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Kil
Evil Skeptic

USA
13457 Posts

Posted - 02/09/2007 :  16:46:06   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Kil's Homepage  Send Kil an AOL message  Send Kil a Yahoo! Message Send Kil a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by @tomic

quote:
Yeah Dave. But it did take him three days to notice.

Is there some unmentioned time it's supposed to take me to notice polls? It's become a blind spot because I don't think polls are being handled well. I think we'd be better off without the feature than using them this way.

@


But it has stimulated a conversation... Do you expect these polls to be scientific or valid in some way?

Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.

Why not question something for a change?

Genetic Literacy Project
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@tomic
Administrator

USA
4607 Posts

Posted - 02/09/2007 :  16:52:16   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit @tomic's Homepage Send @tomic a Private Message
Why don't we just plaster a message on the homepage that says "I think Libertarians are stupid" and pick a new one each month. Next month it could say "Congratulations to the Democrat Party".

@

Gravity, not just a good idea...it's the law!

Sportsbettingacumen.com: The science of sports betting
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Kil
Evil Skeptic

USA
13457 Posts

Posted - 02/09/2007 :  17:00:24   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Kil's Homepage  Send Kil an AOL message  Send Kil a Yahoo! Message Send Kil a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by @tomic

Why don't we just plaster a message on the homepage that says "I think Libertarians are stupid" and pick a new one each month. Next month it could say "Congratulations to the Democrat Party".

@


I don't see any Libertarians complaining. And so far, they have 20% of the vote.

Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.

Why not question something for a change?

Genetic Literacy Project
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Neurosis
SFN Regular

USA
675 Posts

Posted - 02/09/2007 :  20:04:23   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Send Neurosis an AOL message Send Neurosis a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by @tomic

Why don't we just plaster a message on the homepage that says "I think Libertarians are stupid" and pick a new one each month. Next month it could say "Congratulations to the Democrat Party".

@




How about:

"Republicans are ruining America."
"Christians are going to Hell."
or
"Skeptics rule and Believers drool."

Just a few suggetions, you guys work it out.

Facts! Pssh, you can prove anything even remotely true with facts.
- Homer Simpson

[God] is an infinite nothing from nowhere with less power over our universe than the secretary of agriculture.
- Prof. Frink

Lisa: Yes, but wouldn't you rather know the truth than to delude yourself for happiness?
Marge: Well... um.... [goes outside to jump on tampoline with Homer.]
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Neurosis
SFN Regular

USA
675 Posts

Posted - 02/09/2007 :  20:08:47   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Send Neurosis an AOL message Send Neurosis a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Kil

I don't see any Libertarians complaining. And so far, they have 20% of the vote.



I could care less also has 20%.

Facts! Pssh, you can prove anything even remotely true with facts.
- Homer Simpson

[God] is an infinite nothing from nowhere with less power over our universe than the secretary of agriculture.
- Prof. Frink

Lisa: Yes, but wouldn't you rather know the truth than to delude yourself for happiness?
Marge: Well... um.... [goes outside to jump on tampoline with Homer.]
Edited by - Neurosis on 02/09/2007 20:09:10
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Dude
SFN Die Hard

USA
6891 Posts

Posted - 02/09/2007 :  22:45:21   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Dude a Private Message
I agree with many libertarian principles, but I voted "disagree".

There is no one single philosophical-political outlook that covers everything well enough to be "THE" logical choice.


Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson

"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin

Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth
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beskeptigal
SFN Die Hard

USA
3834 Posts

Posted - 02/10/2007 :  19:08:57   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send beskeptigal a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Neurosis

...
I could care less also has 20%.

If you are speaking of option 3, I didn't interpret that as, "I could care less". I interpreted it as, "Libertarians are in a fantasy world and they need a dose of reality to get themselves out of it." And after interpreting option 3 in my own special way, I voted for it.

@tomic, the polls in forums are just a different style of an OP. It adds a little assessment of opinion that might not be apparent by just reading the most vocal among us. Slanted is fine if the topic is one side of an issue. I don't see this thread as being about people's party affiliations, it's about Libertarianism.




Edited by - beskeptigal on 02/10/2007 19:09:45
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beskeptigal
SFN Die Hard

USA
3834 Posts

Posted - 02/10/2007 :  19:28:15   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send beskeptigal a Private Message
As far as option 3 goes, however, the experiment is already in progress:

Unloading Assets: Cities and states are selling off bits and pieces of infrastructure. Is it a sweet deal or a mistake?

Strapped States Try New Route, Lease Toll Roads to Foreign Firms

Harris County avoids trendy toll road privatization

I've been meaning to start a similar thread. This will do. I have a few questions for the Libertarians on the forum.

How do you propose to deal with corruption and cronyism?

How do you propose to deal with monopolies?

How do you propose to deal with concentration of wealth and the disappearance of the middle class?

How do you propose to deal with people who didn't or couldn't obtain medical insurance, the children of people who didn't or couldn't obtain medical insurance, the people who didn't or couldn't obtain a retirement source of income, the people and the children of people who can't afford to pay the rates for unregulated power, hwy toll fees, water, sewer, garbage, and food?

Those are just a few of my questions but they'll do to get to the fantasy aspects of Libertarianism.


Edited by - beskeptigal on 02/10/2007 19:28:56
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marfknox
SFN Die Hard

USA
3739 Posts

Posted - 02/11/2007 :  08:03:09   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit marfknox's Homepage  Send marfknox an AOL message Send marfknox a Private Message
Dave wrote:
quote:
But seriously, if you're "a wee bit offended" by people clicking "I agree," then it's probably true that some skeptical libertarians out there may get "a wee bit offended" by people clicking the other two answers.


What? Why? The third option was rather neutral - basically a "let's try it out so we can get more information" for people who strongly suspect that Libertarianism would be preferable to traditional conservatism or liberalism. The second option is the best choice regardless of whether one is pro-libertarianism or not because no political system is THE logical choice for skeptics (as Dude just put so concisely.)

I agree with @tomic that the poll is loaded, and that bothers me the more I look at it. Had it been worded the same way but replacing "Libertarian" with "Liberal", I still would have been offended, and I still would have voted "I disagree" even though I personally am a liberal.

This poll sucks.

"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong

Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com

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marfknox
SFN Die Hard

USA
3739 Posts

Posted - 02/11/2007 :  08:05:12   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit marfknox's Homepage  Send marfknox an AOL message Send marfknox a Private Message
beskeptical wrote:
quote:
I interpreted it as, "Libertarians are in a fantasy world and they need a dose of reality to get themselves out of it." And after interpreting option 3 in my own special way, I voted for it.
Ha! I wish I had thought of that. :-)

"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong

Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com

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marfknox
SFN Die Hard

USA
3739 Posts

Posted - 02/11/2007 :  08:19:40   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit marfknox's Homepage  Send marfknox an AOL message Send marfknox a Private Message
I think the reason Libertarianism is often so appealing to skeptics is because it is born from a fairly simple and logically consistent philosophy, and skeptics tend to be more logical than the average person. Ayn Rand was an atheist and purist capitalist. She was able to sum-up her entire philosophical view in 8 words:

Metaphysics: Objective Reality
Epistemology: Reason
Ethics: Self-interest
Politics: Capitalism

The simplicity and consistency of this philosophy is aesthetically gorgeous. It is seductive to the naturally logical thinker. It seems so beautifully honest and clear.

Unfortunately, human beings and life is not that simple. The info that any one person or group of people has on objective reality is limited and tremendously complex. Our reason itself is corrupted by emotions, social pressure, and natural instincts and tendencies that we may not even be consciously aware of. And Rand's rantings about the virtues of selfishness and about altruism being a myth were only so much distortion of commonly understood semantics.

Human beings are not like Data from Star Trek. Politics is always going to be messy. There is no quick solution, much less total privatization and capitalism running rampant.

"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong

Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com

Edited by - marfknox on 02/11/2007 08:20:59
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marfknox
SFN Die Hard

USA
3739 Posts

Posted - 02/11/2007 :  09:03:11   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit marfknox's Homepage  Send marfknox an AOL message Send marfknox a Private Message
I'm looking at the poll again, and it occurs to me that perhaps some of the people who voted "I agree" interpreted the question to mean that Libertarianism could be the logical choice for some but not all skeptics. The wording of the question could be ambiguous since even though "logical choice" has a "the" in front of it, "critical thinker" has "a" in front of it.

Of course that's probably stretch. Yeah... you people who voted "I agree" suck.

"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong

Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com

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Kil
Evil Skeptic

USA
13457 Posts

Posted - 02/11/2007 :  11:39:07   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Kil's Homepage  Send Kil an AOL message  Send Kil a Yahoo! Message Send Kil a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by marfknox

beskeptical wrote:
quote:
I interpreted it as, "Libertarians are in a fantasy world and they need a dose of reality to get themselves out of it." And after interpreting option 3 in my own special way, I voted for it.
Ha! I wish I had thought of that. :-)

Actually, that was exactly what I meant for option three's meaning. And really, the poll is largely a joke. It was in reaction to what I saw as Libertarian recruitment at TAM. So the joke may be a little inside. But even taken at face value, I thought the third option was funny. My sense of humor I guess…

I also voted for option three…


Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.

Why not question something for a change?

Genetic Literacy Project
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Neurosis
SFN Regular

USA
675 Posts

Posted - 02/11/2007 :  18:01:53   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Send Neurosis an AOL message Send Neurosis a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by beskeptigal

If you are speaking of option 3, I didn't interpret that as, "I could care less". I interpreted it as, "Libertarians are in a fantasy world and they need a dose of reality to get themselves out of it." And after interpreting option 3 in my own special way, I voted for it.


So... you think libertarians are in a fantasy world and thus you would vote them in and watch the bodies hit the floor?

Facts! Pssh, you can prove anything even remotely true with facts.
- Homer Simpson

[God] is an infinite nothing from nowhere with less power over our universe than the secretary of agriculture.
- Prof. Frink

Lisa: Yes, but wouldn't you rather know the truth than to delude yourself for happiness?
Marge: Well... um.... [goes outside to jump on tampoline with Homer.]
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Dude
SFN Die Hard

USA
6891 Posts

Posted - 02/11/2007 :  19:03:29   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Dude a Private Message
It is a mistake to think that Libertarians don't have anything to contribute to the political discourse. I think its ammusing to see how some of you here treat the idea of libertarianism the same way some republicans treat liberals.


Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson

"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin

Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth
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