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 Obama vs McCain at Lake Forest
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Orwellingly Yurz
SFN Regular

USA
529 Posts

Posted - 08/16/2008 :  19:49:50  Show Profile Send Orwellingly Yurz a Private Message  Reply with Quote

OY: Impression of Obama and McCain at Lake Forest....

McCain: simple, impulsive, rigid, doctrinaire, insensitive, militaristic, braggadocio

Obama: thoughtful, communicative, humble, compassionate, intelligent, focused, religious

McCain's most Christian answer was agreeing to help orphans.

Obama's most Christian answer was his mention of Christ's quote about 'helping the least of these.'

Obama talked more about religion using religion jargon more often than did McCain.

McCain played to the seats. Obama was engaged in a conversation with the pastor of the church.

McCain was interrupted more often by applause, but when Obama received applause it was more intense.
(I've got a good ear for sound.)

McCain is hot; Obama is cool.

Let the cooler heads prevail, would be my recommendation.

OY !

"The modern conservative...is engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy. That is the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness."
--John Kenneth Galbraith

If dogs run free
Then what must be,
Must be...
And that is all
--Bob Dylan

The neo-cons have gotten welfare for themselves down to a fine art.
--me

"The meek shall inherit the earth, but not the mineral rights."
--J. Paul Getty

"The great thing about Art isn't what it give us, but what we become through it."
--Oscar Wilde

"We have Art in order not to die of life."
--Albert Camus

"I cling like a miser to the freedom I lose when surrounded by an abundance of things."
--Albert Camus

"Experience is the name so many people give to their mistakes."
--Oscar Wilde

bngbuck
SFN Addict

USA
2437 Posts

Posted - 08/16/2008 :  21:18:37   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send bngbuck a Private Message  Reply with Quote
To an objective, reasoning person, Obama triumphs hands down!

To a dogmatic, rigid, doctrinal personality type; McCain is the victor! Like God, JC, and the bible, he had the answer to most questions before Warren even stopped speaking!

I don't think either of them particularly swayed the undecided, "independent" vote - maybe Obama by a small margin!

Other views?
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Dude
SFN Die Hard

USA
6891 Posts

Posted - 08/16/2008 :  22:18:46   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Dude a Private Message  Reply with Quote
McCain probably gave the best performance of his campaign.

But: "this country was founded on judaeo-christian values..."

No it wasn't you asshole!


The only thing really memorable about this is that neither candidate left any really good six second sound bites for the opposition to play out of context. I'm sure some comments will be taken out of context, but those who do will have to construct fairly elaborate strawmen to do it.


I though their "least favorite SCOTUS justice" answers were telling. McCain managed to deliver the old "no legislating from the bench" line, and praised Alito! FFS.... 8 years ago McCain would have called Alito an "agent of intolerance". Dirty fucking sellout. I say that only because I would have voted for McCain in 2000 without much hesitation. To bad he crawled into bed with the goatfuckers who hated him so bad in y2k.

I'm with McCain on nuclear power. It can be done with no meltdown reactors (literally impossible for them to melt, even with the colling systems 100% off) and we can contain/reprocess the waste much better now. Obama should come over on this issue. On offshore drilling... it takes more than 15 seconds to explain that there are already an assload of places open for drilling that are not being drilled. That it will take 5 years to build a single new rig and get any oil flowing. That the total impact in ten years would be LESS than the total impact of everyone properly inflating their tires... say nothing of the fact that this oil would go into the global market for purchase, it would not be exclusively for domestic use.

Orphans... well, if we hadn't eradicated all the pirates... Ok, this could be a worthy cause. Right behind feeding and immunizing and educating every child in the world. Where are the priorities of these people? Yeah, its fucking horrible. From a greater good pov I think finding families for orphans (while noble) is lower on the list than feeding, immunizing, and educating children.


Overall: The faith bullshit annoys me to no end. The fact that politicians have to pander to this stupidity is fucking pathetic. No sane person can read Jefferson, Adams, Franklin, or Washington and come away with the impression that they were christian or that they were using some judaeo-christian model for our constitution.


Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson

"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin

Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth
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the_ignored
SFN Addict

2558 Posts

Posted - 08/18/2008 :  00:28:15   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send the_ignored a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Speaking of debates, guess where they're having one of them?

>From: enuffenuff@fastmail.fm
(excerpt follows):
> I'm looking to teach these two bastards a lesson they'll never forget.
> Personal visit by mates of mine. No violence, just a wee little chat.
>
> **** has also committed more crimes than you can count with his
> incitement of hatred against a religion. That law came in about 2007
> much to ****'s ignorance. That is fact and his writing will become well
> know as well as him becoming a publicly known icon of hatred.
>
> Good luck with that fuckwit. And Reynold, fucking run, and don't stop.
> Disappear would be best as it was you who dared to attack me on my
> illness knowing nothing of the cause. You disgust me and you are top of
> the list boy. Again, no violence. Just regular reminders of who's there
> and visits to see you are behaving. Nothing scary in reality. But I'd
> still disappear if I was you.

What brought that on? this. Original posting here.

Another example of this guy's lunacy here.
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Dude
SFN Die Hard

USA
6891 Posts

Posted - 08/18/2008 :  08:42:31   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Dude a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Ig, that is the topic of this thread. It wasn't a debate though, it was an hour long interview.


Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson

"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin

Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth
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Vic Daring
New Member

49 Posts

Posted - 08/18/2008 :  12:38:38   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Vic Daring a Private Message  Reply with Quote
McCain also made sure to hit the "Moment of Conception" talking point.

What a "maverick" this guy is.

The man in black fled across the desert, and the gunslinger followed.
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Dude
SFN Die Hard

USA
6891 Posts

Posted - 08/18/2008 :  18:32:39   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Dude a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Yeah, he is in full pander mode.


Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson

"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin

Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth
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Orwellingly Yurz
SFN Regular

USA
529 Posts

Posted - 08/18/2008 :  21:13:19   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Orwellingly Yurz a Private Message  Reply with Quote
YO: More thoughts on Pastor Rick's Saddleback Sessions.

The hoopla that's transpired since Saturday evening's meetup with Pastor Rick is curious, to say the least. Pundits are a'twitter
that McSame was so quick and simple with his answers that pushback has had to be blownback from the Obamakins to reveal a possibility that Arizona Johnny was likely eavesdropping on the first half of the show. Whether he was or not makes little difference to Orwellingly Yurz.

McSame's bragging commentary of himself, his implusiveness, his tearing-up jag, his bombast all show how emotional he is whether he knew what queries Pastor Rick was coming at him with or not.

McSame played the audience with his ridiculous "my friends" patter while Obama was locked in a serious conversation with the host.

Much a-fucking-do about nothing again, again and again.

With the terrain shifting so rapidly in Georgia, Pakistan and Iraq, we need, ASAP, to get competent people leading this country and remodeling Bush Jr's house of cards of folly that's now in a slo-mo tumble as the nation approaches, as bumperstickers say, "The End of an ERROR." And, of course, the continuing trouble in Afghanistan and Iran proves that there's nothing that Mr. Bush hasn't fucked-up for us.

OY!


"The modern conservative...is engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy. That is the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness."
--John Kenneth Galbraith

If dogs run free
Then what must be,
Must be...
And that is all
--Bob Dylan

The neo-cons have gotten welfare for themselves down to a fine art.
--me

"The meek shall inherit the earth, but not the mineral rights."
--J. Paul Getty

"The great thing about Art isn't what it give us, but what we become through it."
--Oscar Wilde

"We have Art in order not to die of life."
--Albert Camus

"I cling like a miser to the freedom I lose when surrounded by an abundance of things."
--Albert Camus

"Experience is the name so many people give to their mistakes."
--Oscar Wilde
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marfknox
SFN Die Hard

USA
3739 Posts

Posted - 08/18/2008 :  22:14:36   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit marfknox's Homepage  Send marfknox an AOL message Send marfknox a Private Message  Reply with Quote
The funny thing is that Obama might be more personally religious and full of faith than McCain, who is just an panderer. I don't mind Obama's religiosity and faith because it is clearly the sort of faith that is in-line with freethinking. In other words, humble faith, tempered with doubt, and both tolerant and respectful of other points of view, especially in the policies of government and society. McCain I just plain don't trust.

"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong

Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com

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Zeked
Skeptic Friend

USA
90 Posts

Posted - 08/19/2008 :  00:42:27   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Zeked a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I don't trust either McCain or Obama, but I distrust McCain more every time I hear him speak. This was no exception.

McCain has a severe lack of economic and foreign policy IQ, and a negative temperament for diplomacy. Adding names like Kissinger, Armitage, Kagan and Kristol as foreign policy advisors is ideologically and literally what we already have.

The void that is, (to me), Obama, speaks thoughtfully and claims to champion diplomacy. Seems to be a lapdog to all UN interests and a sucker for "preventative defense".

Neither have credible platforms in my opinion.

The choice is really who will be less likely to keep administrating a failed policy or agenda?
Edited by - Zeked on 08/19/2008 00:47:45
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moakley
SFN Regular

USA
1888 Posts

Posted - 08/19/2008 :  05:07:26   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send moakley a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by marfknox

The funny thing is that Obama might be more personally religious and full of faith than McCain, who is just an panderer. ...
I have wondered, during the past few months, whether John McCain has used the name or asked for the blessing of God more often in the past year than he had in the previous 20+ years. I fully expect that the answer would be "Yes, by about a 10-1 margin per public appearance." I agree with the "just a panderer" comment.

Life is good

Philosophy is questions that may never be answered. Religion is answers that may never be questioned. -Anonymous
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bngbuck
SFN Addict

USA
2437 Posts

Posted - 08/19/2008 :  11:28:44   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send bngbuck a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Re comments by Marfknox and Moakley.....

The funny thing is that Obama might be more personally religious and full of faith than McCain, who is just an panderer.
I have wondered, during the past few months, whether John McCain has used the name or asked for the blessing of God more often in the past year than he had in the previous 20+ years.
I would wager any asset that I own (including tattered remnants of various body parts) that both McCain and Obama are significantly less religious than Bill Maher is!

A careful reading of his biography fails to reveal any religious influence in his life other than attendance at an Episcopal high school. Perhaps the most telling clue to his lack of religiousity is the following comment on the meaning of faith, taken from his best-seller book, Faith of My Fathers:
Glory belongs to the act of being constant to something greater than yourself, to a cause, to your principles. No misfortune, no injury, no humiliation can destroy it. This is the faith that my commanders affirmed, that my brothers-in-arms encouraged my allegiance to… It was my father and grandfather's faith. A filthy, broken man, all I had left of my dignity was the faith of my fathers. It was enough".
Not a single word of reference to God, Jesus, or any other imaginary deity or power. But listen to the military jargon!

McCain is the quintessential military stereotype. A boundless belief in the efficacy of force, military force, to solve any problem is the essence of his philosophy. His god is the God of War. He worships discipline, regimentation and the application of force; the metaphorical Lion, not the Lamb of Jesus.

McCain is as secular as you or I; only in a aggressive - military force, neither God nor reason, is the answer to the problems of the world - way. His hero is Teddy Roosevelt and the vision of the Roughriders. He does not want to become President; he wants to become The Commander in Chief!

Obama is far too much of a thinking, analytical intellectual to have any superstitious beliefs in flying pink pasta unicorns. He, early on in his political career, understood the power that an authoritarian institution like a influential church can be in opinion manipulation; and used the black church ethos to rapidly move up in Chicago politics - which became an effective springboard into the prime time. His use of religion as a political tool was damaged by the wildly imprudent Jeremiah Wright, but Obama retains a full understanding of the uses of religion as political manipulation.

Of course McCain and Obama are panderers! Pandering is mandatory in political ascension. No politician can possibly succeed in their political ambitions in America without selective pandering to the appropriate power groups. Votes are purchased with promises, either implied or stated, to satisfy a particular need, greed, or desire of a particular constituency. The fact that there are many constituencies and many are at cross-purposes makes the candidacy process a tight-wire act.

Both McCain and Obama are lying their teeth out to the various religious groups they address (and also to the significantly religious American public) with regards to their religiosity. It is pure sham, but absolutely necessary - both to get nominated and particularly to become elected!
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bngbuck
SFN Addict

USA
2437 Posts

Posted - 08/19/2008 :  17:21:52   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send bngbuck a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Dude.....

I'm with McCain on nuclear power. It can be done with no meltdown reactors (literally impossible for them to melt, even with the colling systems 100% off) and we can contain/reprocess the waste much better now. Obama should come over on this issue.
Dude, I gotta tell you, I agree wholeheartedly with you on this issue. Why Obama is stubbornly holding on to an outdated liberal position regarding the supposed adverse environmental effects of nuclear power, I cannot fathom! Maybe the coal industry has gotten through to him with brib campaign money, I'm damned if I know. And if we started now, plants could be on line within 5-8 years, far faster thasn off-shore oil!

Nuclear power is inevitable in the energy mix if we are to get serious about electric transportation. Obama had better get with it on this issue, and soon!

Anyone feel otherwise?
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Zeked
Skeptic Friend

USA
90 Posts

Posted - 08/19/2008 :  21:49:41   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Zeked a Private Message  Reply with Quote
bngbuck

I agree Obama is way off, (delusional), with his energy policy plans. I expected to see "flower power" somwhere in his utopian policy diatribe.

Third generation nuclear plants are much easier to license, cheaper to build, and inherently safe to operate.

McCain has a plan of 45 nuclear energy plants by 2030. Modest and doable.

Somewhere along the way, environmentalist concerns over waste storage and transport have got to give, or nuclear is a non-starter.

Big problem is neither candidate is basing any plan on the reality that the economy will not long sustain the current level of empire shenangins.
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Dude
SFN Die Hard

USA
6891 Posts

Posted - 08/20/2008 :  08:08:10   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Dude a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I wouldn't describe Obama's energy plan as "delusional". It just needs to be refined..... errr...

We need a focus on wind as a primary power source. All we lack is investment in the infrastructure, but wind alone could provide all our electricity needs for the next 250 years.

Then we need a strong push for biofuels. Currently they suck. Corn or sugarbeet ethanol are worse, in the total sum, than oil (because of the nitrogen based fertilizers required to grow them). A national research initiative to improve cellulosic methods of ethanol production is required. We need to be able to turn any plant matter into ethanol with a high degree of efficiency.

We also need to renew and increase the international effort for fusion power. This one is the big one. The current thinking is that its 50 years away... well, lets take 10% of what we spend each year on Iraq and get the world's top 50 high energy physicists together and set them on this problem. My bet is we'd have a working prototype in 10 years. And if not, the money would still be well spent!


Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson

"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin

Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth
Edited by - Dude on 08/20/2008 08:09:04
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Simon
SFN Regular

USA
1992 Posts

Posted - 08/20/2008 :  08:54:05   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Simon a Private Message  Reply with Quote
A quick note on the subject of ethanol.


I know of a few microbiologist colleagues which are working in modifying bacteria so that they can produce ethanol more efficiently. It is not out of the lab yet; far from it, but I am convinced that one day it will be a highly efficient source of biofuels.

Look again at that dot. That's here. That's home. That's us. On it everyone you love, everyone you know, everyone you ever heard of, every human being who ever was, lived out their lives. The aggregate of our joy and suffering, thousands of confident religions, ideologies, and economic doctrines, every hunter and forager, every hero and coward, every creator and destroyer of civilization, every king and peasant, every young couple in love, every mother and father, hopeful child, inventor and explorer, every teacher of morals, every corrupt politician, every "superstar," every "supreme leader," every saint and sinner in the history of our species lived there – on a mote of dust suspended in a sunbeam.
Carl Sagan - 1996
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