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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard

USA
5310 Posts

Posted - 06/25/2006 :  01:07:11   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Gorgo a Private Message
What I ought to say here is that it would be up to you to prove why that's a relevant question.

It, however, should be enough for our purposes here, since I don't think either of us are experts, and that even experts disagree, that I have conceded that Watada will probably be found guilty, even if he has no sentence imposed on him.


I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter



Edited by - Gorgo on 09/19/2006 03:39:16
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marfknox
SFN Die Hard

USA
3739 Posts

Posted - 06/25/2006 :  07:20:38   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit marfknox's Homepage  Send marfknox an AOL message Send marfknox a Private Message
Doesn't the fact that Watada joined the Military in 2003 - after we invaded Iraq - further reveal his integrity? He obviously wasn't one of those people blindly joined for benefits on the idea that we'd remain in peacetime for the duration of his service. Many more aspects of the war in Iraq have come to light since then, so the guy came to the conclusion after he joined that the war in Iraq is illegal. But since he's part of the military, by refusing to go he could face prosecution with even the possibility of charges of mutiny. Not to mention that by going so public he'll be a widely hated figure to many Americans. The vast majority of military sent to Iraq don't die, especially college-educated officers. If he was a coward, he'd be much more sensible to take his chances in Iraq. And if he's not a coward, then he is a brave man of integrity.

And sure, even if the war is at some point officially declared criminal, mere soldiers don't get prosecuted. There is no chance in hell that Wataba, if he went to Iraq and just followed orders, would ever be prosecuted for war crimes. But that's hardly the point. It is the principle of the thing. He decided to do research. He decided to use his own mind and conscience and now he cannot be a party to something immoral and illegal and still live with himself. He is refusing to be treated like a cog in a machine.

He's right - all people have that choice. Even liberals today parrot the "Support the troops." line as if the troops themselves have no choice. Don't get me wrong - I am sympathetic to those men and women who are sent to Iraq. Some are my friends and family. The legality and morality of any act, small or large, in a military conflict like Iraq is complicated, and it is absurd to expect every person in the military to have the intelligence, time and resources to research the legality of everything they are ordered to do. But the opposite extreme is to act as if all those people are mindless machine parts. They are human beings will freedom of choice and will. Some go to Iraq blindly, with no opinions of their own. Some of them go to Iraq thinking it really is the right thing to do, and more power to them. But I'm sure many others go to Iraq thinking it is wrong, but they fear the consequences of refusing.

Robb wrote:
quote:
So you beleive that if we stop fighting terrorism it will go away? Or are you saying that the real terrorist is the US and Islamic terrorists are justified in killing non military individuals?
Terminology like "terrorism" is so loaded. How about simply looking at it like this: before the invasion of Iraq, Iraq was an oppressive regime, but it was also internally stable. People knew exactly who and what to fear and how to stay out of trouble. Then the USA invaded based on what we all now know were false pretences. Over 2500 US troops have died, over 20,000 have been injured, and 38,000-42,000 Iragi civilians are dead (12 times the number of civilians killed in 9-11.) The insugency is 3 times stronger than it was 3 years ago and showing no signs of waning. Now Iraqis don't know when and where violence will erupt or who will attack them. They don't know what jobs are safe to take. They don't know what stores are safe to shop in. Many can't move freely within cities to work and univerisities because of time-consuming checkpoints. As for the safety of Americans, the USA is more hated than ever by radical Muslims, which in my opinion, makes us in even greater danger for future attacks.

This is not the way to fight Islamic extremists. This is not the way to make the USA safer. This war has only led to wasted lives and wasted money. It is appalling. Thank goodness for people like Watada. I hope his actions do inspire more of the same.

"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong

Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com

Edited by - marfknox on 06/25/2006 07:24:15
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard

USA
5310 Posts

Posted - 06/25/2006 :  08:38:57   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Gorgo a Private Message
Before the sanctions, Iraq wasn't the worst place in the world to live. Health care was practically free, there was no abject poverty, women were educated, literacy was high, and people sometimes even traveled to other countries to get better educations. If you didn't get on Saddam's bad side, and you didn't get sent to a U.S.-backed war that is.

Like Yugoslavia and other countries, the West does not like "Third World"countries on independent paths using their own resources to improve the lives of their citizens and they're working to tear the country apart just as they did Yugoslavia. They were close to "first-world" status before the sanctions, and they'll never get there now.

I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter



Edited by - Gorgo on 06/25/2006 08:39:35
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard

USA
5310 Posts

Posted - 07/06/2006 :  16:12:53   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Gorgo a Private Message
An update from http://www.thankyoult.org/

'On July 5, U.S. Army First Lt. Ehren K. Watada was formally charged with three articles of the Uniform Code of Military Justice: two counts of contempt towards officials (Article 88) - specifically President G. W. Bush, three counts of conduct unbecoming an officer and a gentleman (Article 133), and one count of missing movement (Article 87). If convicted of all six charges by a general court-martial, Lt. Watada could be sentenced to over seven years in a military prison.

Lt. Watada's lawyer, Eric Seitz, said: "We expected the missing movement charge, but we are somewhat astounded by the contempt and conduct unbecoming charges. These additional charges open up the substance of Lt. Watada's statements for review and raise important First Amendment issues. We are delighted that the Army has given us the opportunity to litigate these questions."'

I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter



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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard

USA
5310 Posts

Posted - 09/19/2006 :  03:34:41   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Gorgo a Private Message
An interesting article about how Japanese-Americans are reacting, and an update:

http://www.zmag.org/content/showarticle.cfm?SectionID=51&ItemID=10985

What I didn't realize, is that he had offered to resign or participate in the illegal war against the people of Afghanistan.

I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter



Edited by - Gorgo on 09/19/2006 03:39:34
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard

USA
5310 Posts

Posted - 01/17/2007 :  10:02:42   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Gorgo a Private Message
http://www.couragetoresist.org/x/content/view/206/1/

No surprise, but the military court has shown that it is not about justice, or integrity, but about promoting an agenda. By law, the U.S. can do whatever it wants, and soldiers must obey, and speak as though they like it.

I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter



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Neurosis
SFN Regular

USA
675 Posts

Posted - 01/17/2007 :  13:50:13   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Send Neurosis an AOL message Send Neurosis a Private Message
The 'war' on terror is not really a war it is an euphemism. It is not a war on Iraq it is a war in Iraq. It requires no more of a 'war declaration' than the 'war on drugs'. I have a problem with the Iraq war and the general decisions of this current administration, but I am sure that there bases are covered. It would take a large and correctly positioned effort to actually expose and punish the illegal actions of the administation.

I think that since the 'war' is not a war it cannot be classed as a war-crime. I have a mixed opinion about the lieutenant. First, as several have pointed out, he joined after the 'war' began and thus, knew what he was getting into if he was selected to go. Second, he has a differing moral stance and has the guts to voice it, even when facing the nation, literally.

If I had to side, I would say that he is in the wrong. Joining the military is a contract. Once joined, one gets money, support, and even education assistence. In exchange, the country gets a soldier they train to do a job. This lieutenant had foreknowledge of his, literally, job duty. He agreed to those circumstance and now reneged. He is in the wrong even if the government is also, which they are in so many ways.

Facts! Pssh, you can prove anything even remotely true with facts.
- Homer Simpson

[God] is an infinite nothing from nowhere with less power over our universe than the secretary of agriculture.
- Prof. Frink

Lisa: Yes, but wouldn't you rather know the truth than to delude yourself for happiness?
Marge: Well... um.... [goes outside to jump on tampoline with Homer.]
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tomk80
SFN Regular

Netherlands
1278 Posts

Posted - 01/17/2007 :  16:26:36   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit tomk80's Homepage Send tomk80 a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Gorgo
Like Yugoslavia and other countries, the West does not like "Third World"countries on independent paths using their own resources to improve the lives of their citizens and they're working to tear the country apart just as they did Yugoslavia. They were close to "first-world" status before the sanctions, and they'll never get there now.


Forgive me for my ignorance, but how does the West impede the different fractions of Yugoslavia going "on independent paths using their own resources to improve the lives of their citizens". How was Yugoslavia teired apart by outside intervention?

Do you actually know anything about the history of Yugoslavia?

Tom

`Contrariwise,' continued Tweedledee, `if it was so, it might be; and if it were so, it would be; but as it isn't, it ain't. That's logic.'
-Through the Looking Glass by Lewis Caroll-
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard

USA
5310 Posts

Posted - 01/18/2007 :  13:29:37   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Gorgo a Private Message
quote:

Do you actually know anything about the history of Yugoslavia?



Probably not enough. If you wanted to start a thread stating some kind of position with facts to back up what you say, I might consider replying, although I have no time these days, and less starting next week.

Suffice it to say that what I have seen that supports the demonization of the Serbs beyond the other participants is rumor and propaganda, and there is good reason to at least strongly suspect what I've stated here and in other places about Clinton's crimes.

I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter



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marfknox
SFN Die Hard

USA
3739 Posts

Posted - 01/18/2007 :  17:28:05   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit marfknox's Homepage  Send marfknox an AOL message Send marfknox a Private Message
From the last article posted by Gorgo:
quote:
Lt. Watada is scheduled to go on trial at Fort Lewis, Washington on February 5. He will face two years imprisonment for “missing movement,” and four additional years imprisonment – one for each count of “conduct unbecoming an officer” – for his public statements critical of the Iraq War.
It should be interesting to see what he ends up getting, considering that
William Calley was the only officer convicted in the My Lai Massacre, most Americans were outraged at the conviction, and due to intervention by Nixon and the military, he only served 3.5 years of house arrest.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malai_Massacre
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Calley

Nice to see our priorities are straight, eh?


"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong

Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com

Edited by - marfknox on 01/18/2007 17:28:31
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marfknox
SFN Die Hard

USA
3739 Posts

Posted - 01/18/2007 :  17:31:26   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit marfknox's Homepage  Send marfknox an AOL message Send marfknox a Private Message
Neurosis wrote:
quote:
First, as several have pointed out, he joined after the 'war' began and thus, knew what he was getting into if he was selected to go.
As I pointed out, the fact that the guy joined in 2003 means he didn't know what he was getting into since a lot more info about America's supposed reasons for invading Iraq have come out since then.

quote:
Joining the military is a contract. Once joined, one gets money, support, and even education assistence. In exchange, the country gets a soldier they train to do a job. This lieutenant had foreknowledge of his, literally, job duty. He agreed to those circumstance and now reneged.
Bullshit – circumstances did change between when he joined and when he took a stand against the war (or military action if you want to get technical about it not being a “war”). He's not a conscientious objector, he's someone who had unfortunately already gotten into a contract when all the bullshit came out and he was then put in the shitty position of having to continue to do a job he thought was illegal or just taking the easy way out and letting it slide until his contract was over.

quote:
He is in the wrong even if the government is also, which they are in so many ways.
If a soldier is ordered by their superior to do something he knows is illegal, he is within his rights and in fact is supposed to disobey that order. That is the law. Soldiers aren't slaves. No legal contract can require you to break a law.

"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong

Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com

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tomk80
SFN Regular

Netherlands
1278 Posts

Posted - 01/18/2007 :  17:52:01   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit tomk80's Homepage Send tomk80 a Private Message
There you go

Tom

`Contrariwise,' continued Tweedledee, `if it was so, it might be; and if it were so, it would be; but as it isn't, it ain't. That's logic.'
-Through the Looking Glass by Lewis Caroll-
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Neurosis
SFN Regular

USA
675 Posts

Posted - 01/18/2007 :  19:21:50   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Send Neurosis an AOL message Send Neurosis a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by marfknox

As I pointed out, the fact that the guy joined in 2003 means he didn't know what he was getting into since a lot more info about America's supposed reasons for invading Iraq have come out since then.


And today more than yesterday. I agree, but people in an office building get more info on pojects as they progress also.
quote:

quote:
Joining the military is a contract. Once joined, one gets money, support, and even education assistence. In exchange, the country gets a soldier they train to do a job. This lieutenant had foreknowledge of his, literally, job duty. He agreed to those circumstance and now reneged.
Bullshit – circumstances did change between when he joined and when he took a stand against the war (or military action if you want to get technical about it not being a “war”). He's not a conscientious objector, he's someone who had unfortunately already gotten into a contract when all the bullshit came out and he was then put in the shitty position of having to continue to do a job he thought was illegal or just taking the easy way out and letting it slide until his contract was over.


Well as I said I agree with him being in a shitty place and I agree that taking a stand for his beliefs is a noble thing. I am just saying that he is breaching a contract, and would have to show prior breach by the government or face the consequences. Still brave, still honorable, but that doesn't mean he will come out is the clear.
quote:

If a soldier is ordered by their superior to do something he knows is illegal, he is within his rights and in fact is supposed to disobey that order. That is the law. Soldiers aren't slaves. No legal contract can require you to break a law.



I agree. That is why I said he must show that the government is ordering him to perform something illegal, but that would be very hard to do because most people (and especially in this admin) cover their arse, even when it is exposed they deflect (Abu Ghraib anyone?). Point being he signed up knowing he would see military action. Military action he may diagree with.

Facts! Pssh, you can prove anything even remotely true with facts.
- Homer Simpson

[God] is an infinite nothing from nowhere with less power over our universe than the secretary of agriculture.
- Prof. Frink

Lisa: Yes, but wouldn't you rather know the truth than to delude yourself for happiness?
Marge: Well... um.... [goes outside to jump on tampoline with Homer.]
Edited by - Neurosis on 01/18/2007 19:22:18
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