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filthy
SFN Die Hard

USA
14408 Posts

Posted - 08/08/2008 :  04:37:35  Show Profile Send filthy a Private Message  Reply with Quote
When I'd read that he'd been IDd, post mortum, I thought it was good. We can close the book on it. But now, I'm not so sure. The evidence, at least that which we've seen, seems a bit inconclusive. And this is, after all, the Bush Administration. Indeed, the more I read about it, the less comfortable I am with the story.
Thursday, August 07, 2008
The "evidence" against Anthrax Guy
John Aravosis (DC) 8/07/2008 08:40:00 PM ET Link
32 Comments reddit FARK Digg It!


Just reading AP's summation of the "evidence" the government has against now-deceased Anthrax Guy, and you get the distinct sense that the government dusted off the old evidence, whited out the word "Iraq" and instead wrote in "Anthrax Guy." It's pretty hilarious.

1. "some colleagues say it would have been difficult, if not impossible, for Ivins to do the conversion unnoticed. The court documents say Ivins was unable to provide 'an adequate explanation for his late laboratory work hours' around the time of the attacks."

I.e., He worked late.
He was a regestered Democrat who sent anthrax to Democrats? Go figger.

Some of the questions I have, aside from: "Why now?" are why did he commit suicide and, as this is the Bush Administration, was it actually suicide? Who benefits from the claim and how? What is the actual evidence not shown to the public? If he is the bona-fied Anthrax Guy, was he alone or did he have help? If he had assistance, who else was involved? Or was he working under orders? If so, whose orders? As he is dead and there will be no defendent for a trial, why is not any information aside from the nonsense noted in the linked article above been forthcoming? And so forth.....

I think that this ain't over; not by a long chalk.




"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)

"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres


"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude

Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,

and Crypto-Communist!

filthy
SFN Die Hard

USA
14408 Posts

Posted - 08/08/2008 :  05:17:00   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send filthy a Private Message  Reply with Quote
A little history, much of which I didn't know about, and a bit of speculation.

"Anthrax Mailings Have Always Been About Facilitating an Illegal Biologic Weapons Program

Posted by McCamy Taylor in General Discussion
Thu Aug 07th 2008, 06:41 PM

Question: Why is has the army been spending time and money trying so damned hard to get its troops immunized against anthrax for so many years (this started years before 9-11) even though the vaccine is riddled with side effects?

Hint: think cost-benefit.

Answer: There is only one answer that makes sense.The US military--which has been conducting anthrax research--wants to be able to use the stuff in battle without killing off its own troops.

McCamy Taylor, Dec 10, 2003 Salon Table Talk, Anthrax Thread

[Link to this page modified - Dave W.]

One thing about the anthrax mailings has not changed since 2001---my theory about why the stuff was mailed to a bunch of prominent politicians and newsmen in envelops with letters warning that the recipients had been exposed so they needed antibiotic treatment.

I have always said that someone in the U.S. government or military was behind the mailings and that the prime purpose was to ensure that the military could continue its anthrax weapons program---which required that all servicemen and women get vaccinated."


It's an interesting read with some good points put forth, if not confirmed.




"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)

"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres


"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude

Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,

and Crypto-Communist!

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Dude
SFN Die Hard

USA
6891 Posts

Posted - 08/08/2008 :  19:39:30   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Dude a Private Message  Reply with Quote
From what I have seen reported, the evidence against this guy was entirely circumstantial. Even the new anthrax DNA analysis that matched the strain to his lab... there were several other people with access.

I'm not really happy with them declaring him guilty by proclamation now that he is dead.


Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson

"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin

Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth
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bngbuck
SFN Addict

USA
2437 Posts

Posted - 08/08/2008 :  21:01:29   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send bngbuck a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Filthy and Dude.....

So what do you suspect? Certainly not that the Bushies themselves engineered the anthrax bugaboo, (possibly hoping to knock off a prominent Democrat or two in addition to frightening the sheep into meek submission to the imposition of draconian "Patriotic Acts" and other dictatorial arrogations of totalitarian power)?

My god, how can you be so unbelievably cynical? It's as if you think the Cheneycrats are capable of anything including murder to achieve their hijacking of the U. S. government!

I'm certainly grateful that my unbending Pollyannish optimism keeps me from having such dark thoughts about our glorious leaders!
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Mycroft
Skeptic Friend

USA
427 Posts

Posted - 08/10/2008 :  08:27:14   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Mycroft a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Uhm, over at the JREF they have a forum specifically for conspiracy theories.
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filthy
SFN Die Hard

USA
14408 Posts

Posted - 08/10/2008 :  09:42:35   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send filthy a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Mycroft

Uhm, over at the JREF they have a forum specifically for conspiracy theories.
We've got one here, too. But I don't have enough evidence to call it that, nor say definativly that it isn't. It's just that I keep getting a faint smell of dead rat that doesn't come from my pet rattlesnake's breath.

I've recently read that Ivins' mental health was a bit iffy, if not in doubt. Again, I don't know.




"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)

"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres


"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude

Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,

and Crypto-Communist!

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filthy
SFN Die Hard

USA
14408 Posts

Posted - 08/10/2008 :  13:36:42   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send filthy a Private Message  Reply with Quote
My god, how can you be so unbelievably cynical? It's as if you think the Cheneycrats are capable of anything including murder to achieve their hijacking of the U. S. government!

I'm certainly grateful that my unbending Pollyannish optimism keeps me from having such dark thoughts about our glorious leaders!


I am pleased by your truly blind faith in the face of all that is happening around us, Polly, but, I stumbled across a little more: Somebody's lying.

But, but how could such a thing be? Oh. Right......




"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)

"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres


"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude

Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,

and Crypto-Communist!

Edited by - filthy on 08/10/2008 13:42:37
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Mycroft
Skeptic Friend

USA
427 Posts

Posted - 08/10/2008 :  13:57:22   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Mycroft a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by filthy

Originally posted by Mycroft

Uhm, over at the JREF they have a forum specifically for conspiracy theories.
We've got one here, too. But I don't have enough evidence to call it that, nor say definativly that it isn't. It's just that I keep getting a faint smell of dead rat that doesn't come from my pet rattlesnake's breath.

I've recently read that Ivins' mental health was a bit iffy, if not in doubt. Again, I don't know.






Evidence is not required. You only need to have a conspiracy theory.
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filthy
SFN Die Hard

USA
14408 Posts

Posted - 08/10/2008 :  14:15:56   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send filthy a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Mycroft

Originally posted by filthy

Originally posted by Mycroft

Uhm, over at the JREF they have a forum specifically for conspiracy theories.
We've got one here, too. But I don't have enough evidence to call it that, nor say definativly that it isn't. It's just that I keep getting a faint smell of dead rat that doesn't come from my pet rattlesnake's breath.

I've recently read that Ivins' mental health was a bit iffy, if not in doubt. Again, I don't know.






Evidence is not required. You only need to have a conspiracy theory.
A "theory" unsupported by at least some evidence is no more than a conjecture. I have lots of conjectures, some of them pretty far out, but mostly keep them to myself, especially the conspiricy ones. If I should put forth what I might think is a reasonable conjecture, I lable it as such. 'Tis the sacred path of the skeptic.

I'm not at all sure that what we have here is a conspiricy at all -- there are yet many questions to be answered -- but it ain't lookin' good.




"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)

"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres


"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude

Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,

and Crypto-Communist!

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Chippewa
SFN Regular

USA
1496 Posts

Posted - 08/10/2008 :  14:25:21   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Chippewa's Homepage Send Chippewa a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Reporter Gerald Posner offers some insights on Keith Olbermann's show.

Diversity, independence, innovation and imagination are progressive concepts ultimately alien to the conservative mind.

"TAX AND SPEND" IS GOOD! (TAX: Wealthy corporations who won't go poor even after taxes. SPEND: On public works programs, education, the environment, improvements.)
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Dude
SFN Die Hard

USA
6891 Posts

Posted - 08/10/2008 :  14:44:21   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Dude a Private Message  Reply with Quote
bng Polly'd:
So what do you suspect?


I suspect he may have been the guy. But from what I have read the case against him was very weak. So weak that he could have laughed it off with a good lawyer, had the grand jury ever actually brought an indictment. They never did, you know, indict him.

As it stands you can't yet rule out the chance that another person was responsible, or maybe complicit. Not enough evidence.

I'm personally unhappy with the mindset of "Innocent Until Accused". That is what just happened here. The guy was simply post-mortem branded as guilty, on weak evidence, and case closed.

Do I think Bush and Darth Cheney had anything to do with it? Hell no. They CLEARLY wanted to pin it on some brown skinned Ayy-rab though.

SO if there is a conspiracy, its one of trying to twist an already existing circumstance to their benefit. Could be the answer to why the FBI is closing the investigation now. They want it over and media attention away from it. But that is all conjecture.


Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson

"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin

Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth
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chaloobi
SFN Regular

1620 Posts

Posted - 08/11/2008 :  13:03:19   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Send chaloobi a Yahoo! Message Send chaloobi a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Let's see, if I put my conspiracy hat on and I look at a few things through the lense of the upcoming election, like high value detainee trials getting rammed through in Gitmo (though the courts just don't seem to want to cooperate...); the price of oil peaks and begins to drop, the anthrax mystery suddenly solved with a convenient lone suspect suicide... Hmmmm... What are the odds that evidence comes to light that Osama Bin Laden is dead some time before the election? I've been of the opinion he's been dead for years, but there's no good evidence behind that. But if he was dead, and the Bush Administration knew about it, I think it's a fair speculation that they would keep quiet about it until they didn't need that spectre anymore. [/paranoia]

-Chaloobi

Edited by - chaloobi on 08/11/2008 13:05:03
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Dude
SFN Die Hard

USA
6891 Posts

Posted - 08/11/2008 :  21:15:43   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Dude a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Read today that the new DNA evidence that links this anthrax to his lab... also links the strain to 10 other labs. So the potential number of people with access to this strain is now three digits worth.


Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson

"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin

Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth
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chaloobi
SFN Regular

1620 Posts

Posted - 08/12/2008 :  06:02:59   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Send chaloobi a Yahoo! Message Send chaloobi a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Dude

Read today that the new DNA evidence that links this anthrax to his lab... also links the strain to 10 other labs. So the potential number of people with access to this strain is now three digits worth.


Yes yes yes, but this is about the president's legacy, not science or justice. So forget that shit and let the case be closed. The guy's dead, no harm done.

-Chaloobi

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filthy
SFN Die Hard

USA
14408 Posts

Posted - 08/14/2008 :  07:47:22   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send filthy a Private Message  Reply with Quote
The fragrance of rodent grows a little more prominent; indeed, it might soon become the stench of scapegoat.
Hair Samples in Anthrax Case Don't Match
Strands From Mailbox in Princeton Are Not From Ivins, Investigators Say

By Carrie Johnson
Washington Post Staff Writer
Thursday, August 14, 2008; A02



Federal investigators probing the deadly 2001 anthrax attacks recovered samples of human hair from a mailbox in Princeton, N.J., but the strands did not match the lead suspect in the case, according to sources briefed on the probe.

FBI agents and U.S. Postal Service inspectors analyzed the data in an effort to place Fort Detrick, Md., scientist Bruce E. Ivins at the mailbox from which bacteria-laden letters were sent to Senate offices and media organizations, the sources said.

The hair sample is one of many pieces of evidence over which researchers continue to puzzle in the case, which ended after Ivins committed suicide July 29 as prosecutors prepared to seek his indictment.

Authorities released sworn statements and search warrants last week at a news conference in which they asserted that Ivins was their sole suspect. But the materials have not dampened speculation about the merits of the investigative findings and the government's aggressive pursuit of Ivins, a 62-year-old anthrax vaccine researcher. Conspiracy theories have flourished since the 2001 attacks, which killed five people and sickened 17 others.
Would that they could come up with definitive evidence so this thing could be closed forever, but it looks to me, thus far, like Ivins could have beat the rap easily.




"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)

"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres


"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude

Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,

and Crypto-Communist!

Edited by - filthy on 08/14/2008 07:48:21
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chaloobi
SFN Regular

1620 Posts

Posted - 08/14/2008 :  08:24:34   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Send chaloobi a Yahoo! Message Send chaloobi a Private Message  Reply with Quote
A few thoughts:

#1. I hope they did a very thorough autopsy on Ivins to rule out murder.

#2. Conspiracy theorists are going to make hay out of this for decades.

-Chaloobi

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