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 New Statesman - Iran war imminent
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beskeptigal
SFN Die Hard

USA
3834 Posts

Posted - 02/22/2007 :  01:18:29   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send beskeptigal a Private Message
I suspect two things.

It could be this is just trying to make staying in Iraq more urgent or important. People are starting to say leave. Bush, Cheney, Rice, and probably Rumsfeld is still in on it don't want to pull out of Iraq. They don't care that Baghdad is exploding. The whole point of going in was to secure the oil fields for the big oil companies on our side, keep the oil companies from China and France (though that one is odd) from gaining access, and maintain permanent military bases in the region in case they have to get out of Saudi Arabia. Do you really think they want to pull out now? They would lose what they went in there for.

The second reason is they are planning on bombing Iran "back into the stone age". Didn't Seymour Hersh write that Israel's bombing of Lebanon was a trial of using the tactic on Iran? And that failed but since when does the Bush team understand the concept of a reality check on the feasibility of their plans succeeding?


Yep, found it.

Washington's interests in Israel's war; by SEYMOUR M. HERSH; Issue of 2006-08-21
quote:
The Israeli plan, according to the former senior intelligence official, was “the mirror image of what the United States has been planning for Iran.”
(The initial U.S. Air Force proposals for an air attack to destroy Iran's nuclear capacity, which included the option of intense bombing of civilian infrastructure targets inside Iran, have been resisted by the top leadership of the Army, the Navy, and the Marine Corps, according to current and former officials. They argue that the Air Force plan will not work and will inevitably lead, as in the Israeli war with Hezbollah, to the insertion of troops on the ground.)
[snip]
“We told Israel, ‘Look, if you guys have to go, we're behind you all the way. But we think it should be sooner rather than later—the longer you wait, the less time we have to evaluate and plan for Iran before Bush gets out of office.'





Edited by - beskeptigal on 02/22/2007 12:31:37
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard

USA
5310 Posts

Posted - 02/22/2007 :  04:54:52   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Gorgo a Private Message
quote:
Does that mean you can't think of anything non-religious Iran's government might have done that has exacerbated the situation?


Sure. They tried to run their own affairs. Live their own lives. And they're smaller than the U.S.

What else did "they" do?

I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter



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BigPapaSmurf
SFN Die Hard

3192 Posts

Posted - 02/22/2007 :  06:22:54   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send BigPapaSmurf a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Mycroft

quote:
Originally posted by Dr. Mabuse
You're wrong. BigPapaSmurf didn't say was against Arabs.



Nor did I claim he did, however what he did say was just as senseless.

quote:
Originally posted by Dr. Mabuse
In Iran it will be against a philosophy (religious philosophy).



Does that mean you can't think of anything non-religious Iran's government might have done that has exacerbated the situation?




Iran's governement is incapable of doing anything non-religious, all must pass before the caliphate/ayatollha or whatever they call it.

"...things I have neither seen nor experienced nor heard tell of from anybody else; things, what is more, that do not in fact exist and could not ever exist at all. So my readers must not believe a word I say." -Lucian on his book True History

"...They accept such things on faith alone, without any evidence. So if a fraudulent and cunning person who knows how to take advantage of a situation comes among them, he can make himself rich in a short time." -Lucian critical of early Christians c.166 AD From his book, De Morte Peregrini
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard

USA
5310 Posts

Posted - 02/22/2007 :  06:35:24   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Gorgo a Private Message
The U.S. gummint has twisted much of what Ahmadinejad said, for instance, saying that he wants to attack and destroy Israel, but Ahmadinejad is not in charge. The Ayayotollah and the clerics are in charge.

I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter



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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend

Sweden
9666 Posts

Posted - 02/22/2007 :  08:54:21   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Send Dr. Mabuse an ICQ Message Send Dr. Mabuse a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Mycroft

quote:
Originally posted by Dr. Mabuse
You're wrong. BigPapaSmurf didn't say was against Arabs.


Nor did I claim he did, however what he did say was just as senseless.
I was trying to point out that your analogy was flawed.
quote:


quote:
Originally posted by Dr. Mabuse
In Iran it will be against a philosophy (religious philosophy).

Does that mean you can't think of anything non-religious Iran's government might have done that has exacerbated the situation?

No. The only reason for a war against Iraq that I can see is that your president is F-ing insane.
Ok, one thing: They baited the American leadership with rethorics.

Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3

"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse

Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder.
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BigPapaSmurf
SFN Die Hard

3192 Posts

Posted - 02/22/2007 :  11:45:34   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send BigPapaSmurf a Private Message
Hell Id gladfly take "Saddam tried to kill my Daddy" as an excuse but nooo they have to BS everything.

"...things I have neither seen nor experienced nor heard tell of from anybody else; things, what is more, that do not in fact exist and could not ever exist at all. So my readers must not believe a word I say." -Lucian on his book True History

"...They accept such things on faith alone, without any evidence. So if a fraudulent and cunning person who knows how to take advantage of a situation comes among them, he can make himself rich in a short time." -Lucian critical of early Christians c.166 AD From his book, De Morte Peregrini
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beskeptigal
SFN Die Hard

USA
3834 Posts

Posted - 02/22/2007 :  11:56:48   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send beskeptigal a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by HalfMooner

Well, a "real war" with Iran never began, but a cold war of sorts has been going on since the revolution there. I repeat: Watch for US general officers to resign or retire early, as a sign of an impending hot war (invasion) with Iran. Since such an invasion would be practically impossible, some such officers, probably after after giving their advice, would quit. One or two might even speak out. That's the canary-in-the-mine to watch.



The resignations already happened. Quite a few as a matter of fact. But I think the ground war is not on these guys minds. Unfortunately they don't seem to care if the rate of attrition by death of our soldiers in Iraq speeds up if they take action in Iran. But it seems to me Hersh had it right last year. It's bombs they want to drop. It's bombs they see total domination by superior power. I suspect they know we don't have superior power in the streets.


Edited to add, we don't need a ground war. All that is needed is to keep the oil in the ground for now and keep the nuclear bomb factories out of the picture until we do want a ground war. We don't need to pump the oil into Western corporate tanks just yet. As long as China and Russia can't pump it into theirs.




Edited by - beskeptigal on 02/22/2007 12:30:25
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beskeptigal
SFN Die Hard

USA
3834 Posts

Posted - 02/22/2007 :  12:01:59   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send beskeptigal a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Mycroft

quote:
Originally posted by BigPapaSmurf
Well at least we can end the charade that we are not at war with Islam.



Just because Iran is an Islamic theocracy doesn't make war with Iran the equivalent of war against Islam. That makes about as much sense as saying Korea and Vietnam proves the US was at war with Asians.


Hey, we agree.

It's war for oil. The oil powers that be just use the religious right wing to bring out the masses on voting day.

Of course, I'm sure that includes stoking the rapture ready crowd for support of any military action and it wouldn't surprise me to see some behind the scenes or one level distanced from the government labeling this as a religious war.

Edited by - beskeptigal on 02/22/2007 12:24:09
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beskeptigal
SFN Die Hard

USA
3834 Posts

Posted - 02/22/2007 :  12:07:30   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send beskeptigal a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Gorgo

...

Right. They're not just at war with Asians or members of a particular religion, they're (along with others in the West) at war with anyone in the "Third World" that wish to run their own affairs.



"...they're (along with others in the West) at war with anyone in the "Third World" that wish to run their own affairs [and which have resources wanted by corporate and/or the rich and powerful in America]." We don't care about the Sudan too much.

And while Mycroft may see that as corporate paranoia, it doesn't include everyone in those companies or Ben and Jerry's and the evidence is the last 100 years of American history.




Edited by - beskeptigal on 02/22/2007 12:27:06
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beskeptigal
SFN Die Hard

USA
3834 Posts

Posted - 02/22/2007 :  12:13:40   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send beskeptigal a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by BigPapaSmurf

...
Suicide bombers are a Pandora's box and cannot be stopped even if ordained, the majority of them do not do it for religious reasons, but for revenge.

Sorry to take this off-topic, but if Iran didnt want Isreal destroyed we would not be having this conversation.

I think that first one is revenge and religious indoctrination combined.

Islamic terrorists have replaced communism. It's so right out of 1984 you'd almost think it was on purpose. I think it borders between 'convenient' and 'calculated', maybe even fluctuating back and forth a bit from time to time.

It also doesn't currently seem to be a war against all Islam. Rather it's against a particular kind of Islam.


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beskeptigal
SFN Die Hard

USA
3834 Posts

Posted - 02/22/2007 :  12:18:49   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send beskeptigal a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Mycroft

quote:
Originally posted by Dr. Mabuse
You're wrong. BigPapaSmurf didn't say was against Arabs.



Nor did I claim he did, however what he did say was just as senseless.

quote:
Originally posted by Dr. Mabuse
In Iran it will be against a philosophy (religious philosophy).



Does that mean you can't think of anything non-religious Iran's government might have done that has exacerbated the situation?


Dr Mab was pointing out ethnicity and ideology are not analogous. Your reply doesn't seem to indicate you understood that.

The 'Red' threat was very big in my Dad's day. We had many a go round because he was convinced we were in Vietnam to stop the dominoes and I wasn't convinced they were falling. And I was right I might add.






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beskeptigal
SFN Die Hard

USA
3834 Posts

Posted - 02/22/2007 :  12:20:39   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send beskeptigal a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Gorgo

quote:
Does that mean you can't think of anything non-religious Iran's government might have done that has exacerbated the situation?


Sure. They tried to run their own affairs. Live their own lives. And they're smaller than the U.S.

What else did "they" do?

"They tried to run their own affairs. Live their own lives. And they're smaller than the U.S. [and they have the third or second largest oil reserves after Iraq]"
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard

USA
5310 Posts

Posted - 02/22/2007 :  12:37:31   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Gorgo a Private Message
quote:
and they have the third or second largest oil reserves after Iraq][/b]"[/size=2]



But, if they would adhere to "free market" principles, that is, allow transnational corporations to be free to take whatever they want and allow about 50 U.S. military bases to be built, Bush wouldn't be forced to "democratize" them.

I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter



Edited by - Gorgo on 02/22/2007 12:38:24
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard

USA
5310 Posts

Posted - 02/22/2007 :  12:48:55   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Gorgo a Private Message
quote:
We don't care about the Sudan too much.


Well, lets not forget a good amount of terrorism against Korea and Cuba and Panama, none of which have large quantities of oil, as I recall.

I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter



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BigPapaSmurf
SFN Die Hard

3192 Posts

Posted - 02/22/2007 :  12:55:18   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send BigPapaSmurf a Private Message
Well, acutaully Cuba has significant off-shore gulf reserves. They just dont have the ability to mass tap them. Unfortunatly they may still have a nuke or two hiding around, so we force others to ignore them into the stone age.

"...things I have neither seen nor experienced nor heard tell of from anybody else; things, what is more, that do not in fact exist and could not ever exist at all. So my readers must not believe a word I say." -Lucian on his book True History

"...They accept such things on faith alone, without any evidence. So if a fraudulent and cunning person who knows how to take advantage of a situation comes among them, he can make himself rich in a short time." -Lucian critical of early Christians c.166 AD From his book, De Morte Peregrini
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