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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
 Posted - 08/11/2008 : 08:54:48 [Permalink]
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Robb said:
| I think the problem is that you do not think you have done anything wrong stemming from the fact that you do not know that God exists. |
You are funny Robb!
That actually made me laugh out loud.
Your argument is still circular. You have to already know god exists (a fatal flaw in any plan from an omnipotent being, wouldn't you say? Surely such a being is capable of making its presence unquestionably known without influencing your free will, being omnipotent and all....) before you can know your god exists!
I kinda feel sorry for you. Really.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13476 Posts |
Posted - 08/11/2008 : 09:11:45 [Permalink]
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Robb:
I think the problem is that you do not think you have done anything wrong stemming from the fact that you do not know that God exists. |
As Dude said, that is a circular argument. I must have a Christian concept of sin and accept the existence of God before God will revel himself to me? Even though, in my doubt, I ask him to? Has any atheist or agnostic ever been saved? How is it possible, based on the criteria you have laid out, for a non believer to be saved? Keep in mind that if God had reveled himself to me when I sincerely asked, I would surely have, you know, seen the light and the error of my ways. But Jesus was a no show...
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Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 08/11/2008 : 09:26:29 [Permalink]
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Kil, here, this "A" is for you.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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Robb
SFN Regular
USA
1223 Posts |
Posted - 08/11/2008 : 09:56:36 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dude
That actually made me laugh out loud. |
I am glad I made you laugh.
| Your argument is still circular. You have to already know god exists (a fatal flaw in any plan from an omnipotent being, wouldn't you say? Surely such a being is capable of making its presence unquestionably known without influencing your free will, being omnipotent and all....) before you can know your god exists! |
I agree, you do need to believe God exists to repent.
| I kinda feel sorry for you. Really. |
Thanks!
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Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master. - George Washington |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13476 Posts |
Posted - 08/11/2008 : 10:42:48 [Permalink]
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Robb:
I agree, you do need to believe God exists to repent. |
And if you are a critical thinker, God will not lift a pinky to keep you out of hell, no matter what kind of life you have lead.
I wonder if there are shrinks in heaven, cause God surly has one epic personalty disorder... |
Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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Robb
SFN Regular
USA
1223 Posts |
Posted - 08/11/2008 : 11:13:18 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Kil
Robb:
I think the problem is that you do not think you have done anything wrong stemming from the fact that you do not know that God exists. |
As Dude said, that is a circular argument. I must have a Christian concept of sin and accept the existence of God before God will revel himself to me? Even though, in my doubt, I ask him to? Has any atheist or agnostic ever been saved? How is it possible, based on the criteria you have laid out, for a non believer to be saved? Keep in mind that if God had reveled himself to me when I sincerely asked, I would surely have, you know, seen the light and the error of my ways. But Jesus was a no show...
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You seem to have a concept that if anyone askes God is obliged to save them. The Bible says that repentence always precedes conversion. Does it make sense that God should save someone if they have raped, murdered etc their whole life and just simply ask without any sign that they are sorry for what they have done? Repentence is essential, Jesus said without it no one is saved.
By the way, how would you know if you are saved. What do you think will happen at your conversion? |
Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master. - George Washington |
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Robb
SFN Regular
USA
1223 Posts |
Posted - 08/11/2008 : 11:16:10 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Kil
Robb:
I agree, you do need to believe God exists to repent. |
And if you are a critical thinker, God will not lift a pinky to keep you out of hell, no matter what kind of life you have lead.
I wonder if there are shrinks in heaven, cause God surly has one epic personalty disorder...
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Only if you consider an infinite being, one part of the trinity, innocent of any sin being beaten and then left to die on a cross with other criminals not lifting a pinky. |
Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master. - George Washington |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13476 Posts |
Posted - 08/11/2008 : 11:17:41 [Permalink]
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Robb:
You seem to have a concept that if anyone askes God is obliged to save them. The Bible says that repentence always precedes conversion. Does it make sense that God should save someone if they have raped, murdered etc their whole life and just simply ask without any sign that they are sorry for what they have done? Repentence is essential, Jesus said without it no one is saved. |
As I said, all God had to do was reveal himself to me. The rest would be on me. But he was a no show...
Your argument makes no sense. But then, why would I expect it to?
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Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13476 Posts |
Posted - 08/11/2008 : 11:30:39 [Permalink]
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Robb:
Only if you consider an infinite being, one part of the trinity, innocent of any sin being beaten and then left to die on a cross with other criminals not lifting a pinky. |
Yes. If he ignores the prayers of those who doubt him, all he has become is a ticket into heaven for those who already believe in him. He is either lazy or in need of therapy, as I have said...
This version of God, and the fact that there are so many believers in this sadistic and incompassionate prick makes me ill.
Let me add that since Jesus knew of the outcome, his resurrection, his act was far less noble than the atheist who covers a hand grenade with his body to save his comrades. Because that guy isn't expecting to be resurrected.
And hey, I'm not even one of those angry atheists...
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Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
 Posted - 08/11/2008 : 12:08:51 [Permalink]
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Ken ham has some thoughts on the matter: How Many Doors?
by Ken Ham, President, AiG-U.S. and the Creation MuseumAugust 11,
Some things surprise me, some don't.
During an interview earlier this summer with a secular reporter, I was not all that surprised when I was asked, “Do you believe Moslems are going to hell?”
The answer I gave went something like this: “My authority is the Bible—God's Word. God tells me in His Word that ‘unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God' (John 3:3). We're also told in Romans 10:9 ‘that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.'”
I concluded: “So, whether you're a Baptist, Catholic, Presbyterian, Moslem, or Hindu—if you're not born again as the Bible states, and have not received the free gift of salvation in Christ, the Bible clearly teaches you will not spend eternity in heaven with our Creator and Savior. You will be in hell separated from God—forever.”
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All twaddle that we've heard before ad nauseum, but the statistic we find a little farther along is interesting:
You will probably be shocked to learn, though, that 57% of people in America who attend what they call an “evangelical church” now believe there is more than one way—or door—to heaven! Several weeks ago, the Pew Forum, a non-partisan, non-advocacy organization, released the results of a survey that should cause preachers across this land to do an “emergency series” on basic Christianity. In part 2 of the Pew research results we read:
“The survey finds that most Americans [including Christians!] have a non-dogmatic approach to their faith; for example, most do not believe their religion is the only way to salvation. The survey also finds that religion is closely linked to political ideology.” |
Sorry Kenny, me old Hammy, but I am not in the least shocked. Religion has been gradually losing it's grip for centuries, the Catholic church being a prime example. Indeed, the only thing here that gives me pause at all is that it's taking such tediously a long time. And pretty much the same holds true for the protestant denominations. I rather suspect that Islam & the rest will suffer the same as education standards rise in third-world countries. This is not to say that everyone will become atheist, no. But folks will begin to reject, or at least ignore the more asinine aspects of their dogma.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist! 
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26020 Posts |
Posted - 08/11/2008 : 12:18:24 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Robb
Would it make sense that anybody could make up their own way to be saved and God should honor that? |
A good argument could be made that Luther (for one example among many) did just that.| Look in the Bible and tell me why what I said was wrong. |
Every schism has occured because someone has said that someone else is reading the Bible wrong.
You also wrote:| Look at the ten commandments and realize you have violated all of them. |
I certainly haven't murdered or adulterated. Besides, did Jesus fulfill the old law or not, Robb? |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Robb
SFN Regular
USA
1223 Posts |
Posted - 08/11/2008 : 12:54:56 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dave W.
Every schism has occured because someone has said that someone else is reading the Bible wrong. |
How can this be misinterpreted: "But unless you repent, you too will all perish." Lk 13:3
You also wrote:| Look at the ten commandments and realize you have violated all of them. |
I certainly haven't murdered or adulterated. Besides, did Jesus fulfill the old law or not, Robb?
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Jesus says you have:
But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart. Mt :28
Do not murder, and anyone who murders will be subject to judgment.' But I tell you that anyone who is angry with his brother will be subject to judgment. Mt 5:21-22 |
Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master. - George Washington |
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Robb
SFN Regular
USA
1223 Posts |
Posted - 08/11/2008 : 12:56:45 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Kil
Robb:
You seem to have a concept that if anyone askes God is obliged to save them. The Bible says that repentence always precedes conversion. Does it make sense that God should save someone if they have raped, murdered etc their whole life and just simply ask without any sign that they are sorry for what they have done? Repentence is essential, Jesus said without it no one is saved. |
As I said, all God had to do was reveal himself to me. The rest would be on me. But he was a no show...
Your argument makes no sense. But then, why would I expect it to?
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You have created your own God based on how you think God should act. My version of God is based on how the bible describes him. |
Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master. - George Washington |
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Ricky
SFN Die Hard
USA
4907 Posts |
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bngbuck
SFN Addict
USA
2437 Posts |
Posted - 08/11/2008 : 13:24:54 [Permalink]
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Robb.....
I sense that you are reluctant to even respond to logical questioning of your theistic beliefs, such as those offered by Dude and Kil I am glad I made you laugh..... I agree, you do need to believe God exists to repent......
Thanks!..... |
Turning the other (facial) cheek is certainly Christian behavior, but it often denotes a lack of courage in one's convictions. And, both from your previous comments on SFN and your responses in this thread, I feel that you are uncertain of your convictions and a little shaky in your professed faith.
Because you really are not such a stupid fellow, and the unquenchable little ember of rationality that burns in your intellect constantly nags at you. You ask: | What was the reason you wanted to be saved? The reason should be that you have realized that you have broken Gods holy law and are going to be eternally punished and rightly so. |
So you mean that the primary, most important, and possibly only reason for a person to become a Christian is a narcissic concern about ones own well-being after dying? If so, a Christian is thus defined as a paragon of egomaniacal self-concern, the most important thing in their life, AND THE ONLY REASON FOR BEING A CHRISTIAN, being an obsession with eternal self-preservation!
It follows that an atheist who sacrifices his life to save others, goes straight to hell! Or atheists; or merely non-Christians who live exemplary lives of care, giving, and doing good deeds for their fellow man; will rot in hell for eternity despite living a life of care, concern and self-sacrificial help and support to humanity.
And God condemns those untold millions of "his chosen people" the religious Jews; condemns them to Hell because they do not accept Christ? Or Muslims or any other monotheists with virtually identical views to those of the Christian of one omnicient, omnipotent God, and worship Him fanatically, but who do not "accept" Jesus as their "Saviour"?
What an utterly preposterous view this is of a supposedly "loving" God! Is your faith deep and strong enough to adequately answer the skepticism about Chtistianity that these kinds of questions raise, Robb?
Or do doubts creep in? Doubts planted by Beelzebub or his alter-egos Mephistopheles, Lucifer, Abbadon, Satan, Belial, or any of hundreds of other imaginative apellations for a horned flying pink tooth fairy spaghetti monster obsessed with corrupting mankind and wanting to take you straight to hell and munch on your bones!
Ask any Kosher Pastafarian! They'll tell you about the dangers of flying knaydlach
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Debating religious types, good and bad arguments
