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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard

USA
5310 Posts

Posted - 02/22/2007 :  14:22:22   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Gorgo a Private Message
Yes, the U.S. gummint has always been deathly afraid of being attacked by Cuba.

I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter



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beskeptigal
SFN Die Hard

USA
3834 Posts

Posted - 02/22/2007 :  14:36:09   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send beskeptigal a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Gorgo

quote:
We don't care about the Sudan too much.


Well, lets not forget a good amount of terrorism against Korea and Cuba and Panama, none of which have large quantities of oil, as I recall.

Oil is hardly the only resource.

Corporate investments that are threatened by nationalization moves, the canal, the fact Russia almost installed nuclear war headed missiles 90 miles from Miami...

I don't know what Grenada was all about but I suspect it was the same issue as Cuba. Reagan was insanely anti-communist and viewed the tiny countries to the south as all dominoes.


Korea was a domino issue. The fifties were all about the US/Western Europe, China, and Russia/Eastern Europe competing for dominoes. Most of the fight was over strategic location or all manner of natural resources oil being only one of those. Currently oil is the one resource the largest actions (like military actions) are being motivated by.



Edited by - beskeptigal on 02/22/2007 14:37:10
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard

USA
5310 Posts

Posted - 02/22/2007 :  15:04:51   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Gorgo a Private Message
quote:
the fact Russia almost installed nuclear war headed missiles 90 miles from Miami...



At the request of Cuba, to defend against U.S. terrorism.

I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter



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Mycroft
Skeptic Friend

USA
427 Posts

Posted - 02/22/2007 :  22:20:07   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Mycroft a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by beskeptigal
Dr Mab was pointing out ethnicity and ideology are not analogous. Your reply doesn't seem to indicate you understood that.


a•nal•o•gous
adj.
1.Similar or alike in such a way as to permit the drawing of an analogy.


http://www.answers.com/analogous&r=67

They work just fine for the analogy I was making. Just because you identify a common denominator doesn't mean you've identified a common cause. That's basic science and basic logic.
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beskeptigal
SFN Die Hard

USA
3834 Posts

Posted - 02/22/2007 :  22:58:01   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send beskeptigal a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Mycroft

quote:
Originally posted by beskeptigal
Dr Mab was pointing out ethnicity and ideology are not analogous. Your reply doesn't seem to indicate you understood that.


a•nal•o•gous
adj.
1.Similar or alike in such a way as to permit the drawing of an analogy.


http://www.answers.com/analogous&r=67

They work just fine for the analogy I was making. Just because you identify a common denominator doesn't mean you've identified a common cause. That's basic science and basic logic.


You compared ethnicity to ideology. An analogy would be an ideology and an ideology or an ethnicity and an ethnicity. Being a "common cause" could be analogous the way you used it, but you still missed the fact that the point Dr M made was how your examples differed. In other words, he rejected your analogy on the grounds ideology and ethnicity were not "common" causes but different causes. You could have addressed that by supporting what it was you thought made ethnicity and ideology the same in your example, but instead you replied as if you didn't get the point Dr M made.

(Edited after thinking more about what the actual issue was.)

I have made a mess here so let me add this:

BPS:
Well at least we can end the charade that we are not at war with Islam.

Mycroft:
Just because Iran is an Islamic theocracy doesn't make war with Iran the equivalent of war against Islam. That makes about as much sense as saying Korea and Vietnam proves the US was at war with Asians.

BPS:
I didnt say anything about Asians, because the Vietnam War and Korea were not connected in any way other than their opponent.

Mycroft:
Okay, so what evidence do you have that if we were to go to war with Iran, that Islam would have played any role in the decision?

Dr M:
BigPapaSmurf didn't say was against Arabs.
Korea and Vietnam wasn't against Asians, it was against a philosophy (political philosophy).
In Iran it will be against a philosophy (religious philosophy).


You were OK up to that point. Then you posted this:

Mycroft:
Nor did I claim he did, however what he did say was just as senseless.
Does that mean you can't think of anything non-religious Iran's government might have done that has exacerbated the situation?


And that's where it seemed you didn't understand Dr M's point.


That's all, not really a big deal and I wouldn't have said more had you not posted the above post which seems like you were still missing the gist of the discussion.
Edited by - beskeptigal on 02/22/2007 23:21:17
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Orwellingly Yurz
SFN Regular

USA
529 Posts

Posted - 02/22/2007 :  22:58:26   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Orwellingly Yurz a Private Message
YO! Man on Halfmoon Bay said:

"I don't care what the Hell it might be equivalent to, I'm just terrified we'll invade Iran and get creamed!"

Orwellingly Yurz Sez:

Halfmooner: I think there'll be less of a land invasion than a missile and air bombing war. I believe that will be how it begins, and of course, the neocons will think that will do it. Wrong! What it'll do is frighten the majority of Iranians who don't support their bellicose leaders into backing them. Then we'll have more land war action and a much bigger spread of conflict. That's the chilling part of that.

Things at home AND abroad are really tough for Bush now: Too many bad things in the news that are actually getting some play, but not nearly as much as Anna-Nicole Smith. But, we have to realize that where her remains are to be buried is much more important than if the world might be getting closer to WW III.

Another component of it is: the Israelis might initiate as the surrogate. But Bush is such a bring 'em on kind of guy, it may well be he'll just have our Army Reserve and National Guard guys ride into town. Then the ones who will be lucky enough to get back alive to the US with just wounds or loss of limbs will have to work out the details of their medical insurance on their own and hope they don't get poor housing at Walter Reed.

OY!



"The modern conservative...is engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy. That is the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness."
--John Kenneth Galbraith

If dogs run free
Then what must be,
Must be...
And that is all
--Bob Dylan

The neo-cons have gotten welfare for themselves down to a fine art.
--me

"The meek shall inherit the earth, but not the mineral rights."
--J. Paul Getty

"The great thing about Art isn't what it give us, but what we become through it."
--Oscar Wilde

"We have Art in order not to die of life."
--Albert Camus

"I cling like a miser to the freedom I lose when surrounded by an abundance of things."
--Albert Camus

"Experience is the name so many people give to their mistakes."
--Oscar Wilde
Edited by - Orwellingly Yurz on 02/22/2007 23:07:32
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Mycroft
Skeptic Friend

USA
427 Posts

Posted - 02/23/2007 :  00:30:35   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Mycroft a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by beskeptigal
You compared ethnicity to ideology. An analogy would be an ideology and an ideology or an ethnicity and an ethnicity.

<snip>

That's all, not really a big deal and I wouldn't have said more had you not posted the above post which seems like you were still missing the gist of the discussion.



Once again you confuse disagreement with misunderstanding. I understand the "gist" just fine, it's you that seems a bit dense.

An analogy doesn't require that the things compared be identical, only that they're similar in some way. In this case the religion of Islam is similar to the ethnicity "asian" in that they are both common factors of the populations of two nations the US went to war with, yet unrelated to the cause of the wars.

Sorry, but there is no rule that you can't make an analogy with an ethnicity and a religion.
Edited by - Mycroft on 02/23/2007 00:33:15
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beskeptigal
SFN Die Hard

USA
3834 Posts

Posted - 02/23/2007 :  03:08:43   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send beskeptigal a Private Message
Mycroft, I posted the exchange which led to my conclusion. Dr Mab drew the same conclusion. Instead of getting miffed just make your case.

Which, by the way, wasn't convincing. It isn't that you disagree, it's that your post indicated you missed the point. And, no surprise, you continue to miss the point. Or perhaps you are just rationalizing.

In any case, it's such a minor issue.











Edited by - beskeptigal on 02/23/2007 03:10:50
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Mycroft
Skeptic Friend

USA
427 Posts

Posted - 02/23/2007 :  21:33:54   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Mycroft a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by beskeptigal
Mycroft, I posted the exchange which led to my conclusion. Dr Mab drew the same conclusion. Instead of getting miffed just make your case.


I'm not "miffed". I'm pointing out (multiple times because it seems necessary) that you and Dr Mab are wrong, that analogies need only use things that share something in common and don't need to be identical. You're allowed to make an analogy of ethnicity and religion if it fits, there is no rule against it.

quote:
Originally posted by beskeptigalWhich, by the way, wasn't convincing. It isn't that you disagree, it's that your post indicated you missed the point. And, no surprise, you continue to miss the point. Or perhaps you are just rationalizing.


If BigPapaSmurf is making an assertion that war with Iraq would “prove” the US is at war with Islam, then it's up to him to prove his assertion. It's not up to me to prove it's not true, because that would put me in place of proving a negative. I've already done my part in reminding him (and you) that a common factor does not prove causation, which is basic in science and logic.

quote:
Originally posted by beskeptigal
In any case, it's such a minor issue.


Is it? Then why keep bringing it up? Why not focus on the issue? If you agree that war with Iran would “prove” that the US is at war with Islam, then make your case for it. If you disagree, then join the discussion by stating why you disagree.
Edited by - Mycroft on 02/23/2007 21:35:48
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BigPapaSmurf
SFN Die Hard

3192 Posts

Posted - 02/24/2007 :  12:56:37   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send BigPapaSmurf a Private Message
First off I said my comment was not to be taken so literally, twice. Second, I said that Isreals enemy = Islam, and the US will support any war the Isrealis commit to, therefor technically 'at war with islam'. Third, in most versions of Islam its is widely tought that any attack by a non-muslim force on a muslim force is considered an attack on islam and must be defended as such.*

*Luckily the Secret Global Zionist-Atheist Alliance (SGZAA) has pacified most of them with the hedonism and debaucery of Western Culture! Hail Darwin!

"...things I have neither seen nor experienced nor heard tell of from anybody else; things, what is more, that do not in fact exist and could not ever exist at all. So my readers must not believe a word I say." -Lucian on his book True History

"...They accept such things on faith alone, without any evidence. So if a fraudulent and cunning person who knows how to take advantage of a situation comes among them, he can make himself rich in a short time." -Lucian critical of early Christians c.166 AD From his book, De Morte Peregrini
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend

Sweden
9666 Posts

Posted - 02/25/2007 :  03:22:52   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Send Dr. Mabuse an ICQ Message Send Dr. Mabuse a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Mycroft

quote:
Originally posted by beskeptigal
Mycroft, I posted the exchange which led to my conclusion. Dr Mab drew the same conclusion. Instead of getting miffed just make your case.

I'm not "miffed". I'm pointing out (multiple times because it seems necessary) that you and Dr Mab are wrong, that analogies need only use things that share something in common and don't need to be identical. You're allowed to make an analogy of ethnicity and religion if it fits, there is no rule against it.

You are absolutely right that you are allowed to make such an analogy. But the general rule is that you don't make a piss-poor analogy when you can do a good one. Poor and misleading/misdirected analogies should be reserved for Creationists and political extremists to make, because they usually lack well-reasoned arguemts. Do you belong to either group?

The reason I diss your analogy as poor is because it neglects the differences between ethnicity and philosophical ideas.
Making war on people, be they Asians or Arabs, is a war that attacks physical targets. As such, it is a war that can be won by committing genocide (something I don't trust USA not to do any longer). Making war on ideas, be they philosophical or idealogical, is making war on something abstract, which by it's very nature cannot be attacked by ordinance. Such a war cannot be won by physical force.


<rant>
Mycroft, I don't trust USA (or you) to do the right thing anymore. If you continue to attack nations that has every right to conduct their own business as they damn well please, then you are making me an enemy of yours too.
http://www.telisphere.com/~cearley/sean/camps/first.html
If we don't draw the line somewhere and say "enough already", I fear for where it will all end.
This is not a slippery slope argument: we've already made good distance down toward the bottom.

The more USA push their agenda on others, the more other people will push back. Didn't the WTC attack teach you anything? </rant>

Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3

"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse

Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder.
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard

USA
5310 Posts

Posted - 02/25/2007 :  05:27:29   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Gorgo a Private Message
quote:
Didn't the WTC attack teach you anything? </rant>



It seems that people in the U.S. learned that senseless murders really do make sense because that's what they seem to support.

I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter



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Starman
SFN Regular

Sweden
1613 Posts

Posted - 02/25/2007 :  09:05:22   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Starman a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Dr. Mabuse

Poor and misleading/misdirected analogies should be reserved for Creationists and political extremists to make, because they usually lack well-reasoned arguemts. Do you belong to either group?

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BigPapaSmurf
SFN Die Hard

3192 Posts

Posted - 02/25/2007 :  12:17:30   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send BigPapaSmurf a Private Message
Ill also point out that only a few Arabs live in Iraq/Iran/Afganistan.

"...things I have neither seen nor experienced nor heard tell of from anybody else; things, what is more, that do not in fact exist and could not ever exist at all. So my readers must not believe a word I say." -Lucian on his book True History

"...They accept such things on faith alone, without any evidence. So if a fraudulent and cunning person who knows how to take advantage of a situation comes among them, he can make himself rich in a short time." -Lucian critical of early Christians c.166 AD From his book, De Morte Peregrini
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend

Sweden
9666 Posts

Posted - 02/25/2007 :  15:00:11   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Send Dr. Mabuse an ICQ Message Send Dr. Mabuse a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Starman

quote:
Originally posted by Dr. Mabuse

Poor and misleading/misdirected analogies should be reserved for Creationists and political extremists to make, because they usually lack well-reasoned arguemts. Do you belong to either group?



In retrospect, that was a cheap shot. I apologise.

Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3

"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse

Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder.
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