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Dave W.
Info Junkie

USA
25977 Posts

Posted - 02/07/2007 :  21:49:46  Show Profile  Visit Dave W.'s Homepage Send Dave W. a Private Message
Poll Question:
Libertarianism is the logical choice of governmental system for a critical thinker.

Results:
I agree.   [29%] 12 votes
I disagree.   [48%] 20 votes
Let 'em get elected, and when we're tired of stepping over the bodies, we can try again.   [24%] 10 votes


Poll Status: Locked  »»   Total Votes: 42 counted  »»   Last Vote: 02/28/2007 20:07:20 

Neurosis
SFN Regular

USA
675 Posts

Posted - 02/08/2007 :  02:37:16   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Send Neurosis an AOL message Send Neurosis a Private Message
How do we define Libertarianism in this poll Dave?
Is it simply, the view that men shall be free to do as he pleases so long as no rights of others are disturbed, or are we using a deepet definition (morally) or a shiftier definition (politically)?

Facts! Pssh, you can prove anything even remotely true with facts.
- Homer Simpson

[God] is an infinite nothing from nowhere with less power over our universe than the secretary of agriculture.
- Prof. Frink

Lisa: Yes, but wouldn't you rather know the truth than to delude yourself for happiness?
Marge: Well... um.... [goes outside to jump on tampoline with Homer.]
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filthy
SFN Die Hard

USA
14408 Posts

Posted - 02/08/2007 :  04:30:20   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send filthy a Private Message
quote:
Let 'em get elected, and when we're tired of stepping over the bodies, we can try again.
Isn't this a common theme for most if not all political spasms; notably the one we're currently in?




"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)

"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres


"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude

Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,

and Crypto-Communist!

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Dave W.
Info Junkie

USA
25977 Posts

Posted - 02/08/2007 :  06:14:21   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Dave W.'s Homepage Send Dave W. a Private Message
The poll was Kil's idea, but I think libertarianism needs to be defined as the Libertarian Party defines it.

- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too.
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Kil
Evil Skeptic

USA
13458 Posts

Posted - 02/08/2007 :  08:05:53   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Kil's Homepage  Send Kil an AOL message  Send Kil a Yahoo! Message Send Kil a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Dave W.

The poll was Kil's idea, but I think libertarianism needs to be defined as the Libertarian Party defines it.


Oh sure, blame me.

The Libertarian Party from wiki talks about this Libertarian Party.

That is what the poll refers too, just so's ya know…

And the reason I thought of it is that at TAM5 we had Miachle Shermer and some fellows from Reason Magazine promoting Libertarianism.

And, of course, Penn and Teller and others luminaries in the skeptical movement also push the party.

It is my opinion that once skeptics become identified with any political movement we are in trouble.

Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.

Why not question something for a change?

Genetic Literacy Project
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marfknox
SFN Die Hard

USA
3739 Posts

Posted - 02/08/2007 :  09:39:38   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit marfknox's Homepage  Send marfknox an AOL message Send marfknox a Private Message
Kil wrote:
quote:
It is my opinion that once skeptics become identified with any political movement we are in trouble.
I generally agree, although I would have written it as: once skeptics (or any other freethinkers) identify skepticism with any political movement or ideology, we are in trouble.

I was actually a wee bit offended by this poll. The fact that some people are voting "I agree" implies that those people could consider people such as myself, Halfmooner, and beskeptical - who are clearly more liberal than libertarian - less logical or less critical thinkers. I have met Libertarians who were wonderful critical thinkers, and Liberals, and even Conservatives. One can have non-magical reasons for many political ideas. I even once knew a pro-life Libertarian atheist, and he had totally secular reasons for opposing legal abortion. We all have different experiences, knowledge, emotions, and information to base our opinions on, so it is absurd to think that all critical thinkers would have the same or even extremely similar politics.

"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong

Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com

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marfknox
SFN Die Hard

USA
3739 Posts

Posted - 02/08/2007 :  09:46:52   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit marfknox's Homepage  Send marfknox an AOL message Send marfknox a Private Message
Hell, why can't a fascist be a critical thinker? Maybe on the basis of their knowledge and experience, they have concluded that most people are too stupid to govern themselves in their own best interests, and therefore the best solution is a strong and right-minded dictator ruling over people. Sure, you can argue against them that it has been tried before and failed, or that the major flaw is that the government could become corrupt over time, or that without checks and balances, such absolute power would corrupt anyone, but all of those arguments have retorts as well. Sure, I and most people today adamently reject fascism as a viable political system, but since politics is such a very mushy-soft science, there is no reason to assume that anyone ascribing to fascism is automatically irrational.

Being skeptical doesn't rule out being a dickhead. :-)

"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong

Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com

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Kil
Evil Skeptic

USA
13458 Posts

Posted - 02/08/2007 :  10:00:33   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Kil's Homepage  Send Kil an AOL message  Send Kil a Yahoo! Message Send Kil a Private Message
quote:
marfknox:
I generally agree, although I would have written it as: once skeptics (or any other freethinkers) identify skepticism with any political movement or ideology, we are in trouble.

Okay, you put it better.

Attention: Forget what I wrote and substitute this:

"Once skeptics (or any other freethinkers) identify skepticism with any political movement or ideology, we are in trouble."

Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.

Why not question something for a change?

Genetic Literacy Project
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Dave W.
Info Junkie

USA
25977 Posts

Posted - 02/08/2007 :  11:14:10   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Dave W.'s Homepage Send Dave W. a Private Message
I prefer to think that after the end of my term as "President of the World for Life," history will label my rule as a "benign dictatorship" instead of "fascism," marf.

But seriously, if you're "a wee bit offended" by people clicking "I agree," then it's probably true that some skeptical libertarians out there may get "a wee bit offended" by people clicking the other two answers.

- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too.
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Neurosis
SFN Regular

USA
675 Posts

Posted - 02/08/2007 :  14:59:48   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Send Neurosis an AOL message Send Neurosis a Private Message
I identify skeptics as both free thinkers and critical thinkers. Skeptics should be critcal of all view points, even their own, and open to all view points, especially the ones they have not considered. In this interest, I think that the two political sides, conservative versus liberal, is a bit like hot versus cold. We all know that there is no such thing as cold, only heat (less equals colder, making it relative). I think the more open you are to other people's view point the more liberal you become because you conserve less of the old view points you were taught to observe by past experience and by growing up in that culture. Of course, culture changes over time to incorporate and alter past tradition and new traditions.

Facts! Pssh, you can prove anything even remotely true with facts.
- Homer Simpson

[God] is an infinite nothing from nowhere with less power over our universe than the secretary of agriculture.
- Prof. Frink

Lisa: Yes, but wouldn't you rather know the truth than to delude yourself for happiness?
Marge: Well... um.... [goes outside to jump on tampoline with Homer.]
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend

Sweden
9666 Posts

Posted - 02/08/2007 :  15:17:09   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Send Dr. Mabuse an ICQ Message Send Dr. Mabuse a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by marfknox

Hell, why can't a fascist be a critical thinker? Maybe on the basis of their knowledge and experience, they have concluded that most people are too stupid to govern themselves in their own best interests, and therefore the best solution is a strong and right-minded dictator ruling over people.
Isn't that what Bush and cohorts managed to do? I mean setting themselves up as Leaders because they know that the majority of Americans don't know what best for them (that is... spending their time praying for salvation though Jesus Christ).
Ok, that wasn't nice.
And it wasn't supported by evidense. But I wouldn't put Bush past it, considering how much I've heard about election tampering.

Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3

"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse

Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder.
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tomk80
SFN Regular

Netherlands
1278 Posts

Posted - 02/09/2007 :  07:51:34   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit tomk80's Homepage Send tomk80 a Private Message
There are certain issues in the libertarian issues that I think are very much up for debate. An example is the libertarian opposition of the wellfare state. When looking at the CATO-institute, I am often skeptical on whether they are really skeptical. They regularly seem to entranced in their own worldview of opposing government intervention to come to robust conclusions about issues like global warming. This is also something that struck me in a number of issues of Penn & Teller's Bullshit (long live the internet, so I could at least watch some of them), where their opposition to government intervention seemed to interfere to a sound analysis of evidence.

Tom

`Contrariwise,' continued Tweedledee, `if it was so, it might be; and if it were so, it would be; but as it isn't, it ain't. That's logic.'
-Through the Looking Glass by Lewis Caroll-
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@tomic
Administrator

USA
4607 Posts

Posted - 02/09/2007 :  15:08:26   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit @tomic's Homepage Send @tomic a Private Message
Why is this poll a loaded question? What would be a more interesting poll is what is the best political system for a critical thinker? But it would be more difficult than that since many political systems are thought of as political/economic systems. I would at the very least drop the third option in this poll since I think it reflects on us poorly.

@

Gravity, not just a good idea...it's the law!

Sportsbettingacumen.com: The science of sports betting
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Dave W.
Info Junkie

USA
25977 Posts

Posted - 02/09/2007 :  15:39:33   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Dave W.'s Homepage Send Dave W. a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by @tomic

Why is this poll a loaded question? What would be a more interesting poll is what is the best political system for a critical thinker? But it would be more difficult than that since many political systems are thought of as political/economic systems. I would at the very least drop the third option in this poll since I think it reflects on us poorly.
So, Kil, did I predict the above response or not?

Damn, I'm good.

- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too.
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Kil
Evil Skeptic

USA
13458 Posts

Posted - 02/09/2007 :  16:32:25   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Kil's Homepage  Send Kil an AOL message  Send Kil a Yahoo! Message Send Kil a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Dave W.

quote:
Originally posted by @tomic

Why is this poll a loaded question? What would be a more interesting poll is what is the best political system for a critical thinker? But it would be more difficult than that since many political systems are thought of as political/economic systems. I would at the very least drop the third option in this poll since I think it reflects on us poorly.
So, Kil, did I predict the above response or not?

Damn, I'm good.

Yeah Dave. But it did take him three days to notice.
quote:
@tomic:
Why is this poll a loaded question?

Because it is more of a statement than a poll as I explained a few posts above. And on this left leaning site, a serious poll on the question is pretty much out of the question.
quote:
@tomic:
What would be a more interesting poll is what is the best political system for a critical thinker?

Yes, a poll where any answer is wrong. Love it!!!!!

Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.

Why not question something for a change?

Genetic Literacy Project
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@tomic
Administrator

USA
4607 Posts

Posted - 02/09/2007 :  16:41:48   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit @tomic's Homepage Send @tomic a Private Message
quote:
Yeah Dave. But it did take him three days to notice.

Is there some unmentioned time it's supposed to take me to notice polls? It's become a blind spot because I don't think polls are being handled well. I think we'd be better off without the feature than using them this way.

@

Gravity, not just a good idea...it's the law!

Sportsbettingacumen.com: The science of sports betting
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