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 Did Jesus Really Exist? (Part 2)
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Boron10
Religion Moderator

USA
1264 Posts

Posted - 03/16/2002 :  04:37:12  Show Profile Send Boron10 a Private Message
Welcome, all to the continuation topic! Please continue all conversations here.

-me.

Lars_H
SFN Regular

Germany
630 Posts

Posted - 03/16/2002 :  05:16:59   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Lars_H a Private Message
Here is something an interesting article from ABC-news-online.

quote:

US researcher seeks to exhume 'Jesus Christ' in Kashmir


An American researcher who believes she has found the final resting place of Jesus Christ, is campaigning to exhume a body at a Muslim shrine in Indian-administered Kashmir for scientific tests.

Suzanne Marie Olsson, a New York-based researcher is currently in Srinagar, Kashmir's summer capital, studying the Muslim shrine of Rozabal.

While Muslims say Rozabal houses the tomb of Yuza Asaf, a Muslim saint, many researchers believe it contains the body of Jesus Christ.

To put an end to speculation, Ms Olsson has suggested exhuming the remains at Rozabal for DNA testing and carbon dating.

"This will trace him to his origin... and resolve the raging controversy over the identity of the place forever," she said.

Ms Olsson has already dug up a shrine at the Murree hill station in Pakistan under the supervision of archaeologists Ahmad Hassan Dani and Saida Rahman.

Murree is believed to be the resting place of Jesus' mother, Mary.

"The exhumed remains have been sent for the DNA testing and the report is awaited," she said.

"Now Rozabal holds the key.

"If the remains there are sent for testing and then tallied with the results of the Murree project, it will either establish the link between the two shrines as being of similar origin and thus authenticate the Marium-Jesus theory or prove it wrong for good."

However, her project has run into trouble with the managers of the Rozabal shrine, who are strongly opposed to its "desecration".

"We will never allow it," said Mohammed Amin, one of the managers.




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filthy
SFN Die Hard

USA
14408 Posts

Posted - 03/16/2002 :  06:10:23   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send filthy a Private Message
Lars, ya beat me to it!

I hope that they eventually do the dig. I don't know where they will get the DNA of the deity for a comparison, but it should be an interesting bit of grave robbing archeology in an historic place.

f

"Don't tell me your doubts; I've got enough doubts of my own. Tell me something you BELIEVE in!"
Brother Dave Gardner
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darwin alogos
SFN Regular

USA
532 Posts

Posted - 03/16/2002 :  09:06:20   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send darwin alogos a Private Message
First,I really want to thank Slater for reminding me one of the most important internal evidences we have of the authenticty the NT:The word Messiah translates as "the Liberator." Jesus not only didn't liberate the Jews he wasn't anointed unless you count a slut splashing oil on his tootsies;In the NT times women were looked on very chauvinisticlly and so the recording of the event, mentioned by Slater(Mt 26:6-13,and by the way she does pour "it on his head") would not be considered a plus to have in the "Gospel" unless IT ACTUALLY HAPPENED!You couple this with the fact that the first person that saw Jesus alive from the dead after his crucifixtion was none other than this "slut" as Slater so self-righteously calls her(Jn.20:11-18,and by the way Boron in verse 16 you have the meaning for the word "rabbi" the word means teacher and they wern't just from the Pharisees.Although we better check with Slater because I just noticed rabbi starts with "RA" the ancient Egyptian "sun god"?). Once again the account would hardly be a positive item to put in your report in the ancient world,UNLESS IT ACTUALLY HAPPENED!

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Slater
SFN Regular

USA
1668 Posts

Posted - 03/16/2002 :  13:31:39   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Slater a Private Message
I hate to even mention this but Kashmir is the very place that Flavius Philostratus said that Apollonius of Tyana learned about Krishna and is the place he returned to at the end of his days.

First,I really want to thank Slater for reminding me one of the most important internal evidences we have of the authenticty the NT:
Unfortuneately there is no such thing as "internal evidence" The fact that it is internal makes it a claim and not evidence. It is not proof it is what needs to be proved.
In the NT times women were looked on very chauvinisticlly and so the recording of the event, mentioned by Slater(Mt 26:6-13,and by the way she does pour "it on his head") would not be considered a plus to have in the "Gospel" unless IT ACTUALLY HAPPENED!
Unless we are talking about Elvis (the King, thankyouverymuch) having oil poured on your head or feet isn't a plus.
This would make every winning football coach Christ because they were anointed with Gator Ade.
And let us not forget Brilcream-a little dab'll do ya!

You couple this with the fact that the first person that saw Jesus alive from the dead after his crucifixtion was none other than this "slut" as Slater so self-righteously calls her(Jn.20:11-18,
Ooooooh, bad Slater. Calling a whore a slut. Not PC (or is that not JC?).
Need I point out that she is the one saw in only one of the surviving versions and one of the Gnostic ones. Every other version leaves her out.

and by the way Boron in verse 16 you have the meaning for the word "rabbi" the word means teacher and they wern't just from the Pharisees.Although we better check with Slater because I just noticed rabbi starts with "RA" the ancient Egyptian "sun god"?).
That might actually be an interesting point. I'll see if I can find out if the word has an Egyptian root or not.
I mentioned in an earlier post how there was an Egyptian "fad" in Rome. That is why Romans would say "Amen" to stress a point-- they were swearing to Ra (whom they didn't actually believe in, but it sounded cool).

Once again the account would hardly be a positive item to put in your report in the ancient world,UNLESS IT ACTUALLY HAPPENED!
You do realize that you have gone beyond being pathetic. You're well into being desperate. Mikvah and laundry are baptism while the Zoroasterian ceremony that is exactly like Xian baptism and goes by the name "baptism" and has the god John is not?
Salad dressing on the top of your head makes you "The Christ"? (Olive oil does have "good" cholesterol, maybe Jesus' hair made it good)

Quit farting around DA, prove there was a god/man called Jesus or stop claiming there was.


[/quote]

-------
It will sometimes be necessary to use falsehood for the benefit of those who need such a mode of treatment.
----Eusebius of Nicomedia,
[i]The Preparation of the Gospel[/i]
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ktesibios
SFN Regular

USA
505 Posts

Posted - 03/16/2002 :  23:44:21   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send ktesibios a Private Message
quote:

and by the way Boron in verse 16 you have the meaning for the word "rabbi" the word means teacher and they wern't just from the Pharisees.Although we better check with Slater because I just noticed rabbi starts with "RA" the ancient Egyptian "sun god"?).
That might actually be an interesting point. I'll see if I can find out if the word has an Egyptian root or not.
I mentioned in an earlier post how there was an Egyptian "fad" in Rome. That is why Romans would say "Amen" to stress a point-- they were swearing to Ra (whom they didn't actually believe in, but it sounded cool).




Umm... it might be worth pointing out that the "A" in "Ra" is a guttural, not a direct equivalent of our letter "A". The uniliteral hieroglyph for this sound is an arm shown with the forearm horizontal and the palm up; in the transliteration alphabet most commonly used today this sound is represented by a character which looks like an apostrophe, derived from the handwritten Hebrew letter "ayin".

So if the Hebrew for "rabbi" contains a guttural in the first syllable, perhaps there could be a connection. If not, it doesn't seem likely.

Also, Imn (Amen) was, at least originally, a deity distinct from Ra. Ra dates to Old Kingdom times; at the time Imn was a local Theban deity. With the rise to political prominence of Thebes in the Middle Kingdom and later, Imn became a hometown boy who made good, eventually being syncretically identified with Ra.

The tale of "Amen" being used by the Romans as an ironic way of swearing to Ra just seems a little too cute.

The Catholic Dictionary ( http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/01407b.htm ) says "As regards the etymology, Amen is a derivative from the Hebrew verb aman "to strengthen" or "Confirm". "

The American Heritge Dictionary ( http://www.bartleby.com/61/75/A0247500.html ) gives the etymology of "amen" as "Middle English, from Old English, from Late Latin mn, from Greek, from Hebrew 'mn, certainly, verily, from 'man, to be firm."

Boris Karloff died for your sins.
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Slater
SFN Regular

USA
1668 Posts

Posted - 03/17/2002 :  11:59:35   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Slater a Private Message
Well, cute or not the explanation does make a certain amount of sense.
Unfortunately, you know how these things go, the article wasn't on the web but in one of those small scholarly magazines that deal with mythology and tend to get tossed when you are finished reading them. Sorry.
Both Greece and Rome owned Israel and found the Jews to be unprofitable pains in the butt, making it less likely that they would want to adopt Jewish matters. They both also owned Egypt and enjoyed that immensely.
Rome did have an Egyptian fad exactly like the one that swept Europe in the 19th and early 20th Centuries (Did you know that Winston Churchill's mother had a hieroglyphic tattoo?) And the word Amen did start being used at that time. By "pagans" (the ever-resurrected savior Attis) originally; Christians took it up later.

It is supposed to mean (as per RC church) "so be it." The article's author equated it to the slang English words "cool" and "groovy". Neither of these words retaining it's original meaning but being used instead as a sign of approval. Amen also lost it's original meaning and also became a sign of approval.
"World without end, coooool!"
Or so the article said, it doesn't matter much one way or the other.


-------
It will sometimes be necessary to use falsehood for the benefit of those who need such a mode of treatment.
----Eusebius of Nicomedia,
[i]The Preparation of the Gospel[/i]
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darwin alogos
SFN Regular

USA
532 Posts

Posted - 03/18/2002 :  13:16:13   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send darwin alogos a Private Message
Unless we are talking about Elvis (the King, thankyouverymuch) having oil poured on your head or feet isn't a plus.
This would make every winning football coach Christ because they were anointed with Gator Ade.
And let us not forget Brilcream-a little dab'll do ya!

You couple this with the fact that the first person that saw Jesus alive from the dead after his crucifixtion was none other than this "slut" as Slater so self-righteously calls her(Jn.20:11-18,
Ooooooh, bad Slater. Calling a whore a slut. Not PC (or is that not JC?).
Need I point out that she is the one saw in only one of the surviving versions and one of the Gnostic ones. Every other version leaves her out.

Slater are you one of those alien implants The X-Files are always talking about?Or are you just speaking intounges

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Slater
SFN Regular

USA
1668 Posts

Posted - 03/18/2002 :  13:27:21   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Slater a Private Message
[/b]Slater are you one of those alien implants The X-Files are always talking about?Or are you just speaking intounges
[/b]

No, I'm one of those guys who ownes a library card. And I'm one of those guys who knowns that having your head anointed with oil means that you need a shampoo and doesn't make you a god.

But if you want to get nasty, Mr "tounges", we are still waiting on your proof of a historic Jesus. And waiting and waiting...

-------
It will sometimes be necessary to use falsehood for the benefit of those who need such a mode of treatment.
----Eusebius of Nicomedia,
The Preparation of the Gospel

Edited by - slater on 03/18/2002 13:30:09
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darwin alogos
SFN Regular

USA
532 Posts

Posted - 03/18/2002 :  13:33:40   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send darwin alogos a Private Message
First,I really want to thank Slater for reminding me one of the most important internal evidences we have of the authenticty the NT:
Unfortuneately there is no such thing as "internal evidence" The fact that it is internal makes it a claim and not evidence. It is not proof it is what needs to be proved.
[quote] Internal evidence: weighing the book (or article) in hand - Library Liaison atIndiana University-Bloomington Internal evidence: weighing the book (or article) in hand Before You Start Reading Contents. Scan the table of contents, introduction, index, and preface. Is the material relevant to your topic?
http://www.lib.waldenu.edu/judge_3.html

INTERNAL EVIDENCE

Internal evidence is the evidence supplied by the contents of the book itself. These contents are certain to bear the marks of a particular age and a cultural setting of the events they claim to record. The claim to authenticity will be sustained or rejected by its agreement with the historical setting, the substance and the consistency of the text.

HISTORICAL SETTING

With even a superficial reading, The Gospel of Barnabas cannot be said to breathe the first century atmosphere. It bears too many traces of European Medieval times, some of which are:

1. The mention of casks of wood or barrels washed and refilled with wine (GB 152)*. In the days of Jesus skins were used for wine. Casks or barrels of wood were unknown in ancient Palestine.

2. ‘The Virgin' (GB 219) as a title was not given to the mother of Jesus before 300AD.

It seems your opinions and theTHE REAL WORLD just can't come to an agreementPoor old Slater must be real hard seeing your myth crash.

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Slater
SFN Regular

USA
1668 Posts

Posted - 03/18/2002 :  16:03:40   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Slater a Private Message
Funny, you left out the first 2 questions that your reference site said you should ask
quote:

1) What is the purpose for writing the book or article, or for doing the research?
2) Objective reasoning.

* Does the author have a bias or make assumptions?
* Is the language free of emotion-laden words?
* Is the author's point of view objective and impartial?



That wipes out your myth.

-------
It will sometimes be necessary to use falsehood for the benefit of those who need such a mode of treatment.
----Eusebius of Nicomedia,
The Preparation of the Gospel

Edited by - slater on 03/18/2002 16:05:33
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Trish
SFN Addict

USA
2102 Posts

Posted - 03/18/2002 :  16:06:44   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Trish a Private Message
Is it just me or does DA declare victory everytime he posts something? I'm not sure I get this, I've seen nothing that I can even go look at to determine if he has evidentiary support for his proclamation that Jesus was a real live living breathing person that walked around the Roman Empire for 30+ years. Is it just me?

---
...no one has ever found a 4.5 billion year old stone artifact (at the right geological stratum) with the words "Made by God."
No Sense of Obligation by Matt Young

Edited by - Trish on 03/18/2002 16:07:25
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DVF
Skeptic Friend

USA
96 Posts

Posted - 03/18/2002 :  20:52:05   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send DVF a Private Message
Yawn, rehash, snore.

No Trish, it isn't just you.

I was folowing this debate with some interest for awhile, but at this point I feel inclined to yawn, scratch, and go read something else. I will say at least that one individual has thoroughly and definitively discredited the historic jesus notion. Thanks Darwin.

"Know what, if you were in a building, and it was on fire, I'd rescue you."
- My Son 3/5/2002
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@tomic
Administrator

USA
4607 Posts

Posted - 03/18/2002 :  21:01:54   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit @tomic's Homepage Send @tomic a Private Message
I'd like to add that DA is a perfect example of a creationist as someone posted and I linked to in the previous thread.(By the way good job Boron, long threads slow SFN down considerably.) And just recently DA again cut and pasted things he really knows nothing about and also pasted selectively to try and make a point that, as slater showed, wasn't there at all. The original question posed by this topic remains without any proof to support JC's existence regardless of the severe bruising DA must have undergone due to all that patting of himself on the back.

@tomic

Gravity, not just a good idea...it's the law!
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Slater
SFN Regular

USA
1668 Posts

Posted - 03/19/2002 :  09:43:23   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Slater a Private Message
Yeah, DVF, this is getting boring.
But we do have this nice new folder so let's try a new argument in it.

Xian "experts" date the earliest Gospels of the NT at between 70-90 CE. Somehow being only a few generations removed is supposed to lend them authenticity.

However there were once many more gospels than there are today. They were all written during the same time period as the ones that were kept. They were all different. Different stories, different miracles, a different ending in some, and all had a different philosophy being taught by Jesus.

They were all-if DA's dating is to be believed- bibles used by the first Christians. And due to the number of books it would have had to have been the majority of Christians who used the now banned versions.

One version, The Acts of John, actually is written in the first person and claims to be an eye-witness account. The Jesus in this one spends his life shape shifting and floating a few inches in the air. Impossible yes, but no more so than the magic tricks Jesus performs in the surviving gospels.

If the proposed criteria of authenticity of the gospels is date of authorship and an internal claim of knowledge of Jesus. And if the inclusion of magic is not taken as disqualifying the assertion of historicity. Then you are left with a lot more books that meet this criteria than are accepted as telling the actual story.

The majority of bible books that meet DA's proposed criteria are banned by Christians and declared false. False to the point that supporters in the 300's were put to death, so you know that the church wasn't wishy-washy about their being wrong. So that means that the criteria DA uses to establish Jesus as an historical personage is incorrect as it also establishes the false Jesus as an historic person just as easily.


-------
It will sometimes be necessary to use falsehood for the benefit of those who need such a mode of treatment.
----Eusebius of Nicomedia,
The Preparation of the Gospel

Edited by - slater on 03/19/2002 09:47:21
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Slater
SFN Regular

USA
1668 Posts

Posted - 03/22/2002 :  12:59:52   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Slater a Private Message
So DA, are you having trouble finding a cut and paste file to answer this?

You arguments have "proved" the "false Christ", that would make you guilty of heresy.

-------
It will sometimes be necessary to use falsehood for the benefit of those who need such a mode of treatment.
----Eusebius of Nicomedia,
The Preparation of the Gospel
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