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 Religion versus vaccines--sound familiar?
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HalfMooner
Dingaling

Philippines
15831 Posts

Posted - 02/09/2007 :  04:27:45   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send HalfMooner a Private Message
All matters of communicable disease should be a slam-dunk public health matter, when a preventative vaccine is available. Yes, people should, without exception, be forced to have their kids vaccinated, for their kids' and the public's sake. And that ought, I think, to include the boys. We have a chance to possibly eradicate a cancer. Public health trumps religious concerns. Period! Nobody has a right to harbor this virus.


Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive.
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Original_Intent
SFN Regular

USA
609 Posts

Posted - 02/09/2007 :  06:38:19   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Original_Intent a Private Message
Is there a reason why they are not giving them to men?

Joe
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HalfMooner
Dingaling

Philippines
15831 Posts

Posted - 02/09/2007 :  07:24:05   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send HalfMooner a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Original_Intent

Is there a reason why they are not giving them to men?

Joe

Men don't get cervical cancer, so I guess that's it. But males transmit the papilloma virus, and that would seem to be a good reason to give the vaccines to males, too. I guess it might be a matter of priority, getting a limited amount of vaccine to those in direct danger? I would sure hope a follow-up is done to wipe it out, vaccinating both sexes prior to sexual activity.




Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive.
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Neurosis
SFN Regular

USA
675 Posts

Posted - 02/09/2007 :  11:17:13   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Send Neurosis an AOL message Send Neurosis a Private Message
Give it to everyone if it is necessary. But only giving it to women would still eliminate the cancer due to HPV.

Facts! Pssh, you can prove anything even remotely true with facts.
- Homer Simpson

[God] is an infinite nothing from nowhere with less power over our universe than the secretary of agriculture.
- Prof. Frink

Lisa: Yes, but wouldn't you rather know the truth than to delude yourself for happiness?
Marge: Well... um.... [goes outside to jump on tampoline with Homer.]
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Neurosis
SFN Regular

USA
675 Posts

Posted - 02/09/2007 :  11:21:01   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Send Neurosis an AOL message Send Neurosis a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by pleco

quote:
Nope, god made it pleasurable as punishment remember, not Satan.


Perhaps before the Fall sex between Adam and Eve was not pleasurable, then with the introduction of Knowledge, we also got pleasurable sex (once they realized they were naked, maybe they got turned on..)

Anyway, trying to think like fundy makes my head hurt and I don't want to do it anymore. ;-)



I still say that Genesis either makes god a dumb-ass or Satan a hero, or both.



Facts! Pssh, you can prove anything even remotely true with facts.
- Homer Simpson

[God] is an infinite nothing from nowhere with less power over our universe than the secretary of agriculture.
- Prof. Frink

Lisa: Yes, but wouldn't you rather know the truth than to delude yourself for happiness?
Marge: Well... um.... [goes outside to jump on tampoline with Homer.]
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Robb
SFN Regular

USA
1223 Posts

Posted - 02/09/2007 :  12:10:25   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Robb a Private Message
I think what is being lost in this fascinating discussion about God is that do we know enough about the vaccine to give it to our children? Are there any side effects of the vaccine? I would not object giving the drug to my girls when they are old enough. If there are no bad side effects it will only make the child healthier. What is wrong with that?

As far as the morality of sex; That's my job as a parent. I think parents can have a more profound impact on their child's morality than morning after drugs, free condoms, vaccines etc.

Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master. - George Washington
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Neurosis
SFN Regular

USA
675 Posts

Posted - 02/09/2007 :  12:19:52   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Send Neurosis an AOL message Send Neurosis a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Robb

I think what is being lost in this fascinating discussion about God is that do we know enough about the vaccine to give it to our children? Are there any side effects of the vaccine? I would not object giving the drug to my girls when they are old enough. If there are no bad side effects it will only make the child healthier. What is wrong with that?

As far as the morality of sex; That's my job as a parent. I think parents can have a more profound impact on their child's morality than morning after drugs, free condoms, vaccines etc.




The HPV vaccine is no more dangerous than any other vaccine: info from CDC.

The argument from the crazies is that every action that promotes safe sex, reduces the fear of premarital consequences and without those there is no reason for teenagers not to have sex.

Facts! Pssh, you can prove anything even remotely true with facts.
- Homer Simpson

[God] is an infinite nothing from nowhere with less power over our universe than the secretary of agriculture.
- Prof. Frink

Lisa: Yes, but wouldn't you rather know the truth than to delude yourself for happiness?
Marge: Well... um.... [goes outside to jump on tampoline with Homer.]
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Robb
SFN Regular

USA
1223 Posts

Posted - 02/09/2007 :  12:45:35   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Robb a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Neurosis

The HPV vaccine is no more dangerous than any other vaccine: info from CDC.

The argument from the crazies is that every action that promotes safe sex, reduces the fear of premarital consequences and without those there is no reason for teenagers not to have sex.

I do not agree. When I was 16 I never really thought about any consequences. The consequences are clear in the Bible. But there is no gaurantee that a Christian child will not mess up and have sex. As we who have been that age know, is that sex is a very tempting proposition. I will teach my girls about what the Bible teaches about sex, but I am not naive in thinking that they might succomb to the pressure, temptation or reject God altogether at this age. So I generally think the vaccine is a good idea.

Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master. - George Washington
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend

Sweden
9666 Posts

Posted - 02/09/2007 :  14:59:22   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Send Dr. Mabuse an ICQ Message Send Dr. Mabuse a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Robb

I think what is being lost in this fascinating discussion about God is that do we know enough about the vaccine to give it to our children? Are there any side effects of the vaccine?
You mean like making vaccinated women only carry children with autism or Down's syndrome, like all the other vaccines?

Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3

"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse

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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend

Sweden
9666 Posts

Posted - 02/09/2007 :  15:05:48   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Send Dr. Mabuse an ICQ Message Send Dr. Mabuse a Private Message
Ok, that was below the belt.

But understand, Robb, that there are lots of uneducated Bible litteralists who actually believe that BS. As a Christian yourself, I think it is your duty to your fellow brothers and sisters in faith to educate them in matters like this. It's not like they are interested to listen to reason, when reason comes from evil Atheists with a Commie agenda.

Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3

"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse

Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder.
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Neurosis
SFN Regular

USA
675 Posts

Posted - 02/09/2007 :  16:33:43   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Send Neurosis an AOL message Send Neurosis a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Robb

quote:
Originally posted by Neurosis

The HPV vaccine is no more dangerous than any other vaccine: info from CDC.

The argument from the crazies is that every action that promotes safe sex, reduces the fear of premarital consequences and without those there is no reason for teenagers not to have sex.

I do not agree. When I was 16 I never really thought about any consequences. The consequences are clear in the Bible. But there is no gaurantee that a Christian child will not mess up and have sex. As we who have been that age know, is that sex is a very tempting proposition. I will teach my girls about what the Bible teaches about sex, but I am not naive in thinking that they might succomb to the pressure, temptation or reject God altogether at this age. So I generally think the vaccine is a good idea.



Uh... ok. That has nothing to do with my post. The position of a person against the vaccine is that it will incourage sexual activity by removing one more threat that sex may have before an early sexually active age like 13-18 (vaccine given at 9-12 years). The argument is that protecting the potentially sexually active will encourage them to have sex.

I did not say it was a good argument and I did not say that teenagers think about the consequences. Actually, I have the opposite view. Teenagers don't use protection and don't think about the consequences, thus I am a fan of sex education which includes contraception and a fan of the vaccine.
quote:

I will teach my girls about what the Bible teaches about sex..


Not to nit-pick, but what will you teach them it says? Girls (women) are property in the Old Testament, the maid servents take the place of barren wives (that would be a fun birds and bees), there are clothing restrictions and lust issues with cleavage (can't buy them those American Eagle tight jeans or low cut tops when they get to be teenagers), probably need to keep the biblical "A woman must not wear men's clothing, nor a man wear women's clothing, for the Lord your God detests anyone who does this"" which puts them in dresses (which is good because the teenage boys lust after the tight jeans anyway, in fact the dresses should be long, the longer the better), you can't forget to tell them that their menstrual cycle makes them unclean, Heres a good night time story:

Numbers 31:1-54

Under God's direction, Moses' army defeats the Midianites. They kill all the adult males, but take the women and children captive. When Moses learns that they left some live, he angrily says: "Have you saved all the women alive? Kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him. But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves." So they went back and did as Moses (and presumably God) instructed, killing everyone except for the virgins. In this way they got 32,000 virgins. Wonder what their gonna do with them?

In the NT good old paul explains that women are good for sex Romans 1:27, Jesus explains that if something makes you sin (lust and fornication?) cut it off, here he gives guys the go ahead, Matthew 18:12, but what about the girls, no balls to cut off off... wait, clitorectomy. That is probably best anyway since Paul suggests everyone be abstanent, 1 Cor 7:5. That procedure certainly would be advantages to keep this advice and it isn't dangerous with modern technology (doubt you'll convince the good doc though).

I would guess you really are just gonna tell them what your pastor says about sex and not the bible.

Facts! Pssh, you can prove anything even remotely true with facts.
- Homer Simpson

[God] is an infinite nothing from nowhere with less power over our universe than the secretary of agriculture.
- Prof. Frink

Lisa: Yes, but wouldn't you rather know the truth than to delude yourself for happiness?
Marge: Well... um.... [goes outside to jump on tampoline with Homer.]
Edited by - Neurosis on 02/09/2007 19:34:42
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Ricky
SFN Die Hard

USA
4907 Posts

Posted - 02/09/2007 :  17:27:08   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Send Ricky an AOL message Send Ricky a Private Message
quote:
Yes, people should, without exception, be forced to have their kids vaccinated, for their kids' and the public's sake.


I don't believe this has been discussed, and I hope the reason behind this is not because everyone agrees. I think it's a horrible, sad, and possibly stupid situation when a parent chooses not to vaccinate their child and the child suffers because of it. But as long as that parent is attempting to act in the best interest of their child, that is, there is no malicious intent, how can you say that the government should be able to go against the parents wishes?

Why continue? Because we must. Because we have the call. Because it is nobler to fight for rationality without winning than to give up in the face of continued defeats. Because whatever true progress humanity makes is through the rationality of the occasional individual and because any one individual we may win for the cause may do more for humanity than a hundred thousand who hug their superstitions to their breast.
- Isaac Asimov
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Ghost_Skeptic
SFN Regular

Canada
510 Posts

Posted - 02/09/2007 :  18:25:04   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Ghost_Skeptic a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Robb

As far as the morality of sex; That's my job as a parent. I think parents can have a more profound impact on their child's morality than morning after drugs, free condoms, vaccines etc.


Exactly - but a lot of Fundamentalist parents must think they can't do this job. Actually being vaccinated against one STD might make them more aware of the risks they aren't vaccinated against.

quote:
Originally posted by Robb

When I was 16 I never really thought about any consequences. The consequences are clear in the Bible. But there is no gaurantee that a Christian child will not mess up and have sex. As we who have been that age know, is that sex is a very tempting proposition. I will teach my girls about what the Bible teaches about sex, but I am not naive in thinking that they might succomb to the pressure, temptation or reject God altogether at this age. So I generally think the vaccine is a good idea.



Or they may not have a choice or be in a situation with diminished capacity. You can do your best but it only takes once. They could even be infected by their husband.

Being a safe driver doesn't mean you shouldn't wear your seat belt and wearing your seat belt doesn't mean you should drive like an idiot.

"You can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink. / You can send a kid to college but you can't make him think." - B.B. King

History is made by stupid people - The Arrogant Worms

"The greater the ignorance the greater the dogmatism." - William Osler

"Religion is the natural home of the psychopath" - Pat Condell

"The day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the supreme being as his father in the womb of a virgin, will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerva in the brain of Jupiter" - Thomas Jefferson
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Neurosis
SFN Regular

USA
675 Posts

Posted - 02/09/2007 :  19:29:59   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Send Neurosis an AOL message Send Neurosis a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Ricky

quote:
Yes, people should, without exception, be forced to have their kids vaccinated, for their kids' and the public's sake.


I don't believe this has been discussed, and I hope the reason behind this is not because everyone agrees. I think it's a horrible, sad, and possibly stupid situation when a parent chooses not to vaccinate their child and the child suffers because of it. But as long as that parent is attempting to act in the best interest of their child, that is, there is no malicious intent, how can you say that the government should be able to go against the parents wishes?



This is a good point Ricky the government forces us to do certain things with our kids like schooling, but is vaccination in the same catergory as schooling or the like in terms of benefit to children?

Facts! Pssh, you can prove anything even remotely true with facts.
- Homer Simpson

[God] is an infinite nothing from nowhere with less power over our universe than the secretary of agriculture.
- Prof. Frink

Lisa: Yes, but wouldn't you rather know the truth than to delude yourself for happiness?
Marge: Well... um.... [goes outside to jump on tampoline with Homer.]
Edited by - Neurosis on 02/09/2007 19:30:23
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Original_Intent
SFN Regular

USA
609 Posts

Posted - 02/09/2007 :  19:39:21   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Original_Intent a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Robb

I think what is being lost in this fascinating discussion about God is that do we know enough about the vaccine to give it to our children? Are there any side effects of the vaccine? I would not object giving the drug to my girls when they are old enough. If there are no bad side effects it will only make the child healthier. What is wrong with that?


As far as the morality of sex; That's my job as a parent. I think parents can have a more profound impact on their child's morality than morning after drugs, free condoms, vaccines etc.

[/quote]
Amen, especially the part about other people being the guinea pigs. I have 11+ years before I even have to think about it.

Peace
Joe
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