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tomato
New Member
Korea
2 Posts |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
 Posted - 06/08/2008 : 03:57:28 [Permalink]
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Hi Tomato and welcome to SFN!
There has never been any empirical evidence that 'mediums' have any gift beyond that of gab. Having never heard of Mrs. Piper, I ran a google on her and found no more than the usual concerning 'most any psychic. And Wikipedia has nothing about her.
That is not to say that she was a grifter in the form of our modern, professional examples -- Edward, Browne & the rest. Many, perhaps even most, really believe that they can do this. But if indeed they could, then why all the question beyond knowing the deceased's name?
Here is a brief article on the subject.
I might also remind: it has yet to be shown that there is any sort of an after-life.
Interesting question, though. I'll dig a little deeper into it later.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist! 
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| Edited by - filthy on 06/08/2008 09:55:57 |
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Simon
SFN Regular
USA
1992 Posts |
Posted - 06/08/2008 : 08:28:47 [Permalink]
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Hello Tomato; welcome to the SFN.
It is difficult to make an opinion.
It seems to me that she was practising cold reading. It can be subtle and difficult to realize (John Edward is a fine example of that, he has practised so in front of thousands of people and manages to convince a majority of them).
It would be made even easier as the people investigating her were male academics (of relatively well-of background at the time) and that she was a female of modest origin with no formal education.
According to the presumption of the time; it would be easier for them to believe that she actually had the powers she said she have rather than that she could out-wit them.
As for her motivations... well she was getting paid.
Also, she seems to have come from a rather conservative background -a bit oppressive, maybe, for a woman.
Surely being a medium brought her more attention than she ever received. She probably felt more important than she ever did before. Psychologically, that can be a very powerful motivation. |
Look again at that dot. That's here. That's home. That's us. On it everyone you love, everyone you know, everyone you ever heard of, every human being who ever was, lived out their lives. The aggregate of our joy and suffering, thousands of confident religions, ideologies, and economic doctrines, every hunter and forager, every hero and coward, every creator and destroyer of civilization, every king and peasant, every young couple in love, every mother and father, hopeful child, inventor and explorer, every teacher of morals, every corrupt politician, every "superstar," every "supreme leader," every saint and sinner in the history of our species lived there – on a mote of dust suspended in a sunbeam.
Carl Sagan - 1996 |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13476 Posts |
Posted - 06/08/2008 : 09:12:38 [Permalink]
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Interesting case.
First off, I reject the authority of William James. I do not question is sincerity, but as a philosopher, he was likely not an expert in spotting all possible (even if sincerely used) tricks.
The controls used by the other researchers are commendable, but not nearly at the level of control that would be used today. I don't mean to say that Piper was a fraud. She may have been psychic, but given what we know today after many attempts to verify psychic abilities it is more likely that she really was a gifted cold reader and convinced of her own abilities which were dubbed psychic.
In her biography there is this interesting paragraph which I quote:
| She was usually weakest precisely where the pseudo-medium is most successful. She was vague about dates, preferred to give Christian names to surnames, and mostly concentrated on the sitters diseases, personal idiosyncrasies, and characters. On the other hand, she often failed to answer test questions. For example, the spirit of "Hannah Wild" manifesting through her could not describe the contents of the sealed letter she wrote before her death. |
Bolding mine.
I think it important to note that this account of her weakness is precisely what you would expect from a cold reader. That she did not resort to spirit boxes and all of the other falderal that were in use back in the early days of spiritualism which some investigators were skeptical of, also served to convince them of the genuineness of her abilities, and may of caused them to overlook what might be obvious to investigators today. For example, left out of the account is Pipers hit/miss ratio. Hits are always impressive and misses tend to be quickly forgotten. There is no suggestion in the literature available online that this important statistic was calculated or even taken into consideration.
Sitting here, it is impossible to say if she had psychic ability or not. It isn't as though she is available for testing using today's methods.
There is some reason for doubt given the perfect description of a cold reading in her biography and the lack of any modern day evidence that anyone has psychic abilities.
Edited to repair the link.
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Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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bngbuck
SFN Addict
USA
2437 Posts |
Posted - 06/09/2008 : 01:35:20 [Permalink]
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Filthy.....
| Having never heard of Mrs. Piper, I ran a google on her and found no more than the usual concerning 'most any psychic. And Wikipedia has nothing about her. |
wiki link
In 1909 William James published Expériences d'un Psychiste, a book which he relates many experiments that he had with the medium Leonora Piper. His first commentary about Piper, however, was published in Science[12]:
In the trances of this medium, I cannot resist the conviction that knowledge appears which she has never gained by the ordinary waking use of her eyes and ears and wits. |
William James gave more detailed informations about his first experiments with Piper in the Proceedings of the Society for Psychical Research:(Wm. James quote as above)
Link to The Red Pill, gives, not surprisingly, a bio of Piper.
Randi's encyclopedia's piece is interesting!
Piper was, arguably, the most thoroughly investigated "medium" of all time. But as Randi has pointed out many times, scientists have often been fooled by magicians and cold readers.
It is a damned shame that she did not practice her "profession" in the same current era in which Randi actively investigates and exposes cold readers. She appears to have been remarkably open to investigation. If she had been capable of fooling Randi, million dollar prize aside, it would have been a world-shaking event! I personally don't think there has ever been a charlatan capable of fooling Randi!
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 06/09/2008 : 03:48:28 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by bngbuck
Filthy.....
| Having never heard of Mrs. Piper, I ran a google on her and found no more than the usual concerning 'most any psychic. And Wikipedia has nothing about her. |
wiki link
In 1909 William James published Expériences d'un Psychiste, a book which he relates many experiments that he had with the medium Leonora Piper. His first commentary about Piper, however, was published in Science[12]:
In the trances of this medium, I cannot resist the conviction that knowledge appears which she has never gained by the ordinary waking use of her eyes and ears and wits. |
William James gave more detailed informations about his first experiments with Piper in the Proceedings of the Society for Psychical Research:(Wm. James quote as above)
Link to The Red Pill, gives, not surprisingly, a bio of Piper.
Randi's encyclopedia's piece is interesting!
Piper was, arguably, the most thoroughly investigated "medium" of all time. But as Randi has pointed out many times, scientists have often been fooled by magicians and cold readers.
It is a damned shame that she did not practice her "profession" in the same current era in which Randi actively investigates and exposes cold readers. She appears to have been remarkably open to investigation. If she had been capable of fooling Randi, million dollar prize aside, it would have been a world-shaking event! I personally don't think there has ever been a charlatan capable of fooling Randi!
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Hmm. Missed the Wiki link -- getting careless I guess. Or senile, either will do.
This is why I think that she was one of the sincere ones. Those don't have to 'fake' anything because they feel secure in their belief and, after years of practice, they do their thing as naturally as eating poke salad (which I am having this morning for breakfast -- gotta keep that cholestrol level up).
Like Kil, I don't trust James' investigations, at least partly due to the era they were done in. Today, a skilled cold reader can make you sit down and wonder; back then, before modern testing for this sort of thing (Randi, et al.), one could convince 'most anyone of 'most anything, and did.
Thanks for the links. Don't have time to chase them this morning as I'm off to look for a motorcycle, but will later on.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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bngbuck
SFN Addict
USA
2437 Posts |
Posted - 06/09/2008 : 10:55:29 [Permalink]
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Filthy.....
Recipe for poke salad, please! Sounds fascinating, I've got to try it!
I have a pretty impressive Southern cuisine repertoire, and I want to add to it! |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 06/09/2008 : 12:05:21 [Permalink]
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tomato asked:
| Was she a genuine medium? |
No.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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Simon
SFN Regular
USA
1992 Posts |
Posted - 06/09/2008 : 12:31:24 [Permalink]
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Well; she quite certainly existed. And, according to everything I read; very probably earned her life as a medium.
So, yes, she was a genuine medium.
But, could she really communicate with the dead or did she have any other paranormal abilities?
I don't see any compelling to believe so.
(and yes; I am being smart-assed; merely a kind teasing at Dude brevity though. |
Look again at that dot. That's here. That's home. That's us. On it everyone you love, everyone you know, everyone you ever heard of, every human being who ever was, lived out their lives. The aggregate of our joy and suffering, thousands of confident religions, ideologies, and economic doctrines, every hunter and forager, every hero and coward, every creator and destroyer of civilization, every king and peasant, every young couple in love, every mother and father, hopeful child, inventor and explorer, every teacher of morals, every corrupt politician, every "superstar," every "supreme leader," every saint and sinner in the history of our species lived there – on a mote of dust suspended in a sunbeam.
Carl Sagan - 1996 |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
 Posted - 06/09/2008 : 13:39:21 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by bngbuck
Filthy.....
Recipe for poke salad, please! Sounds fascinating, I've got to try it!
I have a pretty impressive Southern cuisine repertoire, and I want to add to it!
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Okee-dokey, but you might regret asking.... 
Poke is a weed that grows pretty much everywhere down south, and it is as poisonous as it can be. It produces bright, red/purple berrys; do not eat them, they will kill you.
That said, gather a couple pounds of young poke leaves, wash them well, and boil them three times for 20 minutes or so, starting with fresh, cold water each time.
While this detoxfication process is going on, fry up a goodish quanity of bacon or my own preference: fatback, and set it aside. Hard boil a couple or thre eggs and also set aside. When the third boil is done, wash the poke again in cold water and toss it into a big skillet. Put in the bacon grease (maybe a quarter of a cup or more), a little water, and wet fry until nice & tender, & most of the water's gone. Chop up the bacon & eggs and mix them in, then season 'er up and you're ready to eat even better than the rich honkeys.
....poke salad is my bread and meat, and will be 'till I die. ~~ Johnny Cash Goin' to Memphis
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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| Edited by - filthy on 06/09/2008 13:51:55 |
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bngbuck
SFN Addict
USA
2437 Posts |
Posted - 06/09/2008 : 14:59:00 [Permalink]
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Filthy....
Thanks so much for the recipe. I intend to prepare it tonight, but substituting another leaf from the supermarket. I really like the sound of the other ingredients and the preparation, and I think I'll make it with spinach!
From wiki: Many authorities advise against eating pokeweed even after thrice boiling, as traces of the toxin may still remain. For many decades, poke salad has been a staple of southern U.S. cuisine, despite campaigns by doctors who believed pokeweed remained toxic even after being boiled. The lingering cultural significance of Poke salad can be found in the 1969 hit song "Polk Salad Annie," written and performed by Tony Joe White, and famously covered by Elvis Presley and the El Orbits. Pokeberry juice is added to other juices for jelly by those who believe it can relieve the pain of arthritis.
Toxic Principle Saponins, believed to be the primary toxic constituents, are present in the berry juice and other parts. Other toxic constituents have also been identified including the alkaloid phytolaccine (in small amounts) and the alkaloid phytolaccotoxin, as well as a glycoprotein. When pokeweed is used as food, the water in which it is boiled must be discarded.
The eating of nonfatal quantities of poke, perhaps of the shoots, may cause retching or vomiting after two hours or more. These signs may be followed by dyspnea, perspiration, spasms, severe purging, prostration, tremors, watery diarrhea (often bloody) and, sometimes, convulsions. If a fatal quantity is eaten, perhaps including roots, the above signs are followed by paralysis of the respiratory organs and other narcotic effects, culminating in the death of the poisoned person.
According to W.H. Lewis and M.P.F. Elvin-Lewis (Medical Botany, 1977), the most serious health hazard from Phytolacca comes from a very toxic plant protein called a lectin. Lectins can cause red blood cells to clump together (agglutinate) and may stimulate abnormal cell division in quiescent B and T-lymphocytes. Lectins are the primary toxic principle in the world's deadliest seeds, including the castor bean (Ricinus communis) and prayer bead (Abrus precatorius). |
You're a brave man, Filthy, but to each his own! If either the poke or your coronary arteries get you, I'll try and find a good medium to contact you and ask you.....WHY?
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| Edited by - bngbuck on 06/09/2008 18:17:32 |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 06/09/2008 : 16:44:55 [Permalink]
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My grandmother used to make a really kick-ass poke salad and I wish I had her recipe. But I come close with fatback and sauteed chilis & onions in it. I've been eating poke all of my life and have no intention of stopping at this late date, the science be damned.
There's lots of poke near me but I don't keep it as thinned out nearly as much I'd like. I can't eat all that grease any more, so it's now a once in a while sort of thing.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13476 Posts |
Posted - 06/09/2008 : 18:03:50 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by bngbuck
Filthy....
Thanks so much for the recipe. I intend to prepare it tonight, but substituting another leaf from the supermarket. I really like the sound of the other ingredients and the preparation, and I think I'll make it with spinach!
From wiki: Many authorities advise against eating pokeweed even after thrice boiling, as traces of the toxin may still remain. For many decades, poke salad has been a staple of southern U.S. cuisine, despite campaigns by doctors who believed pokeweed remained toxic even after being boiled. The lingering cultural significance of Poke salad can be found in the 1969 hit song "Polk Salad Annie," written and performed by Tony Joe White, and famously covered by Elvis Presley and the El Orbits. Pokeberry juice is added to other juices for jelly by those who believe it can relieve the pain of arthritis.
Toxic Principle Saponins, believed to be the primary toxic constituents, are present in the berry juice and other parts. Other toxic constituents have also been identified including the alkaloid phytolaccine (in small amounts) and the alkaloid phytolaccotoxin, as well as a glycoprotein. When pokeweed is used as food, the water in which it is boiled must be discarded.
The eating of nonfatal quantities of poke, perhaps of the shoots, may cause retching or vomiting after two hours or more. These signs may be followed by dyspnea, perspiration, spasms, severe purging, prostration, tremors, watery diarrhea (often bloody) and, sometimes, convulsions. If a fatal quantity is eaten, perhaps including roots, the above signs are followed by paralysis of the respiratory organs and other narcotic effects, culminating in the death of the poisoned person.
According to W.H. Lewis and M.P.F. Elvin-Lewis (Medical Botany, 1977), the most serious health hazard from Phytolacca comes from a very toxic plant protein called a lectin. Lectins can cause red blood cells to clump together (agglutinate) and may stimulate abnormal cell division in quiescent B and T-lymphocytes. Lectins are the primary toxic principle in the world's deadliest seeds, including the castor bean (Ricinus communis) and prayer bead (Abrus precatorius). |
You're a brave man, Filthy, but to each his own! If either the poke or your coronary arties get you, I'll try and find a good medium to contact you and ask you.....WHY?
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The recipe, accept for all of the boiling, looks like it would be great for collard greens too. I think with collard greens you would want to simply boil the leaves until they are very tender. Then proceed with the rest of the recipe. |
Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 06/09/2008 : 18:21:28 [Permalink]
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| The recipe, accept for all of the boiling, looks like it would be great for collard greens too. I think with collard greens you would want to simply boil the leaves until they are very tender. Then proceed with the rest of the recipe. |
And that too, is an old & greasy, southern recipe. Boiling should be kept to a minimum because the collards will finish off in the skillet. I don't think that spinach will work as well, though. How good it is to see white trash cuisine being appreciated!
Poke salad is a harbinger and a celebration of Spring.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13476 Posts |
Posted - 06/09/2008 : 18:31:37 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by filthy
| The recipe, accept for all of the boiling, looks like it would be great for collard greens too. I think with collard greens you would want to simply boil the leaves until they are very tender. Then proceed with the rest of the recipe. |
And that too, is an old & greasy, southern recipe. Boiling should be kept to a minimum because the collards will finish off in the skillet. I don't think that spinach will work as well, though. How good it is to see white trash cuisine being appreciated!
Poke salad is a harbinger and a celebration of Spring.
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Yeah on the boiling and you're right about the spinach which is why I suggested the greens. I had collard greens along with a slab-o baby back ribs and a bit of cornbread just last night. Yummmmm....  |
Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 06/09/2008 : 20:31:00 [Permalink]
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Simon said:
| merely a kind teasing at Dude brevity though. |
Well, kil will yell at me if I start off by responding to these kind of posts with, "How f-ing retarded to you have to be ask that question? You have to find one "genuine medium" before you can even pose your question about this person. Get back to me when you remove your head from your ass and learn to think."
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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medium Lenora Piper
