gets together to celebrate.... fire-bomb them.

Peace
Joe
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pleco
SFN Addict

USA
2996 Posts

Posted - 01/12/2007 :  08:03:01   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit pleco's Homepage Send pleco a Private Message
quote:
The next time the militia in Iraq, Hamas, Hezbolah, or any other group gets together to celebrate.... fire-bomb them.


You know, I always thought that - when I see these huge gatherings of militants (at a funeral, etc.) - it would make sense to me to strike right then and there. You would get the leaders, the followers - at the very least they would not gather in huge numbers for the world's TV cameras.

I'm not an advocate of any violence whatsoever, but if I were this would be "logical". Of course, there would be backlash, but as we all know - war is hell.

by Filthy
The neo-con methane machine will soon be running at full fart.
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Original_Intent
SFN Regular

USA
609 Posts

Posted - 01/12/2007 :  08:52:42   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Original_Intent a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Dude


O.I. asked:
quote:
First and foremost, was it an actual embassy? That would be soveriegn, but a "diplomatic mission" is not as far as I know.
Second. If it was an attack on an embassy, that would be an act of war, yet not a peep out of Congress on it.


A consulate is a subordinate office of an embassy. It is still considered sovereign territory, as is the embassy itself. The diplomats who work in them are granted immunity, subject to the same rules as the people in the actual embassy.

Attacking a consulate is the same thing as attacking an embassy.

No peep from congress because they are to busy making speeches about how they disagree with Bush's speech.





Here we go
No distinction between classes.

Raises more questions though:
Were they declared person-non-grata?
Why the hell would they set themselves up in Kurdish controlled territory? Why the hell would the Kurds want them?

The Kurds did stand up to the US, which was probably their responsibility by default (being the controlling representatives of Iraq). Thankfully, it resolved.

I am not sure what to think of the Kurds any longer. I think I still have to say "respect", until something more comes along. I really hope that they are not so deperate for resolution they are going to make things worse. Of course, I thought we should give the whole thing to the Kurds anyway.....

Peace
Joe
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend

Sweden
9666 Posts

Posted - 01/12/2007 :  14:57:56   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Send Dr. Mabuse an ICQ Message Send Dr. Mabuse a Private Message
Sometimes I find myself wishing Iran did indeed have nukes to employ. Detonate one if only to made a statement.

You Americans really need to do something about your president before he lands you in real deep shit. This latest attack on Iranian sovreignty is a f-ing bad warning sign.
I don't like that crazy theocracy, but hell, you need to teach your leaders to mind your own business.

Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3

"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse

Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder.
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