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pleco
SFN Addict
USA
2998 Posts |
 Posted - 08/01/2008 : 07:08:51 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dude
1. An EMP weapon is a very very sophisticated device. Iran doesn't even have a basic nuke. So the whole concept is a dumbfuck idea from the getgo. As if Iran is going to attack the US anyway... retards.
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Like the US Department of War had not already considered this back during the Cold War days and has plans for it. If Iran pulled off something like this (and that is a ginormous IF), then I believe that you could kiss that part of the world goodbye. |
by Filthy
The neo-con methane machine will soon be running at full fart. |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 08/01/2008 : 07:12:07 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dave W.
4jesus was clearly trying to get over the minimum posting limit for using our member-to-member email to spam, but seems to have gotten tired of trying.
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Sooo, the Ivory Coast catch was a good one, then? It rang the Uh-Oh chime on my bullshit detector as soon as I saw it. But I did want to give him/her the benefit of whatever doubt there might be....
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist! 
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bngbuck
SFN Addict
USA
2437 Posts |
Posted - 08/01/2008 : 09:39:24 [Permalink]
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I am SO fucking glad that my thread was selected by this freaking fruitcake upon which to dump his garbage truck of rancid religious spam!!
Thanks Pleco, Simon, and Dude for shoehorning in a few words of sensible response before Before Jeezus decided to start peeing his proselyting piss all over the SFN landscape!
4 Jesus.....
Please get your Bible, drop your pants, back up to a large mirror, and bend over and look between your legs. See that little dark hole there in the middle of your butt? Now kindly stuff that fucking Bible you have in your hand into that hole.
Stuff hard!
Doesn't fit? Keep working at it, you're becoming a bigger asshole by the minute!
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Simon
SFN Regular
USA
1992 Posts |
Posted - 08/01/2008 : 16:04:43 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by pleco
Originally posted by Dude
1. An EMP weapon is a very very sophisticated device. Iran doesn't even have a basic nuke. So the whole concept is a dumbfuck idea from the getgo. As if Iran is going to attack the US anyway... retards.
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Like the US Department of War had not already considered this back during the Cold War days and has plans for it. If Iran pulled off something like this (and that is a ginormous IF), then I believe that you could kiss that part of the world goodbye.
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Ok... I was under the impression that it was mostly a matter of setting off a big enough nuke at high altitude and let physic do the rest of the work.
And was not our beloved world wide web born from a response to such a situation? A small military network protected from such effects to maintain some level of communications in the event of a nuclear a holocaust? |
Look again at that dot. That's here. That's home. That's us. On it everyone you love, everyone you know, everyone you ever heard of, every human being who ever was, lived out their lives. The aggregate of our joy and suffering, thousands of confident religions, ideologies, and economic doctrines, every hunter and forager, every hero and coward, every creator and destroyer of civilization, every king and peasant, every young couple in love, every mother and father, hopeful child, inventor and explorer, every teacher of morals, every corrupt politician, every "superstar," every "supreme leader," every saint and sinner in the history of our species lived there – on a mote of dust suspended in a sunbeam.
Carl Sagan - 1996 |
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bngbuck
SFN Addict
USA
2437 Posts |
Posted - 08/01/2008 : 17:50:27 [Permalink]
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Dude.....
| 1. An EMP weapon is a very very sophisticated device. |
I'm sorry, Dude, but I don't completely understand what you mean by "very very"
As I said in the opening post, this is not an area in which I pretend any expertise at all! But I don't understand what is so very very sophisticated about a fission bomb.
Some folks on this forum argued not too long ago that fission bombs were not all that difficult or complicated to achieve, other than obtaining the fissionable material. Surely a nation like Iran with substantial oil revenues and a totalitarian government could find a way to acquire a few elementary fission bombs. Wiki states that: Several major factors control the effectiveness of an EMP weapon. These are:
The altitude of the weapon when detonated;
The yield of the weapon;
The distance from the weapon when detonated;
Geographical depth or intervening geographical features. |
None of this appears to me to be very, very sophisticated.
I'm sure I am missing something here, but I don't know what it is!
If India, and Pakistan, and North Korea can pile up a few fission nukes, why not Iran?
They already have Russian Scuds, I'm sure that the right negotiations could get them a missile or two that would have sufficient range or altitude capability to reach the EMP-effective zone.
What's wrong with Simon's statement.....?Ok... I was under the impression that it was mostly a matter of setting off a big enough nuke at high altitude and let physic do the rest of the work.
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....Where does the extreme degree of sophistication come in?
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 08/01/2008 : 18:55:40 [Permalink]
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Really bng?
A crude nuclear bomb is one thing. Iran could likely cobble a couple together without much problem.
But a nuke big enough to effect any significant area with an EMP, the guidance system, and the method of delivery all make for a degree of sophistication you aren't going to find outside of a major national lab or military research complex.
There is no evidence Iran has managed to assemble even a crude nuclear device as yet. I'm sure they will manage it before long though.
But FUCK man.... they don't even need nukes.
Just strap a couple dozen of these on a SCUD. Aim at NYC from your cargo ship.... talk about fucking us over without really taking more than a handful of lives (where the burnt out missile shells happen to land).
Lucky for us all the terrorists seem to be simple morons who do simple shit like fly planes at buildings, plant IEDs, and run into checkpoints, malls, and the GreenZone(tm) with dynamite strapped to their ass.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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bngbuck
SFN Addict
USA
2437 Posts |
Posted - 08/02/2008 : 02:01:31 [Permalink]
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Dude.....
That is really interesting shit! But something is terribly wrong - practically everything mentioned in the wiki article is dated somewhere in the fifties. That's almost sixty fucking years ago! Where in the jumpin' jackoff jeezuz christ do you think this research is today?| Lucky for us all the terrorists seem to be simple morons who do simple shit like fly planes at buildings, plant IEDs, and run into checkpoints, malls, and the GreenZone(tm) with dynamite strapped to their ass. |
Yeah, well, I think that if everything was as ABC as that wiki article seems to imply, some North Korean, Arab, Hezbollah or even Russian sponsored terrorist maniacs would have EMPeed either the USA ot Israel ten times over by now!
Everybody in the goddam world seems to agree that if Bin Laden's boys get a nuke or two inside America, we're sure as hell going to have some pretty damn big radioactive holes in the ground where some of our favorite cities used to be. And this EMP technology looks like something vastly simpler than building, buying, or stealing a fission bomb and smuggling it into the US!
So why the hell hasn't the big E-bomb photon shower already fucked up the infrastructures of some good-guy country like us or the Brits or Israel by now?
There's a piece of this puzzle missing!
I really don't think the Ay Rabs are all as stupid as the average American Republican voter! That 9/11 caper was not the work of morons!| A nuke big enough to effect any significant area with an EMP, the guidance system, and the method of delivery all make for a degree of sophistication you aren't going to find outside of a major national lab or military research complex. |
| An explosion big enough to topple the two tallest skyscrapers in New York City, the guidance system, and the method of delivery all make for a degree of sophistication you aren't going to find outside of a major industrial nation or a modern military power! |
Yeah, sure! |
| Edited by - bngbuck on 08/02/2008 02:11:02 |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 08/02/2008 : 07:00:37 [Permalink]
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bng said:
There's a piece of this puzzle missing!
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Yeah, there sure is. Its the people who we are constantly told want to destroy our way of life. Here's a hint: They don't really exist in the quantity our government says they do.
| Where in the jumpin' jackoff jeezuz christ do you think this research is today? |
Small enough to fit into a JDAM and be deployed with precision effect against selected targets. Rumor has it we used a couple to kick off the Iraq invasion in 2003.
| An explosion big enough to topple the two tallest skyscrapers in New York City, the guidance system, and the method of delivery all make for a degree of sophistication you aren't going to find outside of a major industrial nation or a modern military power! |
Uh huh.
The 9/11 plot was clever, well planned, and well executed.
It did not require any level of independent technological sophistication.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
Posted - 08/02/2008 : 08:53:04 [Permalink]
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Heck, they haven't even solved the problem of launching a SCUD from a floating platform. AAA missiles or AS missiles are one thing, this is several degrees of difficulty harder. Assuming these fuckwits can find a crew willing to become flambe from the launch, you sill have to sail this thing close enough without getting a military flyover and be able to raise the SCUD (can't sail with that fucker visible, people will notice and your ship becomes the "unfortunate loss at sea" (ask Boron about the effects of Torpex suppository on a surface vessel) that isn't readily explained) in a short period of time before the planes send her to the bottom. |
Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils
Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion |
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bngbuck
SFN Addict
USA
2437 Posts |
Posted - 08/02/2008 : 09:40:28 [Permalink]
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Dude.....
| It did not require any level of independent technological sophistication. |
Well, does loading a purchased rocket equipped with a purchased, stolen, or hijacked warhead onto a freighter; floating it a few thousand miles across the Atlantic, setting it up on the deck, aiming it at the sky over the US and pushing the button entail any significant level of "independent technological sophistication? Doesn't sound like NASA to me!
Especially if you have quite a bit of help from technologically sophisticated folks that are hired from countries that are well versed in the technological skills necessary to design, build, arm, aim, and detonate such devices?
I do not think that technical sophistication can be prevented from migrating to any country that wants it and can pay a pretty good price for it. There are many examples of this. Russian spies start stealing technological information from Los Alamos before we even test an A-bomb, and the cold war is born.
Backward countries at the time (50's, 60's) like China, India, Pakistan all manage to join the nuclear club with begged, borrowed, bought or stolen nuclear knowledge. Comes the turn of the century and North Korea, a backward third-world country if there ever was one, manages to put together a nuclear program that actually produces a bomb or two. Etcetera.
If Iran, or Saudi Arabia, or Syria, Jordan, the terrorists of Palestine or even Al Qaeda really wants to acquire nuclear or EMP weapons, they will sooner or later have them. My guess is sooner!| Yeah, there sure is. Its the people who we are constantly told want to destroy our way of life. Here's a hint: They don't really exist in the quantity our government says they do. |
They really don't exist in quantity? You don't think there are entire nations whose leaders and governments and powerful fanatical religious zealots want to destroy certain other nations way of life; certainly destroy the political and economic systems of such hated countries? You don't think Israel is a target for annihilation by numerous Arab states?
You don't think the Bush neocons don't want to destroy the governments and "way of life" of places like Iraq (mission nearly accomplished), Iran, Syria, North Korea, whatever "Axis of Evil" nations Bush and the neocons have defined? And if there was even a prayer of it, the governments and "way of life" of the nations of Russia and China?
And you don't believe that there are nations whose governments harbor the same hatreds, and the burning desire to exterminate, against the mighty US? Who will certainly fund and support any organized group of any size that has the will and the way to attack the US - like ,maybe, Al Quaida?
Sheesh! |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 08/02/2008 : 10:36:09 [Permalink]
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Nope.
Such absolutes are an infantile way of looking at others, good for little more than justifying your own prejudice.
Even here in the US the ones who want to disrupt other nations are an extreme minority. They just happen to be running the government at the moment. Their motivations are a good deal more complex than "spreading democracy" too. Power, oil, money, etc.
Most people simply want to be left alone.
Are there countries who would fund terror attacks against the US? Sure, sure. But their motivations are much more complex than "kill those dirty Americans!" They are playing for status, money, and influence. The shining example of Pakistan motivates them. Become a nuclear power and DAMN! The US is suddenly your bestest buddy!
But I know you are well aware of the comnplexities involved. I think you are just finally comming down off those post-op pain meds and yer jonzin fer a good argument.
SO yes, the number of people who genuinely want to see the US and/or Israel destroyed is vastly exaggerated.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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bngbuck
SFN Addict
USA
2437 Posts |
Posted - 08/04/2008 : 13:40:33 [Permalink]
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Dude.....
| You don't think there are entire nations whose leaders and governments and powerful fanatical religious zealots want to destroy certain other nations way of life; certainly destroy the political and economic systems of such hated countries? You don't think Israel is a target for annihilation by numerous Arab states? |
| You don't think the Bush neocons don't want to destroy the governments and "way of life" of places like Iraq (mission nearly accomplished), Iran, Syria, North Korea, whatever "Axis of Evil" nations Bush and the neocons have defined? |
| And you don't believe that there are nations whose governments harbor the same hatreds, and the burning desire to exterminate, against the mighty US? |
Dude:
Nope. SO yes, the number of people who genuinely want to see the US and/or Israel destroyed is vastly exaggerated. |
So what you are saying is the "number of people" that constitute the real leaders of the countries I mentioned is vastly exaggerated? Or is it that only a few of the teeming populations of such countries hate our guts?
Like..."we are being told" that there are many, many people in the governments of Iran and Syria and the leadership group of the Palestinians that want to damage or destroy the U.S.; and in reality, there are just a few such government officials?
I really don't know what difference it makes whether there are large numbers of Arab state government officials that are hell bent on destroying us, or only a few at the top; the expressed intent and the actual actions of those governments is what counts. Most of the Arab countries with these sentiments are damn close to being totalitarian states, and I pretty much think that the intent of the dictatorial top leaders, secular or religious, is what drives their actions. It really doesn't matter at all what the subjects of these dictators want or don't want!
But Dude, I think that it is either extremely naive or pretty blind to blithly assume that there are just a few Arab nutcases that despise and want to damage the U.S. (and particularly Israel); and that these radical Islamists are largely impotent in their ability to cause harm. I truly wish that that was the case, but the historical antecedents that I mentioned in my previous post are enough evidence for me that an isolationist, ignore-them-and-they-will-go-away, policy is a pretty damn dangerous one!
Even if there were only fifty such fanatics in the entire world, if many of them controlled the resources of an entire nation, it would not matter much what the populations of those nations wanted or did not want.
So whether you are talking about individual leaders, leader groups, or even the rank-and-file masses of these countries, the numbers don't really matter, the power does! We supposedly have a democracy here in the U.S.A., the people don't want war; yet Dick and his thugs have managed to hijack our government and start a damned unfortunate war!| Such absolutes are an infantile way of looking at others, good for little more than justifying your own prejudice. |
Well, I certainly wouldn't want to be thought of as infantile and prejudiced, these terms could even be interpreted as perjorative. So why don't you detail for me the ample factual evidence that you must have for your don't-worry-about-it opinion?| Even here in the US the ones who want to disrupt other nations are an extreme minority. They just happen to be running the government at the moment. |
That's kind of the point, isn't it? Give a single psychopath like Hitler, or Osama, or Kim Jong-il, or George Bush/Dick Cheney a whole lot of control and a whole lot of destructive power, and the chances of them using it are uncomfortably high. Many such maniacs already have been responsible for many wars and untold death and destruction. To say, in effect, "ah, there's only a few nuts like that and they can't really do any harm" is foolhardy, to say the least.| Most people simply want to be left alone. |
I could not agree more with this observation. Unfortunately, the few that all too frequently arrogate the reins of power, most emphatically do not want to be left alone; they want to arrogate more power and they involve their entire nations in their personal aggrandizement!| Are there countries who would fund terror attacks against the US? Sure, sure. But their motivations are much more complex than "kill those dirty Americans!" |
What difference does their motivation make if the end result of the funding of terrorists is successful terrorist attacks which kill those dirty Americans? Like the Saudis bankroll Bin Laden and soon the twin towers go down!| They are playing for status, money, and influence |
Probably true, but one of the unfortunate results is that we Americans get hurt and killed as a result of these power plays. So we must be highly concerned about it, not hide our ostrich heads in the Arab desert sands!| But I know you are well aware of the comnplexities involved. |
I am well aware not only of the complexities, but also of the dangers involved!| I think you are just finally comming down off those post-op pain meds and yer jonzin fer a good argument. |
It was just a procedure, I don't really believe in pain pills, yes, I do rather enjoy a spirited discussion, or a fucking free-for-all, for that matter! I know a few wordsmiths, no Jones, tho!
Glad to see you on the way back to your signature ad hominem style, for a while there I thought you might be decending into wussitude! Probably was just my infantile prejudice taking over! |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 08/04/2008 : 14:48:37 [Permalink]
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Talk about shifting the goalposts....
Stop embarrassing yourself bng.
Let the last of those pain meds clear out of your system.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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bngbuck
SFN Addict
USA
2437 Posts |
Posted - 08/05/2008 : 00:25:33 [Permalink]
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Dude.....
Kind of sorry to see you in retreat, but we all give up at some place or another. Keep up this kind of evasion and I really am gonna' need a pain pill!
Rest up, and I'll try you again sometime. |
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chaloobi
SFN Regular
1620 Posts |
Posted - 08/08/2008 : 07:07:19 [Permalink]
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Just in case this hasn't already been said, the US military almost certainly uses hardened electronics for it's strategic nuclear assets. While my Wii might not work anymore, the US nuclear arsenal would be ready-set-go for Iran. Despite all government/right wing propaganda to the contrary, I seriously doubt the Iranian leadership desires the annihilation of their nation.
Some thoughts - what does an Iranian nuclear weapon really mean? No, I don't believe they'll nuke the jews or the EU or whatever else the first chance they get. That's a suicide scenario and while a variety of militant Islamic fundie groups do use such tactics you don't see the leadership strapping on bomb vests. They get flunkies to do that while they hide from reprisals. But Iran won't be able to hide, so what will Iran do with such weapons? Worst case, IMHO, is tell the West to fuck off and fund Hezbollah style movements to push their interests in the region without the fear of getting bombed by the US or it's Isreali surrogate. And last time I checked, they've been very successful at this lately without a nuke, so wtf?
The fundamental truth about a nuclear weapon is that to use it today against virtually any enemey is suicide. Who could Iran nuke without being destroyed in response? Who could N. Korea nuke, for that matter? Who could Pakistan nuke? All it's good for is a threat of horrible reprisal if someone else attacks you. So if the US 'allows' Iran to get a nuke, we allow them to tell us to stuff it when we rattle our sabre. I'm frankly not all that worried about it. |
-Chaloobi
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What's wrong with this nightmare scenario?
