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bngbuck
SFN Addict

USA
2437 Posts

Posted - 06/11/2008 :  15:29:58  Show Profile Send bngbuck a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I would like to solicit opinion from any and all interested in the upcoming election. QUESTION:

Do you believe that Bush, Cheney, and the neoCon cabal; comprising what is still the Powers That Be in America, are cynical enough to fake a terrorist attack on America (not nearly the scope of 9/11, but big enough to be scary) in an attempt to assure the election of John McCain and the continuation of Republican Policies?


I realize the extreme difficulty of carrying off such an event, I do not postulate that it is even possible, and I am not in any way attempting to revive the foolish 9/11 conspiracy controversy.

I put forth a purely hypothetical question; assuming that B/C/&nC had the ability, would they actually do it if it looked like McCain was hopeless in late August or September? In other words, how cynical are you with respect to the still-in-power Bush administration?

Simon
SFN Regular

USA
1992 Posts

Posted - 06/11/2008 :  15:50:08   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Simon a Private Message  Reply with Quote
If they could get away with it?

Sure.

I mean; didn't they threaten with another 9/11 with Kerry was elected?


But; I do not think they would take the risk. The political backlash if discovered making false rumours of an attack would be too dangerous.
Also, which is the agency that would organize the 'conspiracy'. The CIA? They do not particularly like the current administration and would probably not go along with it.

Look again at that dot. That's here. That's home. That's us. On it everyone you love, everyone you know, everyone you ever heard of, every human being who ever was, lived out their lives. The aggregate of our joy and suffering, thousands of confident religions, ideologies, and economic doctrines, every hunter and forager, every hero and coward, every creator and destroyer of civilization, every king and peasant, every young couple in love, every mother and father, hopeful child, inventor and explorer, every teacher of morals, every corrupt politician, every "superstar," every "supreme leader," every saint and sinner in the history of our species lived there – on a mote of dust suspended in a sunbeam.
Carl Sagan - 1996
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Coat Of Arms
Skeptic Friend

USA
58 Posts

Posted - 06/11/2008 :  16:15:23   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Coat Of Arms a Private Message  Reply with Quote
It strikes at the core of what our country's about. Our democracy depends on a healthy, efficient, and ethical government.Americans have a right to expect fair, open, and honest election. Hypothetical, no one has the power to coordinate a systematic exchange of information among principal participants in order to carry out a unified hoax of that magnitude.

Paul C.
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Kil
Evil Skeptic

USA
13467 Posts

Posted - 06/11/2008 :  16:43:01   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Kil's Homepage  Send Kil an AOL message  Send Kil a Yahoo! Message Send Kil a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by bngbuck

I would like to solicit opinion from any and all interested in the upcoming election. QUESTION:

Do you believe that Bush, Cheney, and the neoCon cabal; comprising what is still the Powers That Be in America, are cynical enough to fake a terrorist attack on America (not nearly the scope of 9/11, but big enough to be scary) in an attempt to assure the election of John McCain and the continuation of Republican Policies?


I realize the extreme difficulty of carrying off such an event, I do not postulate that it is even possible, and I am not in any way attempting to revive the foolish 9/11 conspiracy controversy.

I put forth a purely hypothetical question; assuming that B/C/&nC had the ability, would they actually do it if it looked like McCain was hopeless in late August or September? In other words, how cynical are you with respect to the still-in-power Bush administration?
That bunch of nincompoops? If they could, they would. They are already traitors.

But I doubt that they will try anything so stupid as that. No one trusts them anymore, and they know it. They also have a habit of getting caught, even though they seem to be able to avoid prosecution and impeachment. They would be suspect from the git-go. What worries me more is Bush ordering his military to bomb Iran. But I think even that one is a long shot...

Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.

Why not question something for a change?

Genetic Literacy Project
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Chippewa
SFN Regular

USA
1496 Posts

Posted - 06/11/2008 :  17:05:08   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Chippewa's Homepage Send Chippewa a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by bngbuck

I would like to solicit opinion from any and all interested in the upcoming election.
Do you believe that Bush, Cheney, and the neoCon cabal; comprising what is still the Powers That Be in America, are cynical enough to fake a terrorist attack on America (not nearly the scope of 9/11, but big enough to be scary) in an attempt to assure the election of John McCain and the continuation of Republican Policies?



By "fake a terrorist attack" I think you mean a conspiratorial real attack by operatives posing as terrorists. Would they do it? I don't think they would organize an attack in the "pulp fiction, dime novel, comic book" sense – that is, Cheney actually secretly meeting with pseudo-terrorists or even instructing through go-betweens to plot out and launch an attack. Too many witnesses and loose ends. I do however think they'd allow a terrorist attack to take place if they thought it would clinch the election or bring them political gain.

On the other hand, take the case of Valerie Plame. They can't even cover their tracks there. Even though there's yet to be ironclad direct evidence linking the administration with outing a CIA agent (and risking the lives of additional people,) all for the petty reason of discrediting Joe Wilson – who's report in turn undermined their reasons to attack Iraq, they got caught (but not arrested). And even though “Scooter” Libby was the fall-guy, most people feel Dick Cheney was involved or ordered it. That bit of treason is on a lesser scale compared to instigating another attack, so if they wanted violence and fear for political leverage, they'd likely cover their tracks by not even laying tracks.

I've pondered why many people aside from the woowoos feel that 9/11 itself was a conspiracy. I think that's because it was a conspiracy but on several levels that don't interest the woowoos.
1. Saudi radicals from Ben Laden's group planned and high-jacked airlines on suicide missions.
2. The administration was warned in advance of an attack using planes and did nothing.
3. The administration also had plans to invade Iraq before 9/11 and many people believe they would have done so even if 9/11 did not take place.

I don't think secret agents planted bombs in the twin towers or other nonsense, but this doesn't rule out the use of a forewarned attack as political leverage, and that in itself is a conspiracy.

I think the present administration would do less than their best efforts to prevent another attack here or overseas if warned so as to use it for political leverage, or they would try to lure Iran into a provocative move so as to facilitate a US-Iran war. This of course would be monumentally stupid.

On another note, if none of this happens and also if Barack Obama is elected, I think these NeoCons would still try to do everything they could to defame and undermine him and drive him from office somehow. I wouldn't put it past them to conspire in treason to instigate a situation leading to escalating violence and death in Iraq all for political leverage against Obama's policies. But he's smart and has smart people with him and might nip it all in the bud.

Diversity, independence, innovation and imagination are progressive concepts ultimately alien to the conservative mind.

"TAX AND SPEND" IS GOOD! (TAX: Wealthy corporations who won't go poor even after taxes. SPEND: On public works programs, education, the environment, improvements.)
Edited by - Chippewa on 06/11/2008 17:10:50
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filthy
SFN Die Hard

USA
14408 Posts

Posted - 06/11/2008 :  18:11:52   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send filthy a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Great minds think alike; I've been poking at that one with with a cerebral stick for several years.

The sad truth is that I really don't know, and it is a chilling comment that I'd even consider such treason on the part of our (gag) leaders. It is true that this administration, virtually en toto, has ethics somewhat beneath those of the late Alphonse Capone, but would they take the tremendous risk involved? I remind: if done and found out, they could quite possibly find themselves doing the Mussolini Swing from every lamp post on Pennsylvania Ave., and that they can't keep a secret worth beans.

I think that they might, but the real question is: does this pack of proven slackers have the courage?




"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)

"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres


"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude

Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,

and Crypto-Communist!

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bngbuck
SFN Addict

USA
2437 Posts

Posted - 06/12/2008 :  00:16:23   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send bngbuck a Private Message  Reply with Quote
So far as to: Would Bush/Cheney actually stage a "terrorist" attack in order to elect McCain?

Simon Yes, but might not take the risk
Coat of Arms Whole thing doubtful
Kil Yes, but might not take risk
Chippewa No, too much risk, but they would allow it
Filthy Maybe, high risk, do they have the balls?

Two yes, with qualification too risky
One maybe, with qualification too risky
One doubtful, B/C not that corrupt, too difficult
One no, qualification - would not [u]prevent[u/] attack

Any more opinions? (I'm going somewhere with this)
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moakley
SFN Regular

USA
1888 Posts

Posted - 06/12/2008 :  04:55:36   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send moakley a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Kil

What worries me more is Bush ordering his military to bomb Iran. But I think even that one is a long shot...
It's remarkable, but as soon as I read the op I thought no on the terrorist plot, but there is a possibility that Bush would order the bombing facilities in Iran suspected of enriching uranium. Hopelessly deluded to the end.

Life is good

Philosophy is questions that may never be answered. Religion is answers that may never be questioned. -Anonymous
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pleco
SFN Addict

USA
2996 Posts

Posted - 06/12/2008 :  07:43:46   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit pleco's Homepage Send pleco a Private Message  Reply with Quote
No - the risk is too great. Too many people would be involved - which is one of the reasons why the 9/11 conspiracy theories are bunk-ola.

Now, attacking Iran....I'm just waiting for the Breaking News...

by Filthy
The neo-con methane machine will soon be running at full fart.
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Simon
SFN Regular

USA
1992 Posts

Posted - 06/12/2008 :  09:14:55   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Simon a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by pleco

No - the risk is too great. Too many people would be involved - which is one of the reasons why the 9/11 conspiracy theories are bunk-ola.

Now, attacking Iran....I'm just waiting for the Breaking News...



Not sure it would be such a smart move.
The administration is already receiving flak for the war in Iraq and people already feel like the military is being over-stretched.

I think it would cost them rather than benefit them.


A few years ago; the French government freed some hostage from Lebanon. As a matter of pure coincidence (yeah; right) it happened right between two turns of an election.

I can imagine the Bushists doing a similar thing. Maybe revealing the week before the election that they finally got their hand on Ossama.


Similarly but more evil was the Spanish government reaction to the Madrid bombings. Rather than reveal that it was Al Quaida and risk the Spanish people blaming the government for entering the war in Iraq against the public opinion... They lied and said the clues pointed toward the Basque separatists (the political wing of which was a member of the opposition).

But it did not work so well and nobody really bought it and, within a couple of days, the lie was exposed and the 'cunning' plan had backfired.
The government lost the election and Spain withdraw from Iraq.


Conspiracies always seem good on paper; but in reality, they are difficult to pull out.

Look again at that dot. That's here. That's home. That's us. On it everyone you love, everyone you know, everyone you ever heard of, every human being who ever was, lived out their lives. The aggregate of our joy and suffering, thousands of confident religions, ideologies, and economic doctrines, every hunter and forager, every hero and coward, every creator and destroyer of civilization, every king and peasant, every young couple in love, every mother and father, hopeful child, inventor and explorer, every teacher of morals, every corrupt politician, every "superstar," every "supreme leader," every saint and sinner in the history of our species lived there – on a mote of dust suspended in a sunbeam.
Carl Sagan - 1996
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BigPapaSmurf
SFN Die Hard

3192 Posts

Posted - 06/12/2008 :  09:56:24   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send BigPapaSmurf a Private Message  Reply with Quote
No, but they may ignore certain red flags which might suggest an attack was imminent, such as people learning to fly and not wanting to learn how to land...That said, I dont think anyone in the US gov had anything to do with 9/11, it is possible though.

"...things I have neither seen nor experienced nor heard tell of from anybody else; things, what is more, that do not in fact exist and could not ever exist at all. So my readers must not believe a word I say." -Lucian on his book True History

"...They accept such things on faith alone, without any evidence. So if a fraudulent and cunning person who knows how to take advantage of a situation comes among them, he can make himself rich in a short time." -Lucian critical of early Christians c.166 AD From his book, De Morte Peregrini
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Simon
SFN Regular

USA
1992 Posts

Posted - 06/12/2008 :  10:06:31   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Simon a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Well... by the time the information about this would climb up the ladder of command for the Political body to make a decision... dozens of persons would have received a copy of the memo.

For somebody to ask to can the investigation would probably be suspicious indeed at that point.


what I can imagine is the National security telling Bush:
-'We have information about a terrorist cell preparing an action sometime in the next few months and we are ready to move on.'.
-'Are they an immediate danger?'
-'No; our informations tell us they won't do anything until several more months'
-'Then wait till the week before the election to dismantle it. We will need the positive press to arrive at that time.'

Look again at that dot. That's here. That's home. That's us. On it everyone you love, everyone you know, everyone you ever heard of, every human being who ever was, lived out their lives. The aggregate of our joy and suffering, thousands of confident religions, ideologies, and economic doctrines, every hunter and forager, every hero and coward, every creator and destroyer of civilization, every king and peasant, every young couple in love, every mother and father, hopeful child, inventor and explorer, every teacher of morals, every corrupt politician, every "superstar," every "supreme leader," every saint and sinner in the history of our species lived there – on a mote of dust suspended in a sunbeam.
Carl Sagan - 1996
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Ricky
SFN Die Hard

USA
4907 Posts

Posted - 06/12/2008 :  11:53:24   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Send Ricky an AOL message Send Ricky a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Would they exaggerate the possibility of attacks to fear Americans? Sure.
Would they completely make up the threat of a fake attack? Unlikely, but within the realm of plausibility.
Would they coordinate an actual attack where no one was injured? No.
Would they coordinate an actual attack where people were injured? Absolutely not.

This administration has done plenty of things to hurt Americans, but never in such a blunt fashion. I believe anything beyond stressing the war on terror and the danger of terrorist attacks is not something they would take part of.

Why continue? Because we must. Because we have the call. Because it is nobler to fight for rationality without winning than to give up in the face of continued defeats. Because whatever true progress humanity makes is through the rationality of the occasional individual and because any one individual we may win for the cause may do more for humanity than a hundred thousand who hug their superstitions to their breast.
- Isaac Asimov
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bngbuck
SFN Addict

USA
2437 Posts

Posted - 06/12/2008 :  17:33:30   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send bngbuck a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Okay, from some of the comments I'm getting, I understand that there is some misunderstanding as to my meaning. I shall try to restate the OP:


Do you think that the Bush Administration would be morally and ethically capable of actually staging and executing a major "terrorist" attack on an American city; attributed to Al Quaida, one in which hundreds or thousands of innocents were killed, in order to frighten Americans into voting for John McCain?


Genuine high treason to achieve political dominance for ultra-conservatism!


Whether this would be something executed by the CIA, or the military, or mercenaries, or hired Arab terrorists is not relevant yet! I want to get there, if it appears that many feel such a thing is even a possibility (if it could be done cleverly enough!)

I am not concerned here with the practicality or logistics of such an attack, only with an opinion on whether Bush/Cheney/Rove would do it - if they could get away with it - (not be traced back to the planning of the attack). At this point, I want opinion on the degree of depravity of the Bush Administration! Are Bush/Cheney/Rove genuine monsters capable of premeditated mass murder?

YES or NO or MAYBE ??

We'll proceed from there, if I can get some more opinion!

Edited by - bngbuck on 06/12/2008 17:57:47
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Kil
Evil Skeptic

USA
13467 Posts

Posted - 06/12/2008 :  19:28:24   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Kil's Homepage  Send Kil an AOL message  Send Kil a Yahoo! Message Send Kil a Private Message  Reply with Quote
If I vote again, will my opinion be counted twice?

Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.

Why not question something for a change?

Genetic Literacy Project
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moakley
SFN Regular

USA
1888 Posts

Posted - 06/12/2008 :  19:52:15   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send moakley a Private Message  Reply with Quote
No

Life is good

Philosophy is questions that may never be answered. Religion is answers that may never be questioned. -Anonymous
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