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 Regarding Georgia and Russia's "Peace Keepers"
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chaloobi
SFN Regular

1620 Posts

Posted - 08/11/2008 :  12:22:49  Show Profile  Send chaloobi a Yahoo! Message Send chaloobi a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Any thoughts on the new war? I get the sense that Russia was just itching to smack down the Georgians; which, if true makes me wonder what the hell the Georgians were thinking when they went into S. Ossetia. They gave Putin the perfect pretext he needed to invade and stomp their country; heck, it was so good it might not even qualify as a pretext. Stupid.

So, will Russia occupy the whole country? I'd bet a dollar they take the whole thing and install a new government.

-Chaloobi


Edited by - chaloobi on 08/11/2008 12:24:04

pleco
SFN Addict

USA
2996 Posts

Posted - 08/11/2008 :  12:28:01   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit pleco's Homepage Send pleco a Private Message  Reply with Quote
They could use a similar "logic" like the US did in it's occupation of Iraq, no?

by Filthy
The neo-con methane machine will soon be running at full fart.
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filthy
SFN Die Hard

USA
14408 Posts

Posted - 08/11/2008 :  12:44:41   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send filthy a Private Message  Reply with Quote
No bet!

Russia has been looking for a pretext to "to smack down the Georgians" ever since the breakup of the USSR, and Putin is just the scumbag to do it.

I too, wonder what the Georgians were thinking.

And all the while, the other scumbag, the stupid one, Putin's soulmate, lallygags around with foxy vollyball players at the Olympics when he should be in his office trying to do something about it -- probably not much he can do though, being an international laughingstock & all.



I begin to despair of of ever again having a competent government.




"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)

"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres


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chaloobi
SFN Regular

1620 Posts

Posted - 08/11/2008 :  13:10:42   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Send chaloobi a Yahoo! Message Send chaloobi a Private Message  Reply with Quote
There's nothing the US government can do that would not end very badly. This is Russia's back yard and they're going to do what they want. I'm sure they consider it a grave matter of national security. The Georgians must have thought Putin was bluffing - pretty serious miscalculation that.

-Chaloobi

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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend

Sweden
9677 Posts

Posted - 08/11/2008 :  14:33:43   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Send Dr. Mabuse an ICQ Message Send Dr. Mabuse a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Swedish correspondents north of the border interviewed several S. Ossetian refugees, who reported that Georgian army were firing on civilian targets like schools and hospitals and generally didn't separate between civilian and military targets.
Now, that truly is stupid. It gives the Russians a humanitarian reason for military intervetion.
On the other hand, I don't find it surprising considering that Georgian army has had American troops, training, and "advisors" for a few years now.
Business as usual.


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filthy
SFN Die Hard

USA
14408 Posts

Posted - 08/11/2008 :  15:44:18   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send filthy a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Well, I hear that Bush is now on his way home. I really can't decide if that's a good thing or not.

But whatever, if there ever was a time to do a little authoritative, third-party diplomacy, it's now. Fat chance, eh?

Doc, having seen it, I would not take the word of refugees as read. Like everyone else, they tend to streach it a bit, particularly those who have been under extreme stress. Which, no doubt these have. I've no doubt that there is some veracity in their statements -- hell, that's war and real shit happens in wars -- but it is open to question as to how much and the intent.




"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)

"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres


"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude

Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,

and Crypto-Communist!

Edited by - filthy on 08/11/2008 15:49:59
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filthy
SFN Die Hard

USA
14408 Posts

Posted - 08/11/2008 :  16:10:55   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send filthy a Private Message  Reply with Quote
A little background:
Three days after the former Soviet republic of Georgia launched a military assault aimed at reclaiming the breakaway province of South Ossetia, a bellicose Russia is defending the artillery and bombing campaign it began against Georgia in response. In defying pleas from the West for a cease-fire, Russia isn't just protecting its interests in South Ossetia, where most of the 70,000 residents are ethnic Russians and carry Russian passports.

Moscow's aggressive response to Georgia's assault not only driving Georgian troops out of South Ossetia but also bombing the Georgian capital of Tblisi suggests Russia could be using the conflict to test how far the United States and Europe will go to defend Georgia. The former Soviet republic has won allies in the West by moving toward a democratic government; its troops have been trained by Americans.



"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)

"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres


"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude

Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,

and Crypto-Communist!

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Chippewa
SFN Regular

USA
1496 Posts

Posted - 08/11/2008 :  16:45:21   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Chippewa's Homepage Send Chippewa a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Now if McCain steps forward and says: "I have a solution my friends...the Russians do this, the Georgians do that...oil pipeline agreement...blah blah...compensation...with honor...my friends..." then Putin says (figuratively) "Oh my McCainsky, you are so right. We leave Georgia now." Then you'll know it was all a ploy engineered by Cheney and Putin to make Obama look "inexperienced" and put McCain in the White House.

Joking aside, the Russians are likely not thinking at all about American politics. Maybe they just want to get their hands on the major Georgian oil pipelines.

Anecdotally, with regard to Russia and US politics, through the cold war Russia traditionally would do something provocative (though not an all-out war,) when a new US President takes office. They're testing to get a reaction.


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Simon
SFN Regular

USA
1992 Posts

Posted - 08/11/2008 :  17:02:43   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Simon a Private Message  Reply with Quote

Joking aside, the Russians are likely not thinking at all about American politics. Maybe they just want to get their hands on the major Georgian oil pipelines.


Indeed. And Putin always had nostalgia for the 'good old days' of the Soviet Union and had wet dreamed about rebuilding the empire.

That fits in this policy...



Anecdotally, with regard to Russia and US politics, through the cold war Russia traditionally would do something provocative (though not an all-out war,) when a new US President takes office. They're testing to get a reaction.


Really? Interesting...

Look again at that dot. That's here. That's home. That's us. On it everyone you love, everyone you know, everyone you ever heard of, every human being who ever was, lived out their lives. The aggregate of our joy and suffering, thousands of confident religions, ideologies, and economic doctrines, every hunter and forager, every hero and coward, every creator and destroyer of civilization, every king and peasant, every young couple in love, every mother and father, hopeful child, inventor and explorer, every teacher of morals, every corrupt politician, every "superstar," every "supreme leader," every saint and sinner in the history of our species lived there on a mote of dust suspended in a sunbeam.
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend

Sweden
9677 Posts

Posted - 08/11/2008 :  20:22:21   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Send Dr. Mabuse an ICQ Message Send Dr. Mabuse a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by filthy
Doc, having seen it, I would not take the word of refugees as read. Like everyone else, they tend to streach it a bit, particularly those who have been under extreme stress. Which, no doubt these have.

True, some skepticism is called for.

I've no doubt that there is some veracity in their statements -- hell, that's war and real shit happens in wars -- but it is open to question as to how much and the intent.

Also true, but even if the schools and day care centers weren't all-out flattened, a few artillery shells at a couple of places are still unacceptable, and gives Russia the pretext they need to claim humanitarian reasons for moving in the tanks...


Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3

"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse

Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder.
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Zeked
Skeptic Friend

USA
90 Posts

Posted - 08/11/2008 :  23:58:43   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Zeked a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Best analysis I've found.
http://www.antiwar.com/justin/?articleid=13285

Seems to be an orchestrated diversion while the US moves the navy into the Persian gulf for an attack on Iran. But that is an obvious armchair quarterback guess.

The US support of Georgia with weapons and training has been substantial, and it is also in direct violation of an agreement with the former USSR that the US not engage in such actions.

What I know for certain is the major US news reporting on this war indicates a bias against Russia that lacks credibility. Condemnation of Georgia for instigating the Ossetia attack and the massive slaughter of civilians is serously lacking, and very telling. US media is attempting polarization of the event to the consuming public without critical review of the circumstances.

I am unacustomed to US media, so please excuse my overt repulsion. NY Times reports Georgia is a "bastion of Democracy". What total rubish.
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tomk80
SFN Regular

Netherlands
1278 Posts

Posted - 08/12/2008 :  01:56:52   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit tomk80's Homepage Send tomk80 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
It'll be interesting to see what the Western reaction is going to be. With the unilateral support for the independence of Kosovo, a similar recognition of South Ossetia would seem appropriate. It would at least be consistent. Though somehow I doubt this is going to be forthcoming.

Tom

`Contrariwise,' continued Tweedledee, `if it was so, it might be; and if it were so, it would be; but as it isn't, it ain't. That's logic.'
-Through the Looking Glass by Lewis Caroll-
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filthy
SFN Die Hard

USA
14408 Posts

Posted - 08/12/2008 :  04:48:56   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send filthy a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Seems it might be slacking off....
MOSCOW - Russian President Dmitry Medvedev ordered a halt to military action in Georgia on Tuesday, after five days of air and land attacks that took Russian forces deep into its small U.S.-allied neighbor in the Caucasus.

Medvedev said on national television that the military had punished Georgia enough for its attack on South Ossetia. Georgia launched an offensive late Thursday to regain control over the separatist Georgian province, which has close ties to Russia.

"The security of our peacekeepers and civilians has been restored," Medvedev said. "The aggressor has been punished and suffered very significant losses. Its military has been disorganized."

The Russian president, however, said he ordered the military to defend itself and quell any signs of Georgian resistance.
Maybe.... What a fucking mess!






"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)

"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres


"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude

Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,

and Crypto-Communist!

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chaloobi
SFN Regular

1620 Posts

Posted - 08/12/2008 :  05:12:07   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Send chaloobi a Yahoo! Message Send chaloobi a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Dr. Mabuse

Swedish correspondents north of the border interviewed several S. Ossetian refugees, who reported that Georgian army were firing on civilian targets like schools and hospitals and generally didn't separate between civilian and military targets.
Now, that truly is stupid. It gives the Russians a humanitarian reason for military intervetion.
On the other hand, I don't find it surprising considering that Georgian army has had American troops, training, and "advisors" for a few years now.
Business as usual.


Sounds very propagandish to me. And to my knowledge, US troops arn't trained to attack civilians.

-Chaloobi

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chaloobi
SFN Regular

1620 Posts

Posted - 08/12/2008 :  05:57:31   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Send chaloobi a Yahoo! Message Send chaloobi a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by tomk80

It'll be interesting to see what the Western reaction is going to be. With the unilateral support for the independence of Kosovo, a similar recognition of South Ossetia would seem appropriate. It would at least be consistent. Though somehow I doubt this is going to be forthcoming.
I'll bet the West won't do anything. As of this posting the Russians have declared they will stop attacking and have demanded the Georgian president step down. I'd be surprised if the attacks have stopped and I will be surprised if the President doesn't step down in the near future. I think this whole thing is about Russia letting the former soviet republics know whose ass they have to kiss and why.

-Chaloobi

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tomk80
SFN Regular

Netherlands
1278 Posts

Posted - 08/12/2008 :  06:11:38   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit tomk80's Homepage Send tomk80 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by chaloobi
I'll bet the West won't do anything. As of this posting the Russians have declared they will stop attacking and have demanded the Georgian president step down. I'd be surprised if the attacks have stopped and I will be surprised if the President doesn't step down in the near future. I think this whole thing is about Russia letting the former soviet republics know whose ass they have to kiss and why.

Very likely.

Tom

`Contrariwise,' continued Tweedledee, `if it was so, it might be; and if it were so, it would be; but as it isn't, it ain't. That's logic.'
-Through the Looking Glass by Lewis Caroll-
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